Kalashnikov Rifle Gunfighting - Chattanooga

[towerclimber37]

I am not sure how much of that will change, but a more refined skillset of using it as an impact weapon is definitely something I'm looking forward to.

The ak's are pretty good as impact weapons, provided they're using the old wood stocks. even the Poly stocks that you run across make good clubs.

Using a battle rifle as an impact weapon depends a LOT on technique. if you get the moves down, you can take someones head apart pretty dang quickly.

couple that with a bayonet and you have the ability to seriously damage anything within a 4 foot sphere of your position.

Aks' make great clubs. now, if I want to shoot someone, I'll get a different platform...thats just me though.

[Marswolf]

I'll go for the AK as a club.

But I agree Tower, there are better weapons systems IMHO.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I agree. For certain applications there are better systems.I like my M4. I like my Colt Commando. I like my M1A Scout rifle. I also like my AK. They all do different stuff well.

But for a robust system with rugged reliability -that is NOT intensely maintenance dependant-with a cartridge that will shoot through stuff and still do something after it gets through stuff, and in a somewhat lightweight package with a healthy mag capacity, that is affordable and affordable to practice with enough to "own" anything you can see out to 150-200 yards (and especially at 50 and less where things REALLY happen in civilian world) then the AK is pretty hard to beat. But that is just IMHO:D.

[molonlabetn]

I recognize the inherent shortcomings of the Kalishikov platform... but in reality, no AR15 carbine that I could buy would be any more effective inside 100yd than my AK74.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

And that, combined with the robust design and lack of need for intensive maintenance is why I like them.

In other terms. I agree that the 1911, PROPERLY tuned, and set up is probably the finest combat pistol out there. The problem is that they require more maintenance and greater "start up expense" to get them right or to build them right from the ground up. The design just does not lend itself to modern production methods. It NEEDS to be hand fitted.But properly set up it is finer than anything else out there...IMHO.

On the other hand the glock requires virtually no maintenance, works straight out of the box and will shoot as well as as the shooter in REALISTIC interpersonal conflict distance where pistols are likely to be used as a primary weapon. I'll take robust and "good enough" over "the best" albeit finicky every time. But YMMV.

[Marswolf]

And that, combined with the robust design and lack of need for intensive maintenance

Not sure about them being a "robust" design. Awful lot of cheap stamped metal in the things, even the ones with the milled receivers. But yes, they are a sloppy fit weapon and so you can get away with being sloppy on maintenance.

Don't get me wrong, I have an AK and have been shot by one. I have a lot of respect for them. But I'll take a precision weapon over one that just doesn't require as much maintenance any day. It has to be reliable, but I'm willing to do my part to insure that it is reliable.

I'll take an AK for closer range "brush shots" but something more accurate and that better fits me ergonomically is my preference for everything else.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The robustness I refer to is the fact that you CAN use it as a club and not worry about breaking it. You CAN drop it on concrete and not worry about it going Tango Uniform. You CAN do bayonet drills without breaking it....I know someone who broke 2 M16A4s doing bayonet drills.

I'm all for precision....when it is needed. In civillian SD it just really is not often that necessary to be able to shoot 1" 100 yard groups. And we ALL know this.

But for ME,my situation,and my skill, I'm more worried about it going bang than I am about me being able to direct the rounds to the target. Aks are PLENTY accurate enough for me. The less I have to worry with "what if it doesn't work" the more I can concentrate on what I'm doing.

I can have anything I want (or can afford). I'm not having to deal with something someone else issued to me. In a " social" gun I don't want something that I have to EVER worry about whether it will go bang when I want it to. But I'm just practical like that....

And guys, there is no RIGHTor WRONG here. If guys like M16s... fine. I like 'em too. If guys like M14s...fine. I do too. If you like FALs cool. I too like them. If you like MP5....great. I like 'em too. But honestly my UZI will do 95% of what an MP5 will do and do it when it is much dirtier AND...... the UZI is much easier to clean to boot! And I'd much rather clean an AK than an M16....

The weapon is not nearly as important as the mindset and skill of the operator. Hell, that is the same with anything-golf, tennis, auto racing. So a guy who has internalized his gun handling and marksmanship so that that stuff runs on a subconscous level so he can concentrate on winning the fight not running his gear is much better armed with a lever gun(or a sharp stick!) than most folks are with an HK416. And we all SHOULD know that. I know you do Mars.

[Marswolf]

Me? I'm just an old guy with an unusual skill set.

Ever notice how hot AK fore grips get after a couple of hundred rounds?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Yep. They do.

But honestly that doesn't apply here. You might as well be comparing apples and diesel fuel.

In MY situation-civillian USA, if I fire SEVERAL HUNDRED ROUNDS it will be on CNN and I will be in the encyclopedia .Besides, I don't carry that much ammo with me........ So that hot handguard issue is just not really a concern to me.

Context. Within the REALISTIC operational context of my "real world" that is a non issue. Besides I'll take a hot handguard as a trade off for the ability to shoot through cover more efficiently.

You, in all liklelihood look at this through YOUR "real world" operational context. As you should. What works for cops in Franklin Tn (just pulling that out of the air) is NOT AT ALL relevant to what works clearing cave complexes in eastern Afghanistan or hunting rebels in the jungles of the Phillipines or civilian self defense or natural disaster/shtf scenarios. What Delta guys do room entry with is as relevant to my life as what aliens use for toilet paper. Not relevant at all.

[Marswolf]

In your situation, if you shoot someone with an AK in self defense, you will be on CNN.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Knowing what I know I'd say that's an overly broad generalization not at all relevant to my specific situation, locale, or the local DA. (but then again that may have been a joke and I just didn't pick up on it-the old lack of voice inflection in internet forums thing.......)

That is the wonderful thing about the legal climate here. It really doesn't matter WHAT you shoot them with as long as they NEEDED to be shot. If lethal force is required (justifiable) the delivery vehicle is pretty much irrelevant. This isn't Illinois, Cali or Mass. It's still a "free" part of the world!

[molonlabetn]

...Ever notice how hot AK fore grips get after a couple of hundred rounds?

That's why mine now has a modular forend and VFG... I don't like catching forestocks on fire or melting my skin to them.

[Guest DonRickles]

I have shot a russian Vepr in 5.56 that was just as accurate as your basic AR. IMHO most people(present company included) do not have the skills to take advantage of the highly tuned rifle any more than the crude one. Of course this does not include you Special Forces Black Ops Commando types:rolleyes: but the average joe. I would have to agree the simplicity and ruggedness of the AK/Glock is hard to beat(but hardly the end all be all) for an efficient fighting combo. Most people however are not thinking of them as just fighting tools. Hey guns are cool and that is why they multiply by themselves in the gunsafe. Richard Heinie 1911 ooooohhh..........H&K 416....aaaaaaaah now back to reality. If you can afford to spend lots of money on your guns that is great. Every couple of months I will tell you how great your newest toy looks and I will expect the same coutesy from you. For many owning/having guns is a hobby and it should be fun. However, I have come to a realization recently that a strong "skill set" as Mars put it would be a good thing to have. So I will be devoting more of my time, money and energy to ammunition and training with my simple, affordable and efficient weapons of choice. However I will welcome the opportunity to shoot and train with as many different platforms as possible. I read somewhere recently that a warrior should know more than one weapon(system). While I am not about to proclaim myself a warrior(I am just another guy) this does make pretty good sense to me.

[Marswolf]

but then again that may have been a joke and I just didn't pick up on it-the old lack of voice inflection in internet forums thing.......)

Yeah, it was a joke. :D

This is beginning to sound like a Glock topic.

[Marswolf]

However, I have come to a realization recently that a strong "skill set" as Mars put it would be a good thing to have. So I will be devoting more of my time, money and energy to ammunition and training with my simple, affordable and efficient weapons of choice.

I think you are very wise - grasshopper.

While I have access to, and generally use, the best tools for the job at hand, I've always prided myself on learning to use and compensate for more affordable weapons. That means not just firearms, but knives and other survival tools.

I'm certainly not Mr. Special Ops, especially as I've gotten older. But I do know how to do a few things. And all along I have worked with some people who are very good at that Ops thing. That's why I have so little regard for the fat-ass doughnut stuffing wannabes who take a training class and think they are Rambo.

[The Rabbi]

I have shot a russian Vepr in 5.56 that was just as accurate as your basic AR. IMHO most people(present company included) do not have the skills to take advantage of the highly tuned rifle any more than the crude one. Of course this does not include you Special Forces Black Ops Commando types:rolleyes: but the average joe. I would have to agree the simplicity and ruggedness of the AK/Glock is hard to beat(but hardly the end all be all) for an efficient fighting combo. Most people however are not thinking of them as just fighting tools. Hey guns are cool and that is why they multiply by themselves in the gunsafe. Richard Heinie 1911 ooooohhh..........H&K 416....aaaaaaaah now back to reality. If you can afford to spend lots of money on your guns that is great. Every couple of months I will tell you how great your newest toy looks and I will expect the same coutesy from you. For many owning/having guns is a hobby and it should be fun. However, I have come to a realization recently that a strong "skill set" as Mars put it would be a good thing to have. So I will be devoting more of my time, money and energy to ammunition and training with my simple, affordable and efficient weapons of choice. However I will welcome the opportunity to shoot and train with as many different platforms as possible. I read somewhere recently that a warrior should know more than one weapon(system). While I am not about to proclaim myself a warrior(I am just another guy) this does make pretty good sense to me.

It'll never help you. Because I am the only one on this forum that I know of, professional enough to handle the VEPR......

[towerclimber37]

why do I get the feeling that Rabbi would sound better saying that in a Darth Vader voice?

[Guest DonRickles]

Rabbi have you shot yourself in the leg with one before?

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi have you shot yourself in the leg with one before?

No. But I've shot myself in the foot with my mouth often enough...

[TGO David]

I have so little regard for the fat-ass doughnut stuffing wannabes who think they are Rambo.

Just because I still need to drop 20lbs and carried at Dunkin Donuts this past weekend, you don't have to get all personal on me.

And I never liked Rambo much.

[Marswolf]

Rambo always reminded me of Rocky Balboa on steroids.

[Guest Hornet Handler]

Rambo always reminded me of Rocky Balboa on steroids.

Really, Rocky Balboa reminds me of Rambo on steriods.