Nashville bar owners plan to ban guns

[threeshot]

Nashville bar owners plan to ban guns | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

Nightclubs, fearful of violence and liability, enact own rules in defensive approach to new Tennessee law

By Kate Howard • THE TENNESSEAN • June 16, 2009

At Doc Holliday's Saloon, the sign over the bar that says "Please Check Your Guns at the Door" used to be a part of the décor. Now it's more of a political stance.

Owner Josh Green says his location on Second Avenue is a quiet, mostly local haunt, but he acknowledges that he has shut the bar down on several occasions when violence has heated up a few blocks down. He can't imagine ever willingly letting someone into his bar with a sidearm.

Just up the street, Jessie Lee Jones, the owner of Robert's Western World, says he is worried about armed people with ill intent coming into his bar, but he would feel hypocritical to deny the masses that right since he carries his own firearm most places.

In the wake of a new state law that allows guns where alcohol is served, bar owners across Middle Tennessee are planning to post signs banning firearms from their establishments. The reason is twofold: public safety and concerns over what liability restaurants might have if they don't act and a shooting occurs.

The law goes into effect on July 14.

"This law is creating more problems than it'll alleviate," said Green, who opened his bar last fall. "You have to worry about serving people who are underage, people who drink too much, who want to fight. This doesn't help us."

Though the National Rifle Association now counts 39 states with some type of law allowing guns where alcohol is served, many of those states have protections for business owners built in, protecting them from blame.

The Tennessee legislature may have to pass more laws to protect bars, said Nashville attorney David Raybin. Until that happens, he says, he'd advise clients to post the sign and let someone else be a test case if a shooting were to happen.

"My prudent advice would be that, because you have the capacity to exclude people with firearms, if you don't and someone is injured, you run the risk of a greater liability," Raybin said. "Whether that will pan out as a court holding that way is another matter."

North Carolina tourist Mark Tilley said he isn't worried about Tennessee's new law. The truck driver was visiting this week with his son, Zachary, 8, and they both hunt and use guns. They don't worry about who may be carrying when they are out and about.

But Tilley personally wouldn't bring a gun to a restaurant. He think's it's dangerous.

"We don't want to intimidate anybody," Tilley said. "I try not to carry in public because I know people feel uncomfortable … law enforcement are really the only ones who ought to carry in populated areas."

Group provides signs

All of the business owners Walt Baker has talked to have felt the same way. Baker, CEO of the Tennessee Hospitality Association, said not a single restaurant owner he's spoken with has planned to go along with the new law.

"We're going to be providing signage to our members," Baker said. "We're taking orders."

While many business owners tell him they're worried about safety, the liability issue is the big unknown, Baker said.

"All you have to do is look at the behavior patterns of society," Baker said. "If something happens, you're going to have to hire an attorney. … It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong these days."

There are conflicting reports on how common laws like Tennessee's are in the nation. The National Rifle Association reports that 39 states now have some form of a law that allows carrying weapons in places that serve alcohol. The Legal Community Against Violence reports 22 states have laws that ban the practice.

A law enacted last year in Georgia allows people to carry weapons into establishments that serve alcohol. The Georgia Restaurant Association opposed the law but ensured a provision was included to say that, so long as an owner wasn't aware that something was going to happen, he or she couldn't be held liable if it did.

Owners there are also allowed to post a sign to ban guns if they choose, said Keisha Carter, public affairs director for the Georgia Restaurant Association.

"There really hasn't been an impact one way or another," Carter said. "I can't say 100 percent that we all wanted this or not, but the overwhelming majority didn't want to have to make that choice."

Jones, owner of the Broadway honky-tonk Robert's, says he will give the new law some time. He hopes, in return, the legislature will make a more stringent process to get handgun carry permits.

"I'm willing to oblige, give it a chance and see what happens," Jones said. "But I know the other side of people, the evil side of people. These people should be monitored and evaluated. Before we hand out permits and allow a person to walk into my place of business, I think we should make sure this guy is a person we could trust."

Bar owners outside Nashville are approaching the new law with caution. Pam Barnes has already called to have signs made for Coach's EastGate Grille in Lebanon. Barnes said that in her two years as owner, the bar has called the police only once, and that was because someone skipped on a tab. She'd like to keep it that way.

"It seems like common sense," she said.

At Buster's Place, a Murfreesboro establishment with three decades of history, owner Susan Crockarell definitely plans to ban guns. She has a full house most days, and lots of families who come for burgers.

"We don't ever have any trouble in here, and we don't want to start," she said. "I can't imagine any bar owner wanting guns in there, but that's my own personal opinion."

[Guest KevinM]

But Tilley personally wouldn't bring a gun to a restaurant. He think's it's dangerous.

"We don't want to intimidate anybody," Tilley said. "I try not to carry in public because I know people feel uncomfortable … law enforcement are really the only ones who ought to carry in populated areas."

Man, this point of view is just dangerous.

[Guest eyebedam]

That article got under my skin. I plan on emailing or handwriting a letter to coachs grill & letting them know I will never be there again.

[threeshot]

Man, this point of view is just dangerous.

I agree. The other interesting statements are about liability concerns that are causing owners to post ban firearm signs.

In the wake of a new state law that allows guns where alcohol is served, bar owners across Middle Tennessee are planning to post signs banning firearms from their establishments. The reason is twofold: public safety and concerns over what liability restaurants might have if they don't act and a shooting occurs.

.

.

Though the National Rifle Association now counts 39 states with some type of law allowing guns where alcohol is served, many of those states have protections for business owners built in, protecting them from blame.

The Tennessee legislature may have to pass more laws to protect bars, said Nashville attorney David Raybin. Until that happens, he says, he'd advise clients to post the sign and let someone else be a test case if a shooting were to happen.

.

.

A law enacted last year in Georgia allows people to carry weapons into establishments that serve alcohol. The Georgia Restaurant Association opposed the law but ensured a provision was included to say that, so long as an owner wasn't aware that something was going to happen, he or she couldn't be held liable if it did.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I really have no problem with any bar or restaurant that wants to put a sign out front...just as they are not going to force their gun hating ways on me I am not going to force my gun loving ways on them. As long as I have a choice as to where I can spend my money I have no problem with people expressing their invalid opinion. I just wont be patronizing any of those places(except for the actual bars because I dont go to one of those not to drink so I would never be carrying anyways).

[Guest Revelator]

"My prudent advice would be that, because you have the capacity to exclude people with firearms, if you don't and someone is injured, you run the risk of a greater liability," Raybin said. "Whether that will pan out as a court holding that way is another matter."

This is really the heart of the issue. As they say in the mob, it's nothing personal just business. In other words, maybe what this really comes down to is money. Lawsuits and liability. I think it's more that than politics or ideology. Boycott posted restaurants all you want. Send them letters, whatever. From a financial standpoint they may have realized that it's better to lose the business of a few permit-holders than face multi-million dollar liability.

[Guest mustangdave]

Man, this point of view is just dangerous.

I won't say its not dangerous...but it is becoming common...and its not just the "anti" crowd fomenting the ugliness either...the Average Joe pretty much sees guns as a "tool" for hunting...and feels threatened by handguns. Given the current media driven hyperbol/anti handgun crowd...no amount of "pressure" from card carrying HCP holders is going to sway enough propriators of bars and restaurants to make that much of a difference...some but not a lot...regardless of how the LAW is written. Just my

[Daniel]

I do not mind if bars post. By that I mean an establishment that is primarily supported on liquor/beer/wine sales. I am not for carrying into a bar personally unless working there as staff or a musician. I do mind if restaurants post just because they have a bar area.

[TGO David]

Maybe more gun owners should ban bars. Just think about how much money you would save for better things if you just bought your beer at Kroger or your Jack Daniel's at the package store and responsibly enjoyed it in the comfort and safety of your own home.

Whenever I've been in bars, I've often found myself surrounded by people I didn't like. If I'm having a drink at home, I don't have that problem and I'm not paying 400% markup on a bottle of beer. Sounds like a win-win scenario to me.

[threeshot]

My concern is that restaurants will start posting ban firearms for the same reason that bars are banning firearms. Their biggest concern is liability.<O:p</O:p

[Fallguy]

"My prudent advice would be that, because you have the capacity to exclude people with firearms, if you don't and someone is injured, you run the risk of a greater liability," Raybin said. "Whether that will pan out as a court holding that way is another matter."

This is really the heart of the issue. As they say in the mob, it's nothing personal just business. In other words, maybe what this really comes down to is money. Lawsuits and liability. I think it's more that than politics or ideology. Boycott posted restaurants all you want. Send them letters, whatever. From a financial standpoint they may have realized that it's better to lose the business of a few permit-holders than face multi-million dollar liability.

I agree Pat.

One reform that really needs to be addressed at some point is limiting or eliminating any liability for business owners for the actions of HCP holders on their property.

However if the above happens....I think some liability should attach to a property owner of they do still choose to post and something happens.

[Fallguy]

Also I wonder if the signs being provided by the Tennessee Hospitality Association are in compliance with 39-17-1359 and/or instructions on where/how to post them.

I can see some places posting them up high, almost out of site, inside and think that is a legal posting.

[Bigiron]

Maybe more gun owners should ban bars. Just think about how much money you would save for better things if you just bought your beer at Kroger or your Jack Daniel's at the package store and responsibly enjoyed it in the comfort and safety of your own home.

Whenever I've been in bars, I've often found myself surrounded by people I didn't like. If I'm having a drink at home, I don't have that problem and I'm not paying 400% markup on a bottle of beer. Sounds like a win-win scenario to me.

Excellent post.

[Falcon1]

Also I wonder if the signs being provided by the Tennessee Hospitality Association are in compliance with 39-17-1359 and/or instructions on where/how to post them.

I can see some places posting them up high, almost out of site, inside and think that is a legal posting.

I just looked at their website, and couldn't find anything on the signs they say they are providing. I'll look a little deeper.

ETA: I didn't find anything...perhaps if I registered, I would see more.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Falcon1

[poak]

I was watching "Cocaine Cowboys" last night, it's a documentary on the explosion of the cocaine industry in Miami. It's very interesting. They go into great detail about when the violence between rival cartels and dealers peaked, and shootouts in public places were becoming more and more commonplace. That's when the Miami PD issued a statement. It wasn't "we've got this under control"... it was "We can no longer protect you, we advise you arm yourselves".

I just found that interesting and somewhat relevant. I don't think there is a department in the nation these days that would ever venture to admit they didn't have a situation under control, much less for the public to arm themselves for their own safety.

[Guest justme]

exactly how stupid are people?

Signs WON'T STOP CRIMINALS...these people need to wake up already...

why don't they just post a sign that says this " rapists, mass murderers and thugs of all sizes welcome--we have disarmed the sheep for you...."

idiots..

[Guest KevinM]

Be sure to vote in the poll to the right of the article!!!

Guns on the menu?

<TABLE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 10px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#e7e7cf border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left width="100%">Would you go to a restaurant or bar that allows guns?

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Yes

<TABLE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 3px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="49%">

</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px">49%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

</TD></TR><TR><TD>No

<TABLE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 3px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="48%">

</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px">48%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Total Votes: 87

</TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!--FOOTER-->

<!--ADDITIONAL PHOTOS--><!--ParagraphItems-->About the law

Starting on July 14, handgun owners with valid carry permits will be allowed to bring their weapons into restaurants and bars that serve alcohol, unless the restaurant has posted a sign banning guns. Anyone carrying a weapon is not allowed to drink. Violating the new law carries a fine up to $500.

[Guest justme]

why don't everyone send the reporter a nicely worded email and kindly explain that "guns in bars" was illegal before this bill, and is still illegal under the new bill...the permit holders will only be able to carry into restaurants that serve alcohol...

not that the reporter will care or even take the time to read the emails though...

they really do need to quit fear mongering for a change...

[Guest justme]

double post--sorry.

[Guest gunslinger707]

Maybe more gun owners should ban bars. Just think about how much money you would save for better things if you just bought your beer at Kroger or your Jack Daniel's at the package store and responsibly enjoyed it in the comfort and safety of your own home.

Whenever I've been in bars, I've often found myself surrounded by people I didn't like. If I'm having a drink at home, I don't have that problem and I'm not paying 400% markup on a bottle of beer. Sounds like a win-win scenario to me.

Make's sense to me !!

[TripleDigitRide]

Thank god for liquor stores and escort services. This makes bars obsolete.

[poak]

Whenever I've been in bars, I've often found myself surrounded by people I didn't like.

Sounds like someone's been drinking down on Demonbreun

[BBill_TN]

Not that polls matter a whole lot, but I voted and we are losing 58 to 41 %. Poll is located to the right of the article.

[threeshot]

why don't everyone send the reporter a nicely worded email and kindly explain that "guns in bars" was illegal before this bill, and is still illegal under the new bill...the permit holders will only be able to carry into restaurants that serve alcohol...

not that the reporter will care or even take the time to read the emails though...

they really do need to quit fear mongering for a change...

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:p<S>Tennessee</S></st1:State><S> law does not distinguish between bars and restaurants. Hence, the HCP gun law that will take effect July 14 is for any establishment that serves alcohol to be consumed on-site. Therefore, it will not be illegal once the law takes effect for HCP holders to carry in either a bar or restaurant. The HCP holder cannot drink while carrying.<O:p</O:p</S>

Ops. I did not realize their was a change made to the bill.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/22779-nashville-bar-owners-plan-ban-guns-4.html#post300477

Edited June 17, 2009 by threeshot
Provide correction

[Volzfan]

If an owner of a bar or restaurant legally posts his place of business I was wondering would that also prohibit them from keeping a gun there and being armed themselves?