Miranda rights for terrorists

[Guest jth_3s]

its the ACLU...take it all with a good dose of skepticism

Ok heres another one Feds: Teen's not being held under Patriot Act :: WRAL.com

[Guest mustangdave]

I'm just a skeptic...not paranoid...

[RinTN]

Here is an example

...two Pakistani immigrants were held for 49 days before being charged with overstaying their visas; and an Israeli national was held for 66 days before being charged with entering the country illegally. ...

another

... Dr. Al Bader Al-Hazmi, a San Antonio, Texas, Saudi national ... Tarek Mohamed Fayad, an Egyptian national ...

So, how exactly do these examples show a "... US citizen that has been labeled a terrorist..."? Unless I'm reading things wrong, these are all non-US citizens.

And, this one...

Ok heres another one Feds: Teen's not being held under Patriot Act :: WRAL.com

is about a teen who has made several bomb threats. I don't see anything about him being accused of being a terrorist though.

[E4 No More]

So, how exactly do these examples show a "... US citizen that has been labeled a terrorist..."? Unless I'm reading things wrong, these are all non-US citizens.

And, this one...

is about a teen who has made several bomb threats. I don't see anything about him being accused of being a terrorist though.

Exactly! Thank you.

[E4 No More]

Here is an example

Secret Detention

The Department of Justice has launched what appears to be an extensive program of preventive detention. The Department admits that over 1,200 people have been detained in connection with the September 11 attacks. Some have been incarcerated for long periods of time, others held for only hours. Because of the secrecy surrounding the detentions, we do not have a full picture as to how many people are still incarcerated, where they are incarcerated, whether they have access to counsel and how they are being treated. Some of the stories being reported upon are disturbing. According to a Washington Post story, two Pakistani immigrants were held for 49 days before being charged with overstaying their visas; and an Israeli national was held for 66 days before being charged with entering the country illegally.1

American Civil Liberties Union : Testimony of ACLU President Nadine Strossen on National Security and the Constitution

Have you ever known a journalist to make up a story and make it appear as based on fact? THERE ARE NO NAMES, JUST ACCUSATIONS.

I'll repeat the question: Can you give me the name of one US citizen who was declared a terrorist and denied their rights?

[Guest jth_3s]

So, how exactly do these examples show a "... US citizen that has been labeled a terrorist..."? Unless I'm reading things wrong, these are all non-US citizens.

And, this one...

is about a teen who has made several bomb threats. I don't see anything about him being accused of being a terrorist though.

1.You are correct they were foreign nationals legally in our country except for the ones in the first paragraph. They are protected by the constitution.

2.Read the paragraph he was never accused of being a terrorist but he was denied due process by the Federal Government.

[Guest jth_3s]

Have you ever known a journalist to make up a story and make it appear as based on fact? THERE ARE NO NAMES, JUST ACCUSATIONS.

I'll repeat the question: Can you give me the name of one US citizen who was declared a terrorist and denied their rights?

Dr. Al Bader Al-Hazmi was a Saudi National legally in the country who should have been by the constitution and was not. And the 16 year old citizen might not have been called a terrorist but under new laws he was denied due process.

[RinTN]

1.You are correct they were foreign nationals legally in our country except for the ones in the first paragraph. They are protected by the constitution.

Hey, he specifically said US citizens, and these clearly are not.

2.Read the paragraph he was never accused of being a terrorist but he was denied due process by the Federal Government.

His *mother* claims he was denied his rights. She also claims that he is her poor innocent little thing that is being wrongly accused. I suspect that the reality - on all accounts - is very different from what she is claiming.

[Guest KevinM]

denied due process.

Due process? What's that? All I care about is guns.

(note sarcasm)

[DaveTN]

The Japanese, Vietnamese, and Germans were ruthless to our servicemen that were captured.

All of the countries that we have been at war with have tortured our troops so brutally that we wouldn’t even be allowed to post the pictures here.

However…. For many all is forgiven. Look in your garages; you have seen fit to overlook what the Japanese did to our Grandfathers or Great-grandfathers.

Are what we doing even approaching the level of what these other countries did? No.

Just because they aren’t a citizen of a specific country doesn’t mean they aren’t military combatants.

We water boarded some terrorists and put panties on their heads….. Big deal.

Hell we made some sacrificial lambs out of some members of our military and sent them to prison. There is the real crime. Whoever authorized that needs to be in jail.

Innocent people get killed in wars and terrorists don’t have rights; that’s just the way it is.

[Guest jth_3s]

Due process? What's that? All I care about is guns.

(note sarcasm)

I know what you mean. I dont know why I even try to convince people that our rights are being eroded daily, they could care less as long as they don't mess with the 2nd amendment. Nobody on here will say a bad thing about Bush, the PATRIOT ACT, FISA ACT, or any violations of our liberties.

[Guest jth_3s]

The Japanese, Vietnamese, and Germans were ruthless to our servicemen that were captured.

All of the countries that we have been at war with have tortured our troops so brutally that we wouldn’t even be allowed to post the pictures here.

However…. For many all is forgiven. Look in your garages; you have seen fit to overlook what the Japanese did to our Grandfathers or Great-grandfathers.

Are what we doing even approaching the level of what these other countries did? No.

Just because they aren’t a citizen of a specific country doesn’t mean they aren’t military combatants.

We water boarded some terrorists and put panties on their heads….. Big deal.

Hell we made some sacrificial lambs out of some members of our military and sent them to prison. There is the real crime. Whoever authorized that needs to be in jail.

Innocent people get killed in wars and terrorists don’t have rights; that’s just the way it is.

Waterboarding is a War Crime and is wrong no matter who you do it to. Most of the "Terrorists" are POWs and and should be treated as such. They are fighting a guerrilla war and in their view defending their country just as we would if we were invaided. The Japanese waterboarded our POWs in WWII, it was wrong then and it is wrong now.

Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

[leroy]

Waterboarding is a War Crime and is wrong no matter who you do it to. Most of the "Terrorists" are POWs (most terrorists, are, in fact, hardened foreign fighters) and should be treated as such. ....The people we are fighting in afganistan and iraq are for the most part hardened 'foreign fighters" with a 10 th century conquer the world philosophy. They are not defending their country; they don't agree with the present boundaries. They intend to CONQUER all of the middle east, conquer the rest of the world, and make the infidels (thats us) submit to their particular brand of Islam. If they suceed, you won't have to worry about rights; you won't have any (if you are still alive). In the late 1700's they were called the Barbary Pirates; and they were doing the same things the "foreign fighters" are doing now in afganistan and somalia. We dispatched the Marines to finish them and they did at a place called Tripoli. They were tenth century thugs and priates who raped their mothers and daughters and sold their brothers into slavery. They are the same guys today. We need to keep killing these guys until they decide to leave us alone. ....Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said. I could care less what the trash like Edward M Kennedy and those like him think about torture. They are simply demigogues leading the foolish around to make political points. Kennedy's only goal was to make political points for the Democrats and discredit George Bush. In the process; he damaged the efforts of the military who are busy killing these guys and made their job considerably more difficult. This was unheard of in American History -- The patron saint of the Democrats, the great FDR would have put Kennedy in the penetentiary if he had tried such a seditious grandstand play during WWII -- and, in my view, he should have.

More than that; the Japanese were the true masters of torture. The infamous Unit 731 carried out horrific torture and germ warfare experiments on folks in mainland china -- on allied prisoners of war, including Americans. It is obscene in my view to invoke the purported "wisdom" of people like Kennedy and to worry about a no count Japanese WW II thug who conveniently found a podium to speak out about his captors. The USA militarily defeated the Japanese in WWII and then spent billions rebuilding their society and giving them freedom. They are now a democratic state. Before; they were a bunch of feudal nuts run by even nuttier dictitorial leaders.

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - washingtonpost.com

Regarding the "evil" George Bush; the only mistake he made was being too reasonable in going after these thugs.

LEROY

[Guest mustangdave]

Jth_3s....I am at a loss for words...are you really as naive as your comments suggest? I can't for the life of me understand why everything this country does is EVIL incarnate to those of your political stripe. I do however respect your right to be naive and decieved.

[Guest KevinM]

I know what you mean. I dont know why I even try to convince people that our rights are being eroded daily, they could care less as long as they don't mess with the 2nd amendment. Nobody on here will say a bad thing about Bush, the PATRIOT ACT, FISA ACT, or any violations of our liberties.

It appears that many here are "pro gun" as opposed to "pro 2nd amendment". They don't understand the Constitution let alone care about the rights guaranteed in it. They just like guns. All patriots are gun owners but not all gun owners are patriots. That much is clear.

Note how they don't argue the merits of their political stance in relation to the Constitution, they simply question our patriotism. I haven't put on a uniform, signed away my rights and carried out federal orders without question, therefore I am "uneducated" and "naive".

The truth is: everything that violates the self evident rights of all human beings it tyranny. And tyranny is Anti American. Torturing people and locking them away without charge in the name of fighting people who would torture and lock people away without charge is really about the silliest thing I have ever pondered.

It defies common sense...and is saddening.

You know...I've always wondered about the contemporary phenomena of "conservative" states being known as "red states."

Democrats VS Republicans....Lenin VS Trotsky?

[Guest KevinM]

The Japanese, Vietnamese, and Germans were ruthless to our servicemen that were captured. All of the countries that we have been at war with have tortured our troops so brutally that we wouldn’t even be allowed to post the pictures here.

And we to them...that doesn't make it acceptable. Making excuses is simply making excuses.

However…. For many all is forgiven. Look in your garages; you have seen fit to overlook what the Japanese did to our Grandfathers or Great-grandfathers.

I have overlooked nothing. Both my grandfathers went to Germany. They were Christians and would have found torture unacceptable.

Are what we doing even approaching the level of what these other countries did? No.

Yes. And they did what they did in the name of fighting terrorism.

Just because they aren’t a citizen of a specific country doesn’t mean they aren’t military combatants.

"Military combatants" is just a euphemism....a couple of words some idiot put together to keep from having to call them human beings with inalienable and self evident rights.

We water boarded some terrorists and put panties on their heads….. Big deal.

We also killed some of them. Read the Taguba Report.

Hell we made some sacrificial lambs out of some members of our military and sent them to prison.

That was wrong. The people that ordered them to do what they did should be punished.

There is the real crime. Whoever authorized that needs to be in jail.

I agree.

Innocent people get killed in wars and terrorists don’t have rights; that’s just the way it is.

That is a complete and utter cop out and isn't an argument that proves anything. "that’s just the way it is"..no, it is not. The founders would disagree and the Supreme court DOES INDEED disagree.

You cannot simply dub someone a terrorist/rapist/murderer without proof. It is called DUE PROCESS.

All people on the planet have inalienable and self evident rights. And stating that TRUTH does not make me a "liberal" or "dove" or "soft on terrorism". It makes me someone who understands why this nation was founded and what the constitution says is the law.

Our laws are what separate us from our enemies...

[Guest Dean_JC78]

The whole thing makes no sense at all. First of all these are not citizens of our Country. They have no rights at all under our Constitution. To suggest they do would suggest all people in the entire world have the same rights we do. Does that mean is somebody in India or Congo robs a store do they have the right to an attorney paid for by the US tax payers? Should we go around the world and make sure no troops are quartered by civilians and that everyone nobodys right to bear arms is infringed?

Our Military is not a police force. We need to stop shifting them in that direction and let them focus on their trade. We can not and should not be the world police. This is just another step in that direction for the US. I pray that in 2010 we can at least get some grid lock and then in 2012 get somebody decent in the White House for a change as its been 21 years since we had a good President!

Edited June 13, 2009 by Dean_JC78

[Smith]

BTW they don't even qualify for rights under the Geneva convention.

[Guest KevinM]

BTW they don't even qualify for rights under the Geneva convention.

You a fan of the UN or something?

I don't give two flips about the Geneva convention. I care about MY country and its laws.

[Guest jth_3s]

Jth_3s....I am at a loss for words...are you really as naive as your comments suggest? I can't for the life of me understand why everything this country does is EVIL incarnate to those of your political stripe. I do however respect your right to be naive and decieved.

I dont think everything this country does is evil, I think the elected officials are evil. If this country would elect more people Like Ron Paul and Jesse Ventura and if we would stick to the Principles this country was founded on we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. The way we are headed is down a steep slippery slope.

[Guest KevinM]

They have no rights at all under our Constitution. To suggest they do would suggest all people in the entire world have the same rights we do. Does that mean is somebody in India or Congo robs a store do they have the right to an attorney paid for by the US tax payers? Should we go around the world and make sure no troops are quartered by civilians and that everyone nobodys right to bear arms is infringed?

They do indeed have rights, many of which are indeed in the Constitution. Do they have the right to come here and be citizens? No. Do they have the right to an American attorney? Of course not. But they have the right not to be tortured. And not to be occupied where the rights that are "self evident"ly guaranteed in our 4th and 5th amendment are violated wholesale.

Our Military is not a police force. We need to stop shifting them in that direction and let them focus on their trade. We can not and should not be the world police. This is just another step in that direction for the US. I pray that in 2010 we can at least get some grid lock and then in 2012 get somebody decent in the White House for a change as its been 21 years since we had a good President!

Here we are in total COMPLETE agreement. I thought we were going to take out Saddam and the war would pay for itself. They never told us we would occupy the nation for DECADES, which is the official plan. The situation is BEYOND RIDICULOUS. We were told the war would pay for itself. Our economy is falling apart while we're spending trillions in Iraq.

And Bush was the biggest liberal president we've ever had until Obama came along...

[Guest KevinM]

...and Jesse Ventura

Speaking of...

[Guest jth_3s]

Hey, he specifically said US citizens, and these clearly are not.

I never said I could name a us citizen called a terrorist and stripped of DUE PROCESS I said US residents. They too are entitled to DUE PROCESS. And I gave an example of the 16 year old that was deprived of due process. Wether you like it or not the PATRIOT ACT gives the Federal Government the ability to violate virtually every right we have under the constitution.

[analog_kidd]

Fifth Ammendment: No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Looks to me like the Fifth Ammendment "Right" specifically doesn't apply to the military. So even if US rights did apply to enemy combatants, they don't get this one.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It also looks like the Declaration of Independence only spells out the the "Inalienable Rights" we have are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I don't think these enemy combatants have been denied any of these. It's when their pursuit of these things starts to interfere with others pursuit of them that they have a problem. If what makes them happy is killing us, well that doesn't make me happy, and it deprives me of my life.

[leroy]

Looks to me like the Fifth Ammendment "Right" specifically doesn't apply to the military. So even if US rights did apply to enemy combatants, they don't get this one.

It also looks like the Declaration of Independence only spells out the the "Inalienable Rights" we have are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I don't think these enemy combatants have been denied any of these. It's when their pursuit of these things starts to interfere with others pursuit of them that they have a problem. If what makes them happy is killing us, well that doesn't make me happy, and it deprives me of my life.[/QUOTE]

Well said!! Great job!!

Keep up the good work!

Kind regards,

LEROY