Parking Lot Bill?

[Worriedman]

Reminds me of something my dad always said..."Your right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins." Dad just seems to get smarter and smarter the older I get.

Very astute observations, both of them!

But there you go, using common sense on an emotional issue......

[Fallguy]

Very astute observations, both of them!

But there you go, using common sense on an emotional issue......

LOL

Hard for some to compute that, isn't it?

[Guest canynracer]

Privilege, you say. I always thought the Second Amendment was a Constitutional right.

In TN it is a priviledge....you pay for your permit, the mere fact that you NEED the permit tells you that. I hear ya, it sucks, but its a reality.

[Worriedman]

In TN it is a priviledge....you pay for your permit, the mere fact that you NEED the permit tells you that. I hear ya, it sucks, but its a reality.

TN Constitution Art. I, section 26 states: “ That the citizens of this state have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.â€

The Legislature can restrict that right with a view to preventing crime, but it is by the very nature of this section of our State Constitution, a right!

Then there is that little niggling problem of the Federal 2nd Amendment.

[Fallguy]

Ok, in TN it's a right on private property and a privilege in public.

[Guest canynracer]

TN Constitution Art. I, section 26 states: “ That the citizens of this state have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.”

The Legislature can restrict that right with a view to preventing crime, but it is by the very nature of this section of our State Constitution, a right!

Then there is that little niggling problem of the Federal 2nd Amendment.

And my post was stating that we do NOT have a RIGHT to CARRY...but alas, my buddy Fallguy said it best...I have a RIGHT to CARRY my gun to the mailbox, provided I do NOT step in the PUBLIC street to get the mail out of it. To GET the mail...I need to BUY the PRIVILEDGE.

and I get DRMs argument now...

the Federal 2A...hmmm....soooo, when the Federal Government decides to BAN guns and do away with the Federal 2A....you will say, "I dont care, my STATE'S Constitution says I can!!"

LMAO..

[K191145]

Fallguy, you seem to be well informed on these legal matters so I ask, does any private company have any right to conduct a serach of your privatly owned vehicle for any reason if it's parked on their property?

[Guest canynracer]

If it is in the handbook, and you signed it, you agreed to the search...of course, you can deny them access, but pack your desk before you do... LOL

[Fallguy]

Fallguy, you seem to be well informed on these legal matters so I ask, does any private company have any right to conduct a serach of your privatly owned vehicle for any reason if it's parked on their property?

My buddy canynracer answered it fairly well.

Depending on where you work, you probably consented to a search of your vehicle when you were first employed, signed your handbook or the like.

But if you have not consented to a search, then IMO no, they can not legally search your vehicle. Even if you have consented, you can still refuse, but as canynracer said, you will probably be terminated.

Or let's say you are driving on to the property and they want to search your vehicle...again you can say no, but they can also then refuse you entry to the property.

So while you may can keep them from searching, the outcome may not be that good anyway.

[Worriedman]

And my post was stating that we do NOT have a RIGHT to CARRY...but alas, my buddy Fallguy said it best...I have a RIGHT to CARRY my gun to the mailbox, provided I do NOT step in the PUBLIC street to get the mail out of it. To GET the mail...I need to BUY the PRIVILEDGE.

and I get DRMs argument now...

the Federal 2A...hmmm....soooo, when the Federal Government decides to BAN guns and do away with the Federal 2A....you will say, "I dont care, my STATE'S Constitution says I can!!"

LMAO..

So, prior to the State of TN passing a law to allow concealed carry, you feel that there was no right to be armed?

Maybe I am dense again, but the way I read the Constitution of TN, I have the right, the Legislature has the ability (by law) to regulate that right to prevent crime, no where do I read it saying anything in the Constitution about a privilege.

I have a RIGHT to CARRY my gun to the mailbox, provided I do NOT step in the PUBLIC street to get the mail out of it.

You and I own the street, why would my passage from my private property to the street bear on my ability to carry my weapon? It is not owned by another private entity, it is our property too.

the Federal 2A...hmmm....soooo, when the Federal Government decides to BAN guns and do away with the Federal 2A....you will say, "I dont care, my STATE'S Constitution says I can!!"

And, if the Federal government should decide to ban guns, (overstepping their authority by the attempt) and do away with the 2nd Amendment, the rest of the Bill of Rights is gone as well, and we have a whole 'nuther problem. I would like to know what YOU are going to say when and if that occurs. Heller says I have an individual Right to own and bear a weapon for my personal defense.

If you think that is a reason to laugh, you and I have a far different view of our nation, and what is the gift to us bought by blood and treasure spent by our Founders, and, all the good men who haver served to keep our freedoms over the years since that founding.

I have no idea why you have a beef with me, can not think of a thing I have said or done since my arrival on this site to to garner you derision. I have spent a lot of time learning the actual laws, speaking with my legislators, interfacing with local LE, attempting to raise awareness of vital issues relative to our freedom in my acquaintances and community. I am searching every venue of approach to raise up and bolster the Rights my progenitors labored and bled for. Gaining knowledge in the most effective methods of communication from professionals where I can, (started with the NRA), found a few folks who feel like I do, that it is my absolute responsibility to do all I can to protect the future of my Country, and my children by making sure the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not taken away.

You can poke, prod and denigrate any discussion I am a part of if it makes you feel better about yourself, but I will continue to ask questions, and on occasion voice an opinion, till the time the Administrators ask me to leave.

[Worriedman]

Privilege-is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a government or other authority to a restricted group.

Rights are permissions, usually of a legal or moral nature, granted by government to individuals.

Our Carry Permit is an expressly formulated criteria, enumerated by the Legislature in it's purvey of restrictions on bearing arms in State of Tennessee with a view to preventing crime. It authorizes individuals who do not fail the established norms to carry a concealed weapon, all who satisfy the stated criteria shall be issued that permit if they apply for it. The stated rules are all exceptions; felonies, failure to pay child support, receipt of an order of protection etc., which restrict the individual's right to carry if they have any of these marks against them.

At least that is how I read the dictionary. I am sure there are other opinions.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Worriedman

[Guest canynracer]

OK, I'll play

So, prior to the State of TN passing a law to allow concealed carry, you feel that there was no right to be armed?.

Where in my posts do I say that? In fact, lets review...

I said:

Privilege, you say. I always thought the Second Amendment was a Constitutional right.

In TN it is a priviledge....you pay for your permit, the mere fact that you NEED the permit tells you that. I hear ya, it sucks, but its a reality.

As you can clearly see, I simply replied to the question of a member. I further that by stating "I hear ya, it sucks...."

Maybe I am dense again, but the way I read the Constitution of TN, I have the right, the Legislature has the ability (by law) to regulate that right to prevent crime, no where do I read it saying anything in the Constitution about a privilege.

You have the right to Keep and bear arms... The legislature can and does stop you from WEARING it in public.

Lets look at some definitions:

Right: S: (n) human right ((law) any basic right or freedom to which all human beings are entitled and in whose exercise a government may not interfere (including rights to life and liberty as well as freedom of thought and expression and equality before the law))

and now

Priviledge: S: (n) privilege (a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all)

See, you do not have the RIGHT to drive...its a priviledge. Same with your HCP. Like I said, it sucks, but reality.

You and I own the street, why would my passage from my private property to the street bear on my ability to carry my weapon? It is not owned by another private entity, it is our property too.

interesting...than why the speed limits?

And, if the Federal government should decide to ban guns, (overstepping their authority by the attempt) and do away with the 2nd Amendment, the rest of the Bill of Rights is gone as well, and we have a whole 'nuther problem.

Agreed

I would like to know what YOU are going to say when and if that occurs. Heller says I have an individual Right to own and bear a weapon for my personal defense.

irrelevant what if scenario... You and I will BOTH know when that time comes...armchair quarterbacking with my tinfoil hat on and speaking out about "my cold dead hands" is not going to make me feel any better.

If you think that is a reason to laugh, you and I have a far different view of our nation, and what is the gift to us bought by blood and treasure spent by our Founders, and, all the good men who haver served to keep our freedoms over the years since that founding.

What I am laughing at has NOTHING to do with our country, or its founders, and again, I never ONCE questioned the folks protecting the freedoms we enjoy, whether those freedoms or rights, or priviledges. but thanks for the history lesson.

I have no idea why you have a beef with me, can not think of a thing I have said or done since my arrival on this site to to garner you derision.

umm...you need to go back and check who stated this conversation. Also, I have not beed seeking you out, or beating you down. This site is known for active debates, and strong opinions. If you dont have thick enough skin for someone to disagree with you, there is nothing I can do about that. I think I am fairly laid back, and I certainly dont force things on anyone. There are a lot of folks on this board that are smarter than me while they sleep. There are also a lot on this board that wear their tin foil a little too tight, and call for a revolution/succession because of things they THINK they know. I am neither.

I have spent a lot of time learning the actual laws, speaking with my legislators, interfacing with local LE, attempting to raise awareness of vital issues relative to our freedom in my acquaintances and community. I am searching every venue of approach to raise up and bolster the Rights my progenitors labored and bled for. Gaining knowledge in the most effective methods of communication from professionals where I can, (started with the NRA), found a few folks who feel like I do, that it is my absolute responsibility to do all I can to protect the future of my Country, and my children by making sure the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not taken away.

And this is appreciated, and welcome. But lets not assume for one second that 98% of the folks on this board, dont think the same, or do any less than you do defend what we have, uniformed or not.

You can poke, prod and denigrate any discussion I am a part of if it makes you feel better about yourself, but I will continue to ask questions, and on occasion voice an opinion, till the time the Administrators ask me to leave.

Again, show me WHERE I poked fun at you...

and remember, you initiated the discussion with me.

Enjoy your day.

Edited June 26, 2009 by canynracer

[strickj]

You do no own the street. The public does. You are not the public.

The public is a whole of the people.

The people have the say as a whole as to what happens in these public places.

If the public says you can not speed on a public road,then you can not speed and expect to get out of the tocket by saying"but officer,I this is my road,I can do as I wish."

[Guest canynracer]

Privilege-is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a government or other authority to a restricted group.

Rights are permissions, usually of a legal or moral nature, granted by government to individuals.

Our Carry Permit is an expressly formulated criteria, enumerated by the Legislature in it's purvey of restrictions on bearing arms in State of Tennessee with a view to preventing crime. It authorizes individuals who do not fail the established norms to carry a concealed weapon, all who satisfy the stated criteria shall be issued that permit if they apply for it. The stated rules are all exceptions; felonies, failure to pay child support, receipt of an order of protection etc., which restrict the individual's right to carry if they have any of these marks against them.

At least that is how I read the dictionary. I am sure there are other opinions.

Your permit is special entitlement or immunity granted by a government after you PAY for it and pass a background check.

if it was a right, you wouldnt need it.

[Worriedman]

Being one of "We The People" I own a part of the street, as much as anybody else. (As long as I pay my taxes, and stay outside the confines of the cross bar motel for failure to do so) When it comes time to repair it, or build a new one, I get a portion of the bill.

My elected Representatives either set the speed limits, or appoint who does, and they should be responsive to the will of their constituents. The constituents are the final arbiters. If in fact, the representatives fail to provide good and accepted rules, they are changed, or well should be.

In essence all public officials, departments and employees work for the People. I think that is the problem anymore, it seems that they think they are the bosses. The ones who write the checks should be in charge!

[E4 No More]

You do no own the street. The public does. You are not the public.

The public is a whole of the people.

The people have the say as a whole as to what happens in these public places.

If the public says you can not speed on a public road,then you can not speed and expect to get out of the tocket by saying"but officer,I this is my road,I can do as I wish."

It goes even further than your example. Look up the Tennessee's reckless driving law and how it extends to private property.

[Worriedman]

Your permit is special entitlement or immunity granted by a government after you PAY for it and pass a background check.

if it was a right, you wouldnt need it.

The permit is simply a document that proves to LE that you have a defense against the restriction against going armed.

Passing the background check is to verify the fact that you have not failed any of the parameters, it is the result of the "power" given the Legislature to restrict the right.

No matter how you slice or dice it, it is still a right. Says so, right there in the Constitution. Where do you read privilege?

Even in the Federal 2nd amendment, it is called a right, it was so important to the framers that they intended to to be a right, was not then, nor is it now named a privilege.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Worriedman

[Fallguy]

The permit is simply a document that proves to LE that you have a defense against the restriction agaisnt going armed.

Passing the background check is to verify the fact that you have not failed any of the parameters, it is the result of the "power" given the Legislature to restrict the right.

No matter how you slice or dice it, it is still a right. Says so, right there in the Constitution. Where do you read privilege?

One reason is....because if it was a right you could carry without a permit and it would be up the government to prove you were not permitted to own/carry a handgun instead of you having to prove you are.

You should not have to give money and time to the government to exercise a right.

I think 99.99% of us on here believe it was the intent of the founding fathers in the Second Amendment to grant each of us the un-infringed right to bear arms. However over the years Congress, SCOTUS and state legislatures have eaten away at that right.

...and we (as a whole) have allowed them to.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Fallguy

[Worriedman]

I think 99.99% of us on here believe it was the intent of the founding fathers in the Second Amendment to grant each of us the un-infringed right to bear arms. However over the years Congress, SCOTUS and state legislatures have eaten away at that right.

...and we (as a whole) have allowed them to.

You get an "Amen" from me on that statement.

Kind of my point on the whole discussion, both the TN Constitution, and the 2nd Amendment call it a "Right". Allowing the Government, be it State or Federal to erode that into a "privilege" standing is not good.

It was important enough to our Founders and framers to name it a "Right", we should honor their wishes and continue to demand that it remains such.

That the Legislature has the "power" granted by the Constitution to restrict it can not be denied, it is printed there for all to see, but, it must remain viewed as a right, and we should continually remind those who we pay to exercise that "power" that it is.

[Fallguy]

You get an "Amen" from me on that statement.

Kind of my point on the whole discussion, both the TN Constitution, and the 2nd Amendment call it a "Right". Allowing the Government, be it State or Federal to erode that into a "privilege" standing is not good.

It was important enough to our Founders and framers to name it a "Right", we should honor their wishes and continue to demand that it remains such.

That the Legislature has the "power" granted by the Constitution to restrict it can not be denied, it is printed there for all to see, but, it must remain viewed as a right, and we should continually remind those who we pay to exercise that "power" that it is.

I do see your point.

I don't think when anyone on here says "privilege" they are taking a shot at the founding fathers and agree mostly with what you say. It is simply their way of saying that in their opinion the government has eroded the right, through legislation, into more of a privilege.

[Worriedman]

It should not have to give money and time to the government to exercise a right.

If you want to peaceably assemble, and protest a certain issue in front of the Capital Building, you may be required to purchase a permit to gather there. Does that change your Right to Free Speech to a privilege? They will tell you that there is need for security, and that the permit fee helps defray that cost for them, for you to be there and exercise your right. Our Governments will tax our last breath if we will stand for it.

Part of the restriction relative to the HCP is the background check, it validates that you have not committed any of the offenses that preclude satisfying the criteria, the fee you pay is to defray that cost. Every Bill that is acted upon has a fiscal note, there are cost to the Government for all it's actions.

[Glock30Owner]

I have really mixed feelings on this bill, and to be honest - my view remains that property owner rights should trump your gun carry rights... period.

IMHO, better legislation would be to simply make illegal to fire or otherwise punish someone for carrying on your property. If the law could be written where the property owner's only recourse is to request that the gun be removed from their property - and not fire you, or otherwise punish you - I think that would be a good law to have.

But again - I have to view this as a property rights issue, and if I own a piece of property, I think it is WRONG for the government to be able to tell me I *have* to let you bring a gun on my property, if I don't want one there.

I tend to agree with the single exception of a company that has been given tax incentives. They should be forced to allow whatever the state deems until those incentives expire.

[Worriedman]

See, you do not have the RIGHT to drive...its a priviledge. Same with your HCP. Like I said, it sucks, but reality.

interesting...than why the speed limits?

No mention of it as a right in the Constitution either.

I have a RIGHT to CARRY my gun to the mailbox, provided I do NOT step in the PUBLIC street to get the mail out of it. To GET the mail...I need to BUY the PRIVILEDGE.

That is your response to my post, the one I was replying to.

You have the right to Keep and bear arms... The legislature can and does stop you from WEARING it in public.

Correct, they are given, by the Constitution the power to restrict that right, with a view to preventing crime. If we let them overstep those bounds, shame on us.

Priviledge: S: (n) privilege (a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all)

See, you do not have the RIGHT to drive...its a priviledge.

I agree, as there is no mention of a right to drive in the Constitution, it is in fact a privilege.

I would like to know what YOU are going to say when and if that occurs. Heller says I have an individual Right to own and bear a weapon for my personal defense.

Was in response to:

the Federal 2A...hmmm....soooo, when the Federal Government decides to BAN guns and do away with the Federal 2A....you will say, "I dont care, my STATE'S Constitution says I can!!"

LMAO..

You intimated you knew what I would say in that scenario, I was interested to hear what your thoughts were? Turn about seems fair play to me, just interested, as you brought the subject up. I agree on the tin foil hats and revolution talk, all that is immaterial, and makes us look like rednecks.

If you dont have thick enough skin for someone to disagree with you, there is nothing I can do about that.

No need to worry about that, I have had harsher discourses before, and will again, over matters that are of much more import, in face to face situations. This keyboard jousting ain't that big of a deal.

Again, show me WHERE I poked fun at you...

Originally Posted by Worriedman:

Everyone needs to be aware, that if a property is "Posted", this law, along with HB 0962 still does not give the permit holder, (or LEO except in the performance of their "Official Duty" i.e. investigation of a crime), the right to carry in said establishment"

Wait...you mean, I cant carry my AR with loaded mags into a bar as long as I dont have a round in the chamber?

i kid i kid...thanks.

I like a good debate, and am pretty sure we are on the same side of the big picture here. We just may disagree on some semantics.

[K191145]

If it is in the handbook, and you signed it, you agreed to the search...of course, you can deny them access, but pack your desk before you do... LOL

Well I've never worked for a company that required me to sign any agreement like that, and probably will never work for a company like that.

[Worriedman]

It is simply their way of saying that in their opinion the government has eroded the right, through legislation, into more of a privilege.

I could not put it better myself. On this we have definite concurrence. We should all strive to remind, cajole and pressure them to stem that tide of erosion. A united and concerted effort can work wonders.

Remember all the folks who contacted their congress critters regarding the Immigration Bill? Stopped it dead in it's tracks. The same outpouring of effort can yield benefits if we will get united and let them hear from us. We have more power than it appears. An informed and motivated electorate can wield great power when it gets its dander up!

The coming State elections are ripe for us to gain influence. We must take a page from the successful play book of the last one, grass roots efforts can bring about results, if we are willing to work for them.