The Road to Guantanamo

[DaveTN]

What if some of these people were at GITMO? They are Called "Terrorist" By our Government.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/general-off-topic/22855-pentagon-exam-calls-protests-low-level-terrorism.html

Are there some American protesters incarcerated at GITMO?

[Guest jth_3s]

Are there some American protesters incarcerated at GITMO?

I dont know I dont believe they release all of the Info on that. My point is that there could be due to the fact that they are now terrorists.

[Guest jth_3s]

And even if no protestor ever goes to GITMO under the PATRIOT ACT you loose virtually all of your rights when you are deemed a Terrorist. We''l just have to see how much further we slide maybe I'm wrong.

[Guest bkelm18]

And what did the 3,000+ people in those towers do to deserve what they got?

Let me put it plainly for you, (and as nicely as I can muster): If you are dumb enough to park your family next to a military target, it is your fault whether you or your family dies in the strike.

+1.

Kevin, jth, the things you say blow my mind. I can't even think of a coherent or even remotely acceptable response as per the COC here, I'll just say that I am glad as hell that there are people in this country who balk at views like yours and stand up for whats right and refuse to play pattycake with those who want to kill us and will not stop until we are dead. I'm sure you'll post some smug little PETA-esque response, but you'll be glad to know that I won't read it. I like my computer in one piece.

[DaveTN]

I dont know I dont believe they release all of the Info on that. My point is that there could be due to the fact that they are now terrorists.

And even if no protestor ever goes to GITMO under the PATRIOT ACT you loose virtually all of your rights when you are deemed a Terrorist. We''l just have to see how much further we slide maybe I'm wrong.

I guess I just don’t care. We have prisoners here in our prisons that are innocent. They have committed no crime. But because they can’t afford good legal counsel they will spend years in prison or be executed.

So…. I’m supposed to be concerned about some people that hate me and want to kill me? Sorry, I just can’t get excited about it; and I see no Constitutional issues.

[Mark@Sea]

No, not "in my eyes". Most people would agree your world view is pretty twisted. Torturing people and holding them in cages without charge makes us akin to our enemies.

Fascism is alive and well in the US of A....

Actually, kidnapping innocents off the streets and beheading them for propaganda videos would be more in line with 'akin to our enemies'.

Frankly, as a veteran, I have reached redline with the people who are so willing and eager to believe that our military is a) incompetent has no honor and c) has the same or lower level of morality than those we are currently facing in a shooting war. Believe me or not, the fact is that the people I served with over the last nearly thirty years have, as a rule, a strong sense of right and wrong, a strong sense of personal honor and how it demands we performed our duties, and better intelligence than the CNN/ABC/NBC ex-spurts. The accusations I've been reading and hearing over the last few years (especially the 'truthers') is an insult to my service, my honor, and my intelligence.

If you happen to have documented evidence of a massacre of innocents. or of imprisoning innocents to meet some sort of quota, or something of that nature, bring it on. I'd help you attack 'the system' to get these injustices righted.

Otherwise, put up, shut up, or arrange a time and place where we can settle this as gentlemen.

/rant off.

[Punisher84]

Actually, kidnapping innocents off the streets and beheading them for propaganda videos would be more in line with 'akin to our enemies'.

Frankly, as a veteran, I have reached redline with the people who are so willing and eager to believe that our military is a) incompetent has no honor and c) has the same or lower level of morality than those we are currently facing in a shooting war. Believe me or not, the fact is that the people I served with over the last nearly thirty years have, as a rule, a strong sense of right and wrong, a strong sense of personal honor and how it demands we performed our duties, and better intelligence than the CNN/ABC/NBC ex-spurts. The accusations I've been reading and hearing over the last few years (especially the 'truthers') is an insult to my service, my honor, and my intelligence.

If you happen to have documented evidence of a massacre of innocents. or of imprisoning innocents to meet some sort of quota, or something of that nature, bring it on. I'd help you attack 'the system' to get these injustices righted.

Otherwise, put up, shut up, or arrange a time and place where we can settle this as gentlemen.

/rant off.

Damn right!

[Guest jth_3s]

I guess I just don’t care. We have prisoners here in our prisons that are innocent. They have committed no crime. But because they can’t afford good legal counsel they will spend years in prison or be executed.

So…. I’m supposed to be concerned about some people that hate me and want to kill me? Sorry, I just can’t get excited about it; and I see no Constitutional issues.

You dont know who is at GITMO. They are being held there without trial so we don't know if they are even guilty of anything. So dont automatically assume everyone down there is out to kill you. I think it is in everyones best interest to start paying attention to what the Govt is doing. They are calling Protestors "Terorists"! If you ever decide to protest something they could do this to you. So wether you agree with the Protestors or not you should be concerned.

[DaveTN]

You dont know who is at GITMO. They are being held there without trial so we don't know if they are even guilty of anything. So dont automatically assume everyone down there is out to kill you. I think it is in everyones best interest to start paying attention to what the Govt is doing. They are calling Protestors "Terorists"! If you ever decide to protest something they could do this to you. So wether you agree with the Protestors or not you should be concerned.

I have been to GITMO; have you? I took 1000 Marines with me when I went. We were one of the only Navy ships ever to get kicked out of GITMO; but that’s a whole other story.

It would be impossible to keep it a secret if Americans were being held there. As far as the others…. The military has some stuff that it needs to keep secret. If they don’t want to say who they have there…. I’m okay with it.

Now…. If you think there are American citizens there that are being denied their Constitutional rights; you get to ask. But you are going to have to depend on what your elected officials that have been there tell you.

After I left the Gator navy I went to a Sub Tender. I worked on nuke boats so I am okay with the concept that the military has things and knows things that you have no need to know.

[Guest JavaGuy]

It's always interesting to me to read comments talking about how the government is getting people for this, that or the other... going to lock you up for what you're saying, writing, thinking. Yep.. the interesting part is that those people who are ranting and raving that their government, their army, navy, air force, marines, etc, are out to get them.. well, somehow those people manage to evade capture and continue spouting their BS in the form of comments.

Veterans, thank all of you for your service.. no matter where or when you served. My daughter is in the sandbox right now, and reading tripe about how "bad" our soldiers are offends me too.

[Guest jth_3s]

I have been to GITMO; have you? I took 1000 Marines with me when I went. We were one of the only Navy ships ever to get kicked out of GITMO; but that’s a whole other story.

It would be impossible to keep it a secret if Americans were being held there. As far as the others…. The military has some stuff that it needs to keep secret. If they don’t want to say who they have there…. I’m okay with it.

Now…. If you think there are American citizens there that are being denied their Constitutional rights; you get to ask. But you are going to have to depend on what your elected officials that have been there tell you.

After I left the Gator navy I went to a Sub Tender. I worked on nuke boats so I am okay with the concept that the military has things and knows things that you have no need to know.

First of all Thanks you for your service:usa:. but There is no way you could have verified the citizenship of the people being detained at GITMO even if you were there. Did you go ask to see their records? There may or may not be US Citizens at GITMO but the Fact is it can happen. Our Civil Liberties are being taken away daily and there is no limit to what Big Brother is capable of. The PATRIOT ACT should scare every Freedom Loving American they can now suspend the Constitution for suspected terrorists, and We're at the point where the Pentagon calls US Citizens Terrorists for questioning the government. Its Time for Real Change.

[leroy]

People die in a war. I backed what Bush wanted to do in the Middle East because it was oblivious we were going to have to do it at some time. He also told us we would not have another Vietnam. (I served during Vietnam, although I was not in combat. I spent most of my time messin’ with Castro in Cuba.) Well another Vietnam is exactly what we have. Years and years of BS and people whining about innocents getting killed or jailed.

I could not care less what they do with the detainees at GITMO. If they want to hang them they need to give them whatever a POW gets prior to hanging. I’m not even sure what that is, but they have no Constitutional rights; or they shoudn’t have. I would assume we have specific laws on how to handle POW’s; don’t we?

Amen brother! You are exactly right!

RE: Your Vietnam war analagy. Right on again.

I believe that the bulk of the great disgust for the Republicans and Bush 43 is exactly what you are pointing out. We were way too reasonable about handling things. This campaign should have been over in a matter of months; not years. Frustrations about this mistake have been continually whipped along by the news media (again, like Vietnam) and the mongrel socialist hippie class in academia, the media, and the rabid partizan Demorats; along with their foolish sons and daughters. It is diagraceful; and in my mind, treasonable.

The same third basing of tactics and general willingness to believe anything bad about the military is exactly the same as it was in Vietnam. Make no mistake; it was about politics then and it is now.

These self-loathing third basers hate themselves and this country -- it's all about politics and them being the smartest guys in the room about everything, especially government -- they are dismissive about everything American; and want to remake this country in their own evil, morally bankrupt image; while involking platitudinous pronouncements about liberty and the rule of law.

They conveniently forget what happened with the Marine Barracks Bombing in Lebanon by Hezbolla, the total destruction of the country of Lebanon, the almost daily murder of Israelis, the wiping out of a couple of generations of Iraq's and Iranians in the "real Iran-Iraq war in the 80's, the bombing of the USS Cole, Somalia, and several other places the US was attacked -- let alone the Twin Towers. They think it's all right to let American soldiers be killed; but not these murdering thugs who rape their mothers and sisters and kill their own brothers and sell them into slavery. The whole thing is sickening. That's why im so contemptious of them; they are, as the Russians were fond of saying; "enemies of the state." They have no character and seek to degrade those who do.

RE: The unending war.

It is my firm belief that if we had started killing these thugs sooner, instead of ignoring them and trying to buy their favor, there would not have been the killing that has went on to date. That is exactly what Israel does; they live with this problem ever day. Our inaction on this issue is what has moved this plague from the middle east to our own shores. Now, a Volunteer Army (God bless 'em) is having to fix about 30 years of problems -- I, personally don't see how they do the job they do for some of the trash that resides in this country. They are far more corageous and giving than I am. I do not believe that the whole lot of these tenth century monsters and the slaves they have made is worth one pin prick of american blood.

Like you, I don't give a rat's patute about what happens to these tenth century thugs at Guantanamo. As and old buddy of mine is fond of saying about death row inmates: "lets fire up the electric bleachers."

That's how i see it --- let the whining and indignation begin.

LEROY

[Guest mustangdave]

Damn right!

+2 on that...thank you Mark

[Guest mustangdave]

You dont know who is at GITMO. They are being held there without trial so we don't know if they are even guilty of anything. So dont automatically assume everyone down there is out to kill you. I think it is in everyones best interest to start paying attention to what the Govt is doing. They are calling Protestors "Terorists"! If you ever decide to protest something they could do this to you. So wether you agree with the Protestors or not you should be concerned.

Frankly...the crop of towel heads at GITMO were there cause they were CAPTURED on the battlefield...and the CURRENT Left leaning DEMOCRAT controlled government is calling "protestors" TERRORISTS...they want to be FRIENDS with people that have sworn to kill us. I am surprised that ole Hanoi Jane isn't out front leading the charge.

[Guest mustangdave]

DaveTN, Leroy, Javaguy...you guys all hit it out of the park. Java...Thank your daughter for me, and god bless her for her service. Leroy...you nailed it brother.

[Guest KevinM]

Frankly...the crop of towel heads at GITMO were there cause they were CAPTURED on the battlefield...

Towel heads? Unbelievable. We have more allies in the Middle East than enemies and you refer to them as "towel heads". Many of them are Christians and I bet if you ran into them at Walmart or wherever you hang out, you would simple assume they are muslim "towel heads".

At least I know now never to take people like you the slightest bit seriously. What a disgrace...

and the CURRENT Left leaning DEMOCRAT controlled government is calling "protestors" TERRORISTS...

One side always labels the other potential terrorists. It's nothing new.

they want to be FRIENDS with people that have sworn to kill us. I am surprised that ole Hanoi Jane isn't out front leading the charge.

I'm not going to speak for Obama. He is merely picking up where Bush left off. There is very little difference between the two besides a little rhetoric. But you speak in very general terms.It is a tiny minority that have "sworn to kill us". Look at what is happening in Iran right now. It isn't some monolithic nation where everyone thinks we are infidels. Iranians aren't even "towel heads", they are not Arabs. Most of the them are Pro America. I was in the local Persian station a mile from my home and they had Iranian satellite news on. It hardly towed the line of the hardliners in Iran, but you wouldn't know it from what our "news" spoonfeeds us everyday..

[Guest KevinM]

Actually, kidnapping innocents off the streets and beheading them for propaganda videos would be more in line with 'akin to our enemies'.

Frankly, as a veteran, I have reached redline with the people who are so willing and eager to believe that our military is a) incompetent has no honor and c) has the same or lower level of morality than those we are currently facing in a shooting war. Believe me or not, the fact is that the people I served with over the last nearly thirty years have, as a rule, a strong sense of right and wrong, a strong sense of personal honor and how it demands we performed our duties, and better intelligence than the CNN/ABC/NBC ex-spurts. The accusations I've been reading and hearing over the last few years (especially the 'truthers') is an insult to my service, my honor, and my intelligence.

If you happen to have documented evidence of a massacre of innocents. or of imprisoning innocents to meet some sort of quota, or something of that nature, bring it on. I'd help you attack 'the system' to get these injustices righted.

Otherwise, put up, shut up, or arrange a time and place where we can settle this as gentlemen.

/rant off.

Invoking the fact that were a member of the military doesn't give you any sort of special class and doesn't necessarily make you an authority on the truth. It doesn't mean you don't have the facts either. It is largely irrelevant given the fact that you know little about me. But if I was a member of the military...it would also be largely irrelevant to what is FACT and what is NOT. Because believe it or not...many, many, MANY ex and current military know the score and their patriotism is no more or less ripe for criticism as my own...

Kidnapping innocents and beheading them huh? Ever heard of The Phoenix program?

Phoenix Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can make a long list of ex military that believe many of the same things as I. Would you also deem them unpatriotic and wish to start a physical altercation with them as well?

Edited June 19, 2009 by KevinM

[Guest mustangdave]

Kevin, invoking the fact that some of us were/are in the military doesn't give us some sort of "special class"...you're correct. What it does do...is give us a MUCH different perspective...and YES there are differing opinions EVEN in the ranks. I thoroughly understand where you're coming from, most of us here know where you're coming from. We're even willing to read some of the poppy-cock you reference. I realize as do others that we aren't about to change your world view...and you are darn sure NOT going to change most of ours. The sad fact of the matter about GITMO is that it probably WON'T be closed any time soon...not this year...not next year.

[E4 No More]

OMG! He cited Wiki as a source?

[Guest mustangdave]

at least it wasn't SNOPES

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

"War is hell" is no cop-out. They attacked, we retailiated. War isn't a high school fight. We can't just walk away and be the "better man". We are better because we do the best we can with what we've got. War is 50% science 50% art. There's a reason the writings of Sun Tzu were called "The Art of War". We've come along way since WWII bombing everything to bits, but "surgical precision" still doen't make us perfect. When it comes down the line to us or them. I choose us everytime. No matter what people want to believe there is no option C to "talk" our way out of this. If we could talk to Al-Queda, we would have already. We didn't choose this postion, they did. So stop blaming us when we do what we have to do. Blame them for putting us in this position.

Golda Meir put it best: "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."

[Guest SUNTZU]

Invoking the fact that were a member of the military doesn't give you any sort of special class and doesn't necessarily make you an authority on the truth. It doesn't mean you don't have the facts either. It is largely irrelevant given the fact that you know little about me. But if I was a member of the military...it would also be largely irrelevant to what is FACT and what is NOT. Because believe it or not...many, many, MANY ex and current military know the score and their patriotism is no more or less ripe for criticism as my own...

McLinks, please.

Kidnapping innocents and beheading them huh? Ever heard of The Phoenix program?

Phoenix Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can make a long list of ex military that believe many of the same things as I. Would you also deem them unpatriotic and wish to start a physical altercation with them as well?

I'd like your long list, please.

Here's an RF platoon that was part of Phoenix.

Look at all the Vietnamese...operating under their own laws.

I will follow you. Help me pick a name.

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