North Korea and Iran (re: Nuclear Weapons)

[Guest mustangdave]

let them duke it out...then allow Reza to move back into the palace...IF he wants to. He saw how we goat screw'd his dad though...and i hope he has second thoughts

[hkusp40cal]

Err, the US never declared war on North Korea...

Yes that is true, but it was only a political move by the US to call it a police action under the auspices of the United Nations resolutions in order to avoid having congress actually declare war.

[DaveTN]

the country we should be focusing on is the Chinese....

If we quit paying, they may get mad.

Exactly. But selling out my own country and the futures of our children is not my idea of dealing with them. They are prospering at a phenomenal rate (thats how the Global Economy†works. They prosper and we pay for it.) At some point the American people are going to wake up and understand that our economy can never be what it was without our manufacturing.

At that point there may be a problem. “Deal with themâ€? What are you guys suggesting? They have no fear of us. They are equal to us in military might. A war between us and China would be they same thing so many feared for years if there was a war between us and Russia..... There will be no “Winnersâ€.

[leroy]

Exactly. But selling out my own country and the futures of our children is not my idea of dealing with them. They are prospering at a phenomenal rate (thats how the Global Economy†works. They prosper and we pay for it.) At some point the American people are going to wake up and understand that our economy can never be what it was without our manufacturing.

At that point there may be a problem. “Deal with themâ€? What are you guys suggesting? They have no fear of us. They are equal to us in military might. A war between us and China would be they same thing so many feared for years if there was a war between us and Russia..... There will be no “Winnersâ€.

I think you are exactly right. The beginning of dealing with everything, both here and abroad, is to quit this runaway spending and give away of "largesse" to every no count constitutent group in the usa and abroad, the easing of regulation and taxation on the private sector to allow for economic growth, and the teaching of the idea that capitalism is good. If we don't grasp this truth, the country will be reduced to third world status econnomically.

The way to handle foreign relations is to stand by our friends and strike our enemies. As Popeye would say: "Say what we mean and mean what we say." That means we need to carefully think thru what we decide to do it. It also means to finish what we start.

The two abovelisted things are easy to say; but for some reason, hard to accomplish when our neighbors move from next door to become polititians in Washington. That is why it is vitaly important to know the character of those who are sent to the state house to represent us.

When you think thru the situation in america today, it's easy to come to the conclusion that about 3/4's of the state house and congress needs to be swept out. We need to get to sweeping; 2010 is close.

Keep up the good work.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[Guest 44M]

of course--what better way to unite a country than to invade it and become an occupying enemy for the Iranians to focus their attention on....they will almost immediately stop fighting each other and start fighting us....

and what would be the alternative? watch and wait until they have their nukes ready or nuke Israel? I`m not talking full size military invasion but quiet navy seal mission to take care of few "problems"...

Db

[Guest 44M]

Originally Posted by DaveTN

I have always thought that it was pretty ridiculous that we (or the United Nations) think they get to decide who can have nukes and who can’t. A lot of countries have them and we are the only ones that have ever used them.

yes thats true, but how many other countries that have nukes you know , who said that their neighbors don`t have the right to egzist and that they need to be erased from the face of the earth...? not even N.Korea ...

btw... if USA had not used nukes in IIWW, there would have probably been even more people killed, and IIWW might have had a little different ending...

Db

Edited June 30, 2009 by 44M

[DaveTN]

and what would be the alternative? watch and wait until they have their nukes ready or nuke Israel? I`m not talking full size military invasion but quiet navy seal mission to take care of few "problems"...

yes thats true, but how many other countries that have nukes you know , who said that their neighbors don`t have the right to egzist and that they need to be erased from the face of the earth...? not even N.Korea ...

Israel is the hot head over there with their finger on the button. With everyone assuming that they have the backing of the U.S. (I doubt they have the backing of Obama) no one is going to nuke them.

We have no business messing with anyone that wants to have nukes; it is the only deterrent to having boots on your soil. North Korea and Iran both have the ability now to wreak havoc and devastation without using nukes.

The USS Pueblo was attacked, fired on, and a U.S. sailor was killed. It was an act of war and the U.S. did nothing. The Pueblo is still a U.S. Navy commissioned ship and it is a primary tourist attraction in Pyongyang. Does it sound to you like North Korea fears us?

A country not only has the right, but the responsibility to her people to protect them. The United Nations is a joke; a nuclear defense is not.

btw... if USA had not used nukes in IIWW, there would have probably been even more people killed, and IIWW might have had a little different ending...

Oh absolutely. I totally believe we were justified in using nukes on Japan. The ending would have been the same; the body count on our side would have been much higher.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not against nukes…. We should never even think of getting rid of them. Our ballistic submarines are our #1 deterrent to attack because any nation that attacks us knows that they will be devastated; even if they destroy most of our country. Iran or North Korea may play silly games, but they are not going to nuke anyone.... unless they are attacked.

And as much as we believe we did the right thing by nuking Japan; if another country uses a nuke I’m sure they will feel just as strongly that they are doing the right thing.

[Guest justme]

and what would be the alternative? watch and wait until they have their nukes ready or nuke Israel? I`m not talking full size military invasion but quiet navy seal mission to take care of few "problems"...

Db

Iran has never to my knowledge in all of modern times ever preemptively attacked "Israel" Show me any war with Israel since they were founded where Iran has openly and preemptively attacked the Israelis with troops, tanks, aircraft and artillery...

However, the Iraqis have done it numerous times in the last 60 years, so has Syria, so has Egypt, so has many other nations in the middle east...but Iran has never been among them.

You keep worrying about "whatifs"--I don't generally.

We should concentrate on the real threat to the US--China and quit worrying about what Iran wants or does not want...if the US REALLY and LEGITIMATELY wants to get those "wmds"--then I say they should immediately take all 28,000 US troops currently in Korea and attack North Korea--the DPRK admits they have them--it is plain for everyone to see...so why don't we "go get them"?

[Guest justme]

yes thats true, but how many other countries that have nukes you know , who said that their neighbors don`t have the right to egzist and that they need to be erased from the face of the earth...? not even N.Korea ...

And that was the story we were told--but how do we know if it is true? Do you speak fluent Farsi? I don't...all I have to go on is the "official" translation of the statement Ahmadinejad allegedly made...

Ahmadinejad is entitled to his opinion--but he holds no real political power in Iran--the one who does is the Grand Ayatollah...and that man isn't stupid enough to let his country be dragged into a war it can't conceivably win.

Nuclear weapons is a deterrent--it helps prevent another country from launching a war on yours...and it is an internal Iranian decision if they have or want nuclear arms as well--if they do, then it is their national sovereign right to have them...they are a sovereign country after all.

btw... if USA had not used nukes in IIWW, there would have probably been even more people killed, and IIWW might have had a little different ending...

Db

I agree--the original plan called for a full invasion of Tokyo...the casualty estimates ranged into 1,000,000+ men wounded or killed...

[DaveTN]

We should concentrate on the real threat to the US--China

You mean stop the big sucking sound as we hand them our economy, or did you have something else in mind?

It appears to me that most Americans (and most of those that have addressed the issue on this forum) are more than willing to turn sell out the future of their country; as long as they get cheap products.

[Guest justme]

You mean stop the big sucking sound as we hand them our economy, or did you have something else in mind?

It appears to me that most Americans (and most of those that have addressed the issue on this forum) are more than willing to turn sell out the future of their country; as long as they get cheap products.

I mean exactly that we should stop that big sucking sound...we should rewrite the "trade deals" we have with them and demand that they take as much in our products as we do in theirs--and they absolutely flood us with their cheap pieces of trash....and if they refuse--we should cut them off entirely just slightly below the knees--no more products, no more preferred trading status, and we absolutely should NOT sell our "debt" to them...because then they have us...

of course China isn't going to like simply being cut off just below the knees...but that is life...their options would be limited--they could conduct a tit-for-tat and refuse any American products, OR they could attack, or even force the US to attack by the Chinese retaking Taiwan, which they could do very easily, and which the US has vowed to defend against any Chinese attack...

they are or were sucking up oil like it was going out of style..now what do you think would use that much oil--their cars, or their military?

The Chinese are the real threat both militarily and economically...On a downside--a major war with China--and there would be no other kind, would be a lose/lose proposition for both sides...man for man they could not be beaten, and to resort to nuclear weapons would be global devastation....because when the first nuke falls--they will drop like rain...and yet the Chinese are the greatest international threat that the US faces--as for an "upside" to a war with the Chinese--there would be none...the greatest "domestic" threat is our own out of control government.

[DaveTN]

I mean exactly that we should stop that big sucking sound...we should rewrite the "trade deals" we have with them and demand that they take as much in our products as we do in theirs--and they absolutely flood us with their cheap pieces of trash....and if they refuse--we should cut them off entirely just slightly below the knees--no more products, no more preferred trading status, and we absolutely should NOT sell our "debt" to them...because then they have us...

of course China isn't going to like simply being cut off just below the knees...but that is life...their options would be limited--they could conduct a tit-for-tat and refuse any American products, OR they could attack, or even force the US to attack by the Chinese retaking Taiwan, which they could do very easily, and which the US has vowed to defend against any Chinese attack...

they are or were sucking up oil like it was going out of style..now what do you think would use that much oil--their cars, or their military?

The Chinese are the real threat both militarily and economically...On a downside--a major war with China--and there would be no other kind, would be a lose/lose proposition for both sides...man for man they could not be beaten, and to resort to nuclear weapons would be global devastation....because when the first nuke falls--they will drop like rain...and yet the Chinese are the greatest international threat that the US faces--as for an "upside" to a war with the Chinese--there would be none...the greatest "domestic" threat is our own out of control government.

The government can’t be involved. The Chinese would see that as an act of war. The Japanese saw Roosevelt’s oil embargo as an act of war. The result was Pearl Harbor.

However, the American people can do something about it. Not having as big a market is not the same as having it limited by a government.

We can’t expect the government to do our dirty work. We want less government intervention everywhere, but all of a sudden when it comes to us being responsible for what we buy; we want the government to step in and save the day.

You have people like Hillary Clinton running around and telling people that we don’t need manufacturing for a stable economy. That is ignorant at face value but the sheeple are more than willing to buy that because they don’t like the alternative.

Manufacturing pays the bills; they always have. We are seeing now what is going to happen when our manufacturing base is gone. Fire, Police, Big Government; who pays for it? As the manufacturing companies leave so do the massive amounts of money they put into the local infrastructure. As the economy gets worse the need for government services increase. Without manufacturing to pay for those services in the form of American jobs we are left to pay for those services through increases in sales tax, income tax and property taxes.

On gun forums we see a lot of talk about what our founding fathers would have done what they would have wanted, or what great revolutionaries they were. If our economy fails we are done. Do you think they would have bought into the whole “we will all live happily ever after with a global economy†idea. No, they would have had the vision to see where it was headed.

The American people control our economy; not the government. Don’t cry that they aren’t doing their part if you aren’t doing yours.

[Guest justme]

The government can’t be involved. The Chinese would see that as an act of war. The Japanese saw Roosevelt’s oil embargo as an act of war. The result was Pearl Harbor.

Sure they can be involved in a responsible way-require the Chinese to take in as much in $dollar amount of our products and goods as they ship in to us. They won't like it--but what will they do--attack and create total global devastation? Possible, but not likely. What they will do more than likely is simply refuse to take any American made products--in which case the US simply places such a high tariff on imported Chinese junk that it is just unprofitable for companies to bring it in....

However, the American people can do something about it. Not having as big a market is not the same as having it limited by a government.

The American people can do something about it as well yes--but first they have to grow a backbone...and that is unlikely in this increasingly liberalized society...

We can’t expect the government to do our dirty work. We want less government intervention everywhere, but all of a sudden when it comes to us being responsible for what we buy; we want the government to step in and save the day.

It isn't about dirty work--it is about the federal government doing exactly what is is supposed to do. Part of the responsibility of the government is to worry about the US economy and the US interests--instead of allowing the government to worry about the Chinese or the rest of the world.

You have people like Hillary Clinton running around and telling people that we don’t need manufacturing for a stable economy. That is ignorant at face value but the sheeple are more than willing to buy that because they don’t like the alternative.

The people are willing to buy whatever their government tells them--and if the government tells them that manufacturing is not needed--then it must not be needed....What we need is to quit allowing liberals to sell out to foreign interests....

Manufacturing pays the bills; they always have. We are seeing now what is going to happen when our manufacturing base is gone. Fire, Police, Big Government; who pays for it? As the manufacturing companies leave so do the massive amounts of money they put into the local infrastructure. As the economy gets worse the need for government services increase. Without manufacturing to pay for those services in the form of American jobs we are left to pay for those services through increases in sales tax, income tax and property taxes.

Manufacturing can pay the bills-but part of the problem in this country is simply greed. Manufacturers here want to make a fortune off of every product they make...as for the need for government assistance--the people need to simply quit depending on the government to do everything for them. People have been brainwashed into seeing the government as a savior of sorts--and it isn't. People depend on them because that is what they are trained to do.

On gun forums we see a lot of talk about what our founding fathers would have done what they would have wanted, or what great revolutionaries they were. If our economy fails we are done. Do you think they would have bought into the whole “we will all live happily ever after with a global economy” idea. No, they would have had the vision to see where it was headed.

Our economy has for all intents and purposes already failed--I may be wrong, but I simply don't see it recovering--I do however see it getting worse. As for what our founding fathers would have done--had they known what would have become of the country they risked everything for--they would have I think made some dramatic changes to the Constitution in order to prevent the usurpation of powers that is now going on.

The American people control our economy; not the government. Don’t cry that they aren’t doing their part if you aren’t doing yours.

The American people can indeed control the economy--but again they need to grow a spine in order to do so. The fed government also has a role to play in order to help protect this country and its' economy--that is why we should put America first, and quit handing out all of this taxpayer money to foreign countries....worry about the US first--I know, that is a strange concept anymore.

Edited July 1, 2009 by justme

[DaveTN]

Sure they can be involved in a responsible way-require the Chinese to take in as much in $dollar amount of our products and goods as they ship in to us. They won't like it--but what will they do--attack and create total global devastation? Possible, but not likely. What they will do more than likely is simply refuse to take any American made products--in which case the US simply places such a high tariff on imported Chinese junk that it is just unprofitable for companies to bring it in....

Take in what products we make?

Manufacturing can pay the bills-but part of the problem in this country is simply greed. Manufacturers here want to make a fortune off of every product they make...

Sorry, but that’s just isn’t true.

U.S. manufactures are competing with foreign manufacturers while paying much higher salaries and have costs the foreign manufacturers do not have (OSHA, EPA, Health Care, Unemployment insurance, Workman’s Comp, 401K’s, etc, etc etc.

Expecting them to do that AND maintain a lower price is ridiculous.

as for the need for government assistance--the people need to simply quit depending on the government to do everything for them. People have been brainwashed into seeing the government as a savior of sorts--and it isn't. People depend on them because that is what they are trained to do.

Government assistance? Are you talking about the group of voters that set at home watching Oprah while getting a paycheck that we pay? That group was just tapped to elect our president. I’m not sure we can put that Genie back in the bottle. If we give citizenship to all the illegal’s (as is being suggest by some) the Hispanic’s just passed the blacks as the biggest minority. The president after that happens is Latino no matter what he stands for.

We need the people to vote on a President based on what he can do for the country instead of what minority he/she is.

Our economy has for all intents and purposes already failed--I may be wrong, but I simply don't see it recovering--I do however see it getting worse.

You are possibly right. But I have always said that I don’t think it will change until it touches most Americans. That time is here. People are willing to sell out the futures of their children and grandchildren to save a buck on a car, gun or refrigerator.

I like to believe that we will have some Patriots come forward that will explain to the American people that we must protect our own and how to do so. Otherwise, I think you are right; we are doomed to be on the same economic level as other countries.

The American people can indeed control the economy--but again they need to grow a spine in order to do so. The fed government also has a role to play in order to help protect this country and its' economy--that is why we should put America first, and quit handing out all of this taxpayer money to foreign countries....worry about the US first--I know, that is a strange concept anymore.

If we put America first all of this will be moot.

The Federal government doesn’t control what we buy or who we buy it from (Generally speaking). If we want cars made here and that is what we buy; GM and Ford will quit building plants in Canada and Mexico and build them here.

If we buy M&P’s instead of XD’s and Glocks; the money and the jobs stay here. These three guns are arguably the same quality and cost the same.

There aren’t any American manufacturers of TV’s or most electronics right now, but if someone saw that the market was there; they may return.

[leroy]

Guys:______________

Great discussion on the economic issues. You are both doing very well. Just a note about a couple of things. Here they are:

DaveTN: Israel is the hot head over there with their finger on the button. With everyone assuming that they have the backing of the U.S. (I doubt they have the backing of Obama) no one is going to nuke them.

It is my belief that Israel "has their finger on the button" so to speak because the Iranian government has been openly advocating the anniahlation of the state of israel for about 30 years now -- Hitler didn't talk about finishing the jews but for about 10 years. Amajainijad (bad spelling) is simply continuing the rhetoric that Kohemeni started in the early eighties. You also need to remember that the great Ayatolya Kohemeni called the USA the "Great Satan" and Israel the "Little Satan"-- the anti Israel stuff with Iran aint new.

Iran is also working on enriching nuclear fuel -- my guess is that it is for fissile material for a bomb. Given the rhetoric and the work; it is my guess (And i believe the guess of the Israeli's) is that it is reasonable to assume that Iran might mean what they say.

If i was a responsible Israeli leader, I too, would "have my finger on the button" or at least, prepare for the possibility. It is also important to understand that this policy has the backing of the Israeli populace.

The distance from Terhan to Tel Aviv is probably no more than 1000 miles. Missiles travel mighty fast. Think of it as Ohio threatening Tennessee. I would give Israel the benefit of the doubt on this one -- i believe their actions, preparations, etc in regard to Iran are well advised and prudent.

justme: Iran has never to my knowledge in all of modern times ever preemptively attacked "Israel" Show me any war with Israel since they were founded where Iran has openly and preemptively attacked the Israelis with troops, tanks, aircraft and artillery...

We can quibble about this one a little bit, but it's a quibble without any distinction. The fact of the matter is that Iran has, since the days of Kohemeni (early eighties) been fighting a proxy war with Israel and the United States. It started in Lebanon; it's still going on today. The practical result of a "proxy war" is that Iran can deny that they are doing anything, take foreign volunteers to fight the war, and have political and diplomatic cover for their actions. On the other side; Israel and the USA take casulties and diplomatic flack for "fighting an unjust war" against poor underarmed "freedom fighters". The result to Israel and the US is the same--- dead civilians, dead soldiers, and spent treasure.

The United States has largely ignored this war (First Reagan, later Clinton); the Israel'is have not. They have been fighting Hezbolla wherever they have found them. Remember, the last Israeli clash with Hezbolla in Lebanon was brought on by Hebolla rockets menacing Israeli civilians.

The fact is that while the US has largely ignored Hezbolla (or waged a clandestine war against them where we could), the Israel's have not chosen to ignore them; and for good reason. It is my belief that Israel is justified in any campaign against all those who would try to kill civilians and destroy the state of Israel.

The fact is that Iran has been waging war against Israel for about 30 years; using proxy fighters to do their dirty work. Given that truth, I believe that Israel is showing great restraint.

You also need to consider that Israel has never started any of the wars they have engaged in since 1948. They have just finished them. The truth is that the only real ally that the United States has in the middle east is the State of Israel.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[Guest justme]

Take in what products we make?

Yes, the Chinese should have to import our products dollar for dollar to what they export to us...if they export $10 million dollars worth of goods for example--they should have to import the same dollar amount of our goods. Otherwise there should be increased import tariffs on their goods such that it simply makes it completely unprofitable for companies here to import them....

Sorry, but that’s just isn’t true.

U.S. manufactures are competing with foreign manufacturers while paying much higher salaries and have costs the foreign manufacturers do not have (OSHA, EPA, Health Care, Unemployment insurance, Workman’s Comp, 401K’s, etc, etc etc.

Expecting them to do that AND maintain a lower price is ridiculous.

Technically you are correct--you do not see many products imported from Europe--nearly all imported products are coming in from sweat shop labor in China, Pakistan, India, Philippines, and Mexico--most of it is Mexico and China, but I have seen an increase in the number of Pakistani made goods here as well. I do however still believe that American businesses tend to be greedy and want to make as much as they can from each product they sell. The issue of governmental interference in manufacturing could be lessened to some extent if the people of this country would simply grow a spine..

Government assistance? Are you talking about the group of voters that set at home watching Oprah while getting a paycheck that we pay? That group was just tapped to elect our president. I’m not sure we can put that Genie back in the bottle. If we give citizenship to all the illegal’s (as is being suggest by some) the Hispanic’s just passed the blacks as the biggest minority. The president after that happens is Latino no matter what he stands for.

I'm talking exactly about the people who sit by and refuse to work while obtaining a check at the expense of the working people. As for illegal aliens--I think it would be easy to fix that problem--simply bring the US troops home from Iraq and put them on the Mexican border and militarize the US/Mexican border...of course the UN is going to scream, but that is also easily fixed by simply evicting that monstrosity from US soil and simply refusing to contribute even the time of day to it. As for those who are already here--they can feel free to leave, or be rounded up and shipped out and come back legally, just like everyone else has.

We need the people to vote on a President based on what he can do for the country instead of what minority he/she is.

The people don't elect a President--if they did, popular vote would be used when electing the President, instead of the Electoral College....the electoral college does not have to vote the way a state does--the electoral college can in fact vote any way it chooses....

You are possibly right. But I have always said that I don’t think it will change until it touches most Americans. That time is here. People are willing to sell out the futures of their children and grandchildren to save a buck on a car, gun or refrigerator.

It is not the "average American", and by average, I mean it is not the normal, small town people who sell out their futures--they are trying to live from week to week just like everyone else--they have bills to pay, food to buy and cars to keep running--they are just trying to survive--and only survive from paycheck to paycheck. What we have is a system that is broken--the "free market" experiment has proved, in its current condition at least to be as big of a failure as Marxist idealism....because you have the shop owners who want to pay just as little as they can get by with, colleges and universities who charge enormous sums for tuition and books making it nearly impossible for anyone who actually tries to make their own way instead of trying to subside on government assistance to actually go to school and improve their lot in society. You also have companies which are more than willing to hire illegals in an effort to keep their single most controllable expense down--payroll. The issue about Americans selling out their futures--goes far far deeper than just buying a foreign made product--it is the entire broken system.

I like to believe that we will have some Patriots come forward that will explain to the American people that we must protect our own and how to do so. Otherwise, I think you are right; we are doomed to be on the same economic level as other countries.

Patriotism goes deeper than just buying something with a label that says Made in America--it means holding the government--local, state and federal responsible for their actions, it means making education affordable and easier to obtain for those who really want it, regardless of their age--so that those who actually work for a living don't have to choose between paying their bills or paying tuition. It means being willing to stand up for what is right--not what is easy. It also means holding employers--regardless of how large or how small directly responsible for the hiring of illegal aliens, it means making sure the government does not give away our national wealth to foreign governments in terms of huge aide packages, and for making a statement to the government that they work for us, not the other way around...and it is so much more than this...

If we put America first all of this will be moot.

The Federal government doesn’t control what we buy or who we buy it from (Generally speaking). If we want cars made here and that is what we buy; GM and Ford will quit building plants in Canada and Mexico and build them here.

If we buy M&P’s instead of XD’s and Glocks; the money and the jobs stay here. These three guns are arguably the same quality and cost the same.

There aren’t any American manufacturers of TV’s or most electronics right now, but if someone saw that the market was there; they may return.

Actually this is not true--the M&P has an MSRP that is higher than the XD. The M&P .45 is around $780, whereas the XD .45 is around $600, and the Glocks run about the same as the XD--so the M&P is quite a bit higher than the Springfield XD... S&W could manufacture and sell the M&P at a comparative cost to the XD or Glock--but they don't. I mean they can sell their other Polymer pistols at about $460 or so...why not the M&P?

Edited July 1, 2009 by justme

[Metalhead]

Damn, you guys are the kings of walls of text.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Its the radiation leakage in the Secret City.

[DaveTN]

Yes, the Chinese should have to import our products dollar for dollar to what they export to us...if they export $10 million dollars worth of goods for example--they should have to import the same dollar amount of our goods. Otherwise there should be increased import tariffs on their goods such that it simply makes it completely unprofitable for companies here to import them....

Just don’t buy Chinese made stuff and don’t shop at stores like Wal-Mart that peddle it.

The Chinese laugh at copyrights and patents, they copy name brand items and ship them here to sell. Those items should be banned and the people that accept shipment of them arrested; but it doesn’t happen.

The issue of governmental interference in manufacturing could be lessened to some extent if the people of this country would simply grow a spine..

?

The people don't elect a President--if they did, popular vote would be used when electing the President, instead of the Electoral College....the electoral college does not have to vote the way a state does--the electoral college can in fact vote any way it chooses....

I’m not going to go research that, but it doesn’t sound credible. Maybe you would like to offer an example.

The issue about Americans selling out their futures--goes far far deeper than just buying a foreign made product--it is the entire broken system.

No it isn’t; it isn’t rocket science and you don’t need a degree in economics to understand it. When your college educated grandkids can barely be able to afford to buy a house they won’t listen to a bunch of rhetoric about how the system is broken…. They will look you in the eye and ask how you could have been so stupid.

Patriotism goes deeper than just buying something with a label that says Made in America--it means holding the government--local, state and federal responsible for their actions, it means making education affordable and easier to obtain for those who really want it, regardless of their age--so that those who actually work for a living don't have to choose between paying their bills or paying tuition. It means being willing to stand up for what is right--not what is easy. It also means holding employers--regardless of how large or how small directly responsible for the hiring of illegal aliens, it means making sure the government does not give away our national wealth to foreign governments in terms of huge aide packages, and for making a statement to the government that they work for us, not the other way around...and it is so much more than this...

Everyone has their own idea about what a Patriot is…. As long as they are included in that description.

It also depends on what the threat is at the time. An economic crisis can destroy a country just the same as a war can. In an economic crisis a person working to help the economy is as important as a solder on the battlefield. Keeping high paying manufacturing jobs with benefits in the country is key right now.

Actually this is not true--the M&P has an MSRP that is higher than the XD. The M&P .45 is around $780, whereas the XD .45 is around $600, and the Glocks run about the same as the XD--so the M&P is quite a bit higher than the Springfield XD... S&W could manufacture and sell the M&P at a comparative cost to the XD or Glock--but they don't.

That’s preposterous. I don’t know where you are buying your guns, but it appears you have spent way too much time discussing political issues and not enough time in the other forums.

Don’t let the fact that you see them used in the for sale section with prices higher than new fool you.

I have owned four M&P’s. I recently bought two from Hero Gear (full size and compact). I don’t remember what the exact prices were but both were under $500. ($489 maybe?)

No one pays MSRP unless a firearm just came out on the market. MSRP is just so your dealer can give you a warm fuzzy felling when you buy.

“Street Price†is advertised everywhere and there is very little difference in price between an M&P, Glock, and XD.

I mean they can sell their other Polymer pistols at about $460 or so...why not the M&P?

What other polymer pistols… the Sigma?

[Guest justme]

Just don’t buy Chinese made stuff and don’t shop at stores like Wal-Mart that peddle it. The Chinese laugh at copyrights and patents, they copy name brand items and ship them here to sell. Those items should be banned and the people that accept shipment of them arrested; but it doesn’t happen.

And this is exactly why it should be extremely difficult for the Chinese to peddle their junk in this country unless they take just as much in American made products. They don't like it--tough, they can peddle their junk to the Europeans or the Russians.

?

I should have clarified--I think the people should require minimal governmental interference in business and manufacturing. I don't want companies dumping pollutants into rivers and lakes, or to just dump bi-products...so a certain amount of governmental oversight by the EPA, and OSHA should occur--but I think the role of the government in business should be as minimal as possible--and the people should demand it.

I’m not going to go research that, but it doesn’t sound credible. Maybe you would like to offer an example.

2000 Presidental election where Al Gore won the popular vote with 50,999,897 votes while George Bush Jr. won 50,456,002 votes...but Bush won the election due to the electoral votes.

The election of President should be by popular vote--but this can not happen without a Constitutional Amendment from Congress.

The following quote is from the National Archives :

Must electors vote for the candidate who won their State's popular vote? There is no Constitutional provision or Federal law that requires electors to vote according to the results of the popular vote in their States. Some States, however, require electors to cast their votes according to the popular vote. These pledges fall into two categories—electors bound by State law and those bound by pledges to political parties.

Which States bind electors to popular vote results? Refer to Electors Bound by State Law and Pledges to find out.

The Supreme Court has held that the Constitution does not require that electors be completely free to act as they choose and therefore, political parties may extract pledges from electors to vote for the parties' nominees. Some State laws provide that so-called "faithless electors" may be subject to fines or may be disqualified for casting an invalid vote and be replaced by a substitute elector. The Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on the question of whether pledges and penalties for failure to vote as pledged may be enforced under the Constitution. No elector has ever been prosecuted for failing to vote as pledged.

Today, it is rare for electors to disregard the popular vote by casting their electoral vote for someone other than their party's candidate. Electors generally hold a leadership position in their party or were chosen to recognize years of loyal service to the party. Throughout our history as a nation, more than 99 percent of electors have voted as pledged.

Only states can require their electors to cast votes according to popular vote, and only 26 states plus the District of Columbia have such laws--24 states have no such laws--and there is no US Constitutional provision requiring the electoral college to vote according to popular vote...

No it isn’t; it isn’t rocket science and you don’t need a degree in economics to understand it. When your college educated grandkids can barely be able to afford to buy a house they won’t listen to a bunch of rhetoric about how the system is broken…. They will look you in the eye and ask how you could have been so stupid.

no it isn't rocket science, but yes it all leads back to the entire broken system--you have politicians who do not try to protect America or American products, you have a President and a Congress who is determined to hand over this country on a silver platter to the UN and the foreign interests--Mexico is number 1 on the list right now...You have companies itching to move overseas to control payroll, or simply outsource their labor and manufacturing to India, Pakistan and Mexico, and you have Americans who are forced to live on low wages while prices are increasing, and they are simply forced to work and live from payday to payday, while you have an education system that is intent on educating our enemies free of charge while charging exorbitant amounts in tuition to American students, and a people that has become so dependent on the governmet to feed, house and support and protect them that they have essentially been taken into bondage in their own country--and who have forgotten for the most part what it really means to be free.... The entire "system" is broken....

on this I guess we will agree to disagree.

It also depends on what the threat is at the time. An economic crisis can destroy a country just the same as a war can. In an economic crisis a person working to help the economy is as important as a solder on the battlefield. Keeping high paying manufacturing jobs with benefits in the country is key right now.

Yes, an economic crisis can destroy a country as quickly as a war can. The problem is--you have companies who are simply itching to move overseas, or outsource their labor overseas in order to control their payroll...and then of course they simply continue to ship their products back into the country with no penalties whatsoever....any company that moves overseas, or outsources their manufacturing to foreign companies should not be allowed to ship their products back into this country and carry on business as usual.

That’s preposterous. I don’t know where you are buying your guns, but it appears you have spent way too much time discussing political issues and not enough time in the other forums.

Don’t let the fact that you see them used in the for sale section with prices higher than new fool you.

actually it isn't preposterous--some places are simply greedy--I found one place that under sells any other store in my area...so yes, some will try to sell them at MSRP. Some do, some don't.

I have owned four M&P’s. I recently bought two from Hero Gear (full size and compact). I don’t remember what the exact prices were but both were under $500. ($489 maybe?)

No one pays MSRP unless a firearm just came out on the market. MSRP is just so your dealer can give you a warm fuzzy felling when you buy.

“Street Price” is advertised everywhere and there is very little difference in price between an M&P, Glock, and XD.

I am aware of the difference between street price and MSRP--but I also know some stores who do try to charge MSRP while one place actually charges less than any other stores in the area where I live...So I am aware that some places do try and charge MSRP while some others don't.

What other polymer pistols… the Sigma?

Yes, the Sigma series. On the S&W website it lists the M&Ps ranging between $720 for the compacts and up to $988 for the M&P with the crimson trace grips....If I'm going to pay $1000 for a handgun I will either buy one from Para Ordnance or the FN 5.7x28--been wanting one of the Para Ordnance models but I simply refuse to pay nearly $1000 for a handgun.

Edited July 2, 2009 by justme

[leroy]

Yes, an economic crisis can destroy a country as quickly as a war can. The problem is--you have companies who are simply itching to move overseas, or outsource their labor overseas in order to control their payroll...and then of course they simply continue to ship their products back into the country with no penalties whatsoever....any company that moves overseas, or outsources their manufacturing to foreign companies should not be allowed to ship their products back into this country and carry on business as usual.

Cant let this one pass since it is a great economic, protectionist, union-management discussion. Make no mistake; the main reason that large companies are moving overseas is due to idiotic regulation here in the US, government intrusion into the day to day business of capital markets, fear of outright government takeovers of companies, and the fear of union resurgence. The fact of the matter is that those who believe in all these regulations and governmental interference are busily destroying the ability of companies to operate in the USA; and along with it, are killing the proverbial goose that laid the golden egg in america.

The whole idea of capitalism, which by the way is the foundation of the idea of private property, is the idea that folks provide a product or service at a price that allows them to sell a product or service at a profit; it's that simple. For the last 80 or so years (since about 1930) the people of the good ole USA have been fed a steady diet of socialist baloney that says that all capitalists (read that as business owners, stock holders in corporations, and corporate executives) are bad, all profits are obscene, the working man is downtrodden by the big corporations, that no one should have more than anyone else, and that everybody is entitled to everything that everyone else has; regardless of whether they work for it or not.

This idiotic notion has been promoted by the socialist Demorats, academia, the unions, and other bolchelvic lay abouts; along with the childish who have managed to elect a socialist, redistributionist president and congress.

America is well on it's way to being being economically destroyed and reduced to third world status by these socialist idiots who think they are "the smartest guys in the room" and know how to do everything. Until the notion that socialism and redistrubutionism should replace capitalism in this country is defeated, there is little hope to revitalize the manufacturing and building sector of our nation. That is exactly why the "big corporations" are leaving the USA to operate overseas where they will be left alone and allowed to. The truth is that while the rest of the world, including the former Soviet Union and Red China is turning to capitalist philosophy; the foolish in this country are trying to continue and expand the socialist policies that so infatuated Woodrow Wilson and FDR. People had best wake up and understand that the real enemy this country faces is not from without; but from within. I'm old enough to remember Nikita Kruschev's famous "We will bury you speech". He predicted the destruction of the capitalist system in the USA. If hell has a window into the here and now, ole Nikita has to be pressing his hog nose against it; looking up at Oboma, the congress, and the foolish people of american and laughting his head off.

Folks, if you don't like what's going on now, you better get out and get to work supporting some candidates at the local, state, and national level who acually believe in capitalism, or you may well be subjected to the next iteration of socialism; its called totaliniarism. Check the history book (that the revisionists havent messed with yet); you will soon find out that no socialist state has ever not been dominated by totalitarianist dictators.

Thats how i see the whole thing; been watching for about 50 years now.

Food for thought,

LEROY

[Guest 1817ak47]

we need to qiute worrying so much about other countries. when i heard about htis korean stuff a couple of weeks ago I load my sks and my stripper clip pouch in the unlikely event something happens here

[Guest 1817ak47]

The problem is--you have companies who are simply itching to move overseas, or outsource their labor overseas in order to control their payroll...and then of course they simply continue to ship their products back into the country with no penalties whatsoever....any company that moves overseas, or outsources their manufacturing to foreign companies should not be allowed to ship their products back into this country and carry on business as usual.

very much agreed, now some of this union stuff I hear about is ridiculous, we have to much imports coming in and too little out,

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT, not due to a high influx or graduates which was bs, (and obama doesn't have all the ansers either) all this chinese made **** need to stop coming here. I am very consious on looking at made in what coutries labels on stuff I buy, yes it cost a little more for american stuff, but we are supporting a better life for ourselves, with clean air and water to breathe unlike some of hte countries with cheap cost labor etc. I have worked extensively around cars and america needs to start making competitve relaible cars and also offer fuel efficeint cars that actually compete with the competition, this should ahve happened in 03-04 when gas was starting to cost 2+ gallon, sin hte late 90's the trend was gas was alittle higher each year than it was the previous year. hmmm some of us might not want high fuel consumption vehicles

just my $.01 and some things for people to ponder on

[leroy]

we need to qiute worrying so much about other countries. when i heard about htis korean stuff a couple of weeks ago I load my sks and my stripper clip pouch in the unlikely event something happens here

AMEN!!! I like this post!! What a truth!! Everything does not have to be a crisis. Just be ready if it turns into one.

Keep up the good work!!

Kind regards,

LEROY

[Guest Hyaloid]

I am all for preparedness, but please let's be cautious in how we discuss it, and keep it in the relevant forum please. Image is important, and let's be sure we project the correct one.

Good job keeping the thread civil, let's keep up the polite discourse!