notifying businesses back when HCP became legal?

[Mike.357]

I have read a couple of threads where there is a difference opinion about going and asking restaurants/bars if they are going to post about banning guns.

I am curious. When HCP's first were legalized in TN did people go around asking businesses in general if they were going to post signs banning guns? And if not, then why would we go and ask restaurants/bars if they were planning to post up?

I was not here then so I wonder.

I am not sure I have ever seen a legal posting anywhere.

[Guest KevinM]

Don't ask...don't tell.

[Guest 70below]

I wasn't here then either. I can see pluses and minuses to both though. There are a lot of issues where if we don't let it be known that there are a lot of sensible gun owners out there, then some business owners will assume what they hear in the media to be true, and will feel and urgency to post. On the other hand, I hate to bring an issue to their attention if its not something they had thought much about.

[Guest mustangdave]

All I'll say right now is that in the past month or so + I've been taking mental note of places my wife and I frequent to see if they're posted and if so are they in compliance.

[Mike.357]

I've been taking mental note of places

While I am still very new to handgun carry, (only have had the permit 2 years) I look all the time to see if a place is posted. I really do not think I have ever seen a place posted, aside from a package store or two that had an out of date law still posted.

I always look hard for signage.

I was just curious if people went out of their way (when HCP was initiated ) to ask owners and employees if their business was going to post.

Frankly the entire business of asking about postings reminds me of Voldemort.

[TGO David]

I moved to TN after the fact. My home state (Kentucky) doesn't allow a business to restrict carry or any other nonsense like that, so it was an alien concept to me that a business could preempt the law.

[Fallguy]

When the state first starting issue HCP's a business didn't have to "post" they could simply "announce" that carry was prohibited in their business.

AFAIK what "announce" meant was never legally defined.

However after that was removed, I don't recall a rash of people asking business owner's, but I was not part of any statewide group where I could have read what others were doing.

A point to make though, the removal of the "announce" from 39-17-1359 or the fact that 39-17-1359 even existed when HCPs started being issued was not in the news daily for months, like restaurant carry has been.

[Mike.357]

When the state first starting issue <ACRONYM title="Handgun Carry Permit">HCP</ACRONYM>'s a business didn't have to "post" they could simply "announce" that carry was prohibited in their business.

It really intrigues me. There had to be talk that blood would run in the street, shootouts at Walmart over shoppping carts etc... The same basic crappola they are trying to stir up over this bar carry thing.

that "announce" thing is interesting too. I wonder how a business announced it?

[Fallguy]

It really intrigues me. There had to be talk that blood would run in the street, shootouts at Walmart over shoppping carts etc... The same basic crappola they are trying to stir up over this bar carry thing.

that "announce" thing is interesting too. I wonder how a business announced it?

Oh yes, there was that talk, best I remember. But to be honest in my neck of the woods I didn't hear that much. Also don't remember hearing anything about 39-17-1359 till I took my class a few months later.

The "announce" thing is one reason I try to keep up with the laws so closely now.

Some thought that Wal-Mart simply making an announcement on the speakers at 1:00am would cover it. Others thought that it would have to be a direct communication. It is one reason I didn't carry more when I first got my HCP, because how could you ever know if a placed had "announced" that carry was prohibited there.

But anyway....back to your question.....

[Mike.357]

I am kind of disappointed there is no one who has had a permit since way back in the day here who can share what the political climate was like back then.

oh well

PS thanks Fallguy, you latest post was inciteful.

[Billco]

I believe HCP went into effect in TN in 1996. I don't remember the great wave of concern then. There were some arguments against it, but not to the degree we have today and the majority of the media seemed to concentrate on just reporting the news and editorializing...there wasn't the blatant attempt to sway opions as there is now. The HCP law was passed with little fanfare, some businesses posted the "no gun" circle, and that was about it.

[Mike.357]

thanks for replying Bill.

some businesses posted the "no gun" circle, and that was about it.

so according to what Fallguy had said the "no gun" circle would have been sufficient.

I wonder what made the media decide they need to influence news rather than just report it.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[K191145]

I got my permit around 98, I remember all the hype but I never personally asked any business if they allowed HC or not and saw only a few signs. That's when I decided just to avoid those businesses.

[Farman]

I got my CCW in FL about 1993 and being we had to conceal, I always went by 'Don't ask Don't Tell. And a little slightly off topic I just found this........

David Kopel, Research Director at the Independence Institute comments on Florida's concealed carry experience:

"What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit." (

"More Permits Mean Less Crime..."

Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5)

[Guest m&pc9]

I lived in FL. from 1986 to 1993. And at some point in that time they passed a law that had a loophole that would allow open carry with out a permit. I think it took about 2-3 months to close the loophole. And the media where I lived was about the same as around here. All gloom and doom, blood running in the streets. I remember seeing one guy at sears that was open carrying.

[Guest clownsdd]

I got mine when they first issued them. Don't remember the exact year, but I did not see as much heck raising about it in the media.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

IT WAS... BUT THAT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME...

[Guest crotalus01]

Glockmeister could probably tell you about the bad old days when HCPs were first issued in TN, but a lot of people (myself included) didn't get a permit when they first came available because the restrictions made it almost impossible to carry so why bother? Back then you couldn't carry anywhere that sold alcohol (not for consumption on site, I mean Krogers, convenience stores etc), you could only carry the gun you qualified with, etc.

Nowadays there is NO reason I can think of to not get a permit, outside being a Brady Bunch member or an Obamaite.

[Guest canynracer]

For me...If the door is posted in any way shape or form, I will not spend money there...legal posting or not.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

For me...If the door is posted in any way shape or form, I will not spend money there...legal posting or not.

++++1

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Glockmeister could probably tell you about the bad old days when HCPs were first issued in TN, but a lot of people (myself included) didn't get a permit when they first came available because the restrictions made it almost impossible to carry so why bother? Back then you couldn't carry anywhere that sold alcohol (not for consumption on site, I mean Krogers, convenience stores etc), you could only carry the gun you qualified with, etc.

Nowadays there is NO reason I can think of to not get a permit, outside being a Brady Bunch member or an Obamaite.

WOW... LOL... I MEAN... LOL... Sheriffs, bonds, "shall issue" shall not issue"... $$$$$$.... where do I start?

The one consistent thing from the very beginning was the required 8 hours of training. So as an instructors we were pretty much left alone to do our jobs, at least until the sheriffs got wise to the fact they wernt going to make money off the classes or the bonds. Then quite a few of them turned into 1st class azzes.

Back in 94 when it all started it was a great thing but everything was pretty foobar, again... wow ... where to start. 1st everyone had to be bonded. This cost slone was $150-200 and it wasnt even legal. There were type of hand gun restrictions.

Then heres where the Sheriffs got involved ... 1st the total cost of the permit was anywhere from $85 to $750 depending on where you lived. The state gave the sheriffs in each county jurisdiction to issue to the permits. A few of the sheriffs were good to go and issued permits with a simple $5 fee for the background check. Some simply refused to issue any, some tried to price it too far out of reach of the citizens. Some people paid their money and never got a permit, some waited a year... some got it the same day. There was no uniformity or consitancy... in short the legislators created a monster. Most all of the sheriffs had some kind of their own "little rule" you had to go by if you wanted one. In short you had to kiss azz... and if they didnt like you then you were SOl. We taught all over the state back then, and had to fight it out with several sheriffs for that right. In short they had way too much power.

Posting were pretty common back then too. The media made it sound like it was going to be like the old west... and it simply wasnt. Signs popped up... and we boycotted those businesses. Signs came down. And back then any posting was considered posted. It was a game we played for a few years.

Then with most of the credit going to John Harris we got several bills, in as many sessions, pushed through the legislature that made many changes. One of those was the stipulation that signage had to meet certain criteria, then we removed the "carry where alcohol is sold" restriction",... and honestly it goes on and on. We owe John a great deal for 15 years+ of hard work.

Bonds, sheriffs, and high prices were out the window. The Dept of Safety took over and to make a long story short it has morphed into what we have today.

So to answer your questions back in 1994 signs were already popping up before the 1st permit was issued saying "No Guns". But we were proactive to pretty much eliminate them.

[creeky]

I think I got my in '97. Can't remember exactly, I'd have to look through some stuff.

I do remember that it was just after the Bond requirement was lifted. But we still had to only carry what we qualified with. (If you wanted to be able to carry a different gun sometimes, the class I took would let you come back and qualify with the other gun for free.)

I don't remember a rash of signs going up but do remember seeing one every now and then. It was always something you concealed, and you didn't really talk about much.

It may be because before we got the HCP's lots of people were carrying already illegally. (At least in west nashville.) My Dad had quite a few that had guns on them that came into his barber shop. Took me a while before I figured out what was going on. (He used to hold them for some of them while he cut their hair in his backbar.)

Bringing the issue to store owners is self defeating in my view. I feel it would server the HCP community better to be polite, frequent the restaurants, then after being there with no problems... then discuss the issue should they bring it up. (IMHO)