Miranda rights for terrorists

[Good_Steward]

So, you are suggesting Im some sort of liberal/communist because I believe tyranny isn't something that is compatible with the US Constitution? That's interesting...because communist nations have a very deep history of torturing people.

I'm not "anti everything", I am anti tyranny. Just like the people that wrote the Constitution and founded our nation on an explicit set of principles.

Oh, and torture...I am indeed anti torture. It goes against everything that sets our nation apart from nations like Cuba, China, Russia, etc...

Well, Kevin, I am certainly not saying you are a communist. What I am saying is that while you sit on your throne and debate how the Constitution was written with enemy combatants in mind, there are people out there doing what needs to be done to make sure that the United States never suffers another attack that costs thousands of American lives. That's your opinion. Thankfully, not everyone shares your opinion, or we would likely be overridden with jihadists doing WHATEVER they could to destroy us, by any means necessary.

Personally, I would rather have those same enemies who would destroy us, and take innocent lives, tortured 4 times a day - 8 on Sundays - than to have one single American die. If that makes me some kind of fascist in your eyes, well, I'm glad I'm not concerned with how you see me.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Good_Steward

[DaveTN]

Why not? You have plenty of time to read then to them while they are on a water board or getting their azz kicked. I don’t see a problem.

[Raoul]

Well, Kevin, I am certainly not saying you are a communist. What I am saying is that while you sit on your throne and debate how the Constitution was written with enemy combatants in mind, there are people out there doing what needs to be done to make sure that the United States never suffers another attack that costs thousands of American lives. That's your opinion. Thankfully, not everyone shares your opinion, or we would likely be overridden with jihadists doing WHATEVER they could to destroy us, by any means necessary.

Personally, I would rather have those same enemies who would destroy us, and take innocent lives, tortured 4 times a day - 8 on Sundays - than to have one single American die. If that makes me some kind of fascist in your eyes, well, I'm glad I'm not concerned with how you see me.

I suppose my only question in this debate is who makes the decision as to whom is an enemy of the state?

The Obamatrons would like for us to believe that 'right wing extremists" are a problem in the USA. Perhaps so, but who decides which of us falls into that category? I'm just saying...

[Punisher84]

BWahahhaaa....playing the patriot card. How typical. Perhaps if you people read the Constitution you swore an oath to, I wouldn't have to spoon feed you. Getting paid/bribed into wearing a uniform doesn't magically turn you into some sort of super patriot. Fighting for the principles our nation was founded on...THAT is what makes a patriot.

Nice words coming from a guy who has never served. True donning a uniform for a paycheck doesn't make you a patriot. Fighting for the freedom of your country and fighting for the safety of your fellow Americans (and yes doing things that some people may not agree with) with little to no thanks makes you a patriot.

You rant about reading the Constitution. Great I'm glad you read it. I'll be honest I have not read it word for word so if that makes my opinion less valid to you so be it, but you can read anything. Understanding it is different, but hey everybody likes to put their own spin on things right?

The fact is...I serve my country each and every day.

How? What do you do every day that makes you the bright shiny star for the American future because of your moral superiority?

[Guest bkelm18]

You can't reason with people like him, haha. You're just going to get yourself more frustrated.

[analog_kidd]

Kevin, you say that our Constitution applies to the Terrorists we capture and they should be afforded the exact same rights that we citizens get. But let's look at that from a different perspective. If OUR constitution applies to them, then their Constitution would apply to us by your way of thinking. In some Mid-East countries, husbands have the legal right to beat their wives. So do we have that right?

It's rediculous to think so. Our Constitution applies to US Citizens. Their laws apply to them. They do not get the same rights as we do.

Also, you keep quoting the Declaration of Independance. While it is a great document, it really is nothing more. It has absolutely no legal standing at all.

[Guest SUNTZU]

So I'm not a patriot since I've never served?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that basically KevinM is worried about voting in someone at the opposite end of the spectrum as Obama. Someone who could take our rights away just as easily. I guess that's what your trying to say, KevinM, you're just being extremely caustic about it.

[Punisher84]

So I'm not a patriot since I've never served?

Nope you gotta wear the uniform man!

[Guest jth_3s]

Unreal. You people are obsessed with the 2nd amendment but don't seem to care or know anything about the 4th or 5th. People have basic rights. ALL people. You can't just magically deem someone a terrorist or a criminal without DUE PROCESS. That is what makes America different from say...Russia, China or Cuba.

Fighting so-called terrorists by ACTING LIKE TERRORISTS simply levels the moral high ground that separates good people from bad.

Sadly, many people actually believe that scenarios like those they see on "24" mirror real life.

It is fiction....and no I have no love for Obama. This is mere posturing to pander to his base.

+1 To bad more people on this board dont respect the Constitution The 4th and 5th amendments are just as important as the 2nd and until someone is convicted of terrorism they are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

[Guest Revelator]

Nope you gotta wear the uniform man!

This uniform right here.

[Guest bkelm18]

+1 To bad more people on this board dont respect the Constitution The 4th and 5th amendments are just as important as the 2nd and until someone is convicted of terrorism they are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

That statement right there just goes to show how little you understand us and the constitution.

[leroy]

It is "well said" only if you prefer rhetoric over actual substance...

The way I see it, David's post is a valid observation of the current state of affairs in many instances in our culture . We are the only nation on the face of the earth that has enough wealth and freedom to allow the childish to construct and live in a fantasy world full of childish thinking and let it go on well passed the age when most people become productive members of society and to wake up to the reality of the responsibilities of living in a less than perfect world. By the way; the first sentence is not laced with "retoric"; the second sentence is. The "retorical" style gives more readability and insight to the post -- it is a restatement of David's post.

Hope this helps,

LEROY

[Guest jth_3s]

That statement right there just goes to show how little you understand us and the constitution.

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't reffering to everyone on the board. It just disgusts me that some people are so concerned about the 2nd amendment but when it comes to the 4th and 5th they seem to think those don't matter. And someone accused of terrorism is still innocent until proven guilty and deserve the same rights are anyone accused of a crime.

[Punisher84]

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't reffering to everyone on the board. It just disgusts me that some people are so concerned about the 2nd amendment but when it comes to the 4th and 5th they seem to think those don't matter. And someone accused of terrorism is still innocent until proven guilty and deserve the same rights are anyone accused of a crime.

I think where this is getting confused is people being accused of terrorism that are U.S citizens and people that are foreign nationals. There is a difference.

[leroy]

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't reffering to everyone on the board. It just disgusts me that some people are so concerned about the 2nd amendment but when it comes to the 4th and 5th they seem to think those don't matter. And someone accused of terrorism is still innocent until proven guilty and deserve the same rights are anyone accused of a crime.

Punisher is exactly right. The key here is that U S Citizens or foreign nationals who are legally in the U.S. who are charged with crimes while on U S soil are entitled to "due process" in the U S Court Federal Court System. Foreign fighters captured on foreign battle fields (read that: Afganistan, Iraq, Somalia, etc) ARE NOT ENTITLED to "due process". That's why they are being tried as "enemy combatants" by military tribunal (which is much too reasonable in my view, if you read the details). Enemy combatants are, in fact, "Enemies of the U. S." by their presence on the foreign battlefield and their bearing arms against the US.

LEROY

[Guest TargetShooter84]

You gotta be kidding me.....Miranda Rights for those terrorists?

They can eat my and be shot countless times for all I care. They deserve to DIE for what they have done to us and those that have died fighting for freedom....they do not deserve justice one tiny bit at all.

The Obama vector graph is a clear indication of where things are going as indicated by Turbo.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't reffering to everyone on the board. It just disgusts me that some people are so concerned about the 2nd amendment but when it comes to the 4th and 5th they seem to think those don't matter. And someone accused of terrorism is still innocent until proven guilty and deserve the same rights are anyone accused of a crime.

One of my personal pet peeves.

I HATE the term, "I AM INNOCENT UNTIL I AM PROVEN GUILTY".

W.R.O.N.G.

You are presumed innocent until proven guilty. If you did the act, you are still guilty even if not convicted.

Just picking nits, not trying to get on your case at all, but it's a distinction that has been lost in our society. People seem to think that if they can beat the charges of a crime they committed, they are 'innocent', and that's simply not true.

Anyhow, back to the issue at hand!

[Beretta Racer]

Nice words coming from a guy who has never served. True donning a uniform for a paycheck doesn't make you a patriot. Fighting for the freedom of your country and fighting for the safety of your fellow Americans (and yes doing things that some people may not agree with) with little to no thanks makes you a patriot.

You rant about reading the Constitution. Great I'm glad you read it. I'll be honest I have not read it word for word so if that makes my opinion less valid to you so be it, but you can read anything. Understanding it is different, but hey everybody likes to put their own spin on things right?

How? What do you do every day that makes you the bright shiny star for the American future because of your moral superiority?

I don't believe Kevin is a gun owner or a permit holder. I think he is an Obama loving infiltrator.

Terrorist caught outside of the US have no right to be subject to US civil laws.

[Guest jth_3s]

Punisher is exactly right. The key here is that U S Citizens or foreign nationals who are legally in the U.S. who are charged with crimes while on U S soil are entitled to "due process" in the U S Court Federal Court System. Foreign fighters captured on foreign battle fields (read that: Afganistan, Iraq, Somalia, etc) ARE NOT ENTITLED to "due process". That's why they are being tried as "enemy combatants" by military tribunal (which is much too reasonable in my view, if you read the details). Enemy combatants are, in fact, "Enemies of the U. S." by their presence on the foreign battlefield and their bearing arms against the US.

LEROY

I agree Enemy Combatants are not entitled to the rights under the Constitution but they are entitled to certain rights. Torture is a Violation of the agreements in the Geneva Convention and is wrong no matter the circumstances. Another problem is some of the detainees are legal US residents who have been accused of being terrorists. Thanks to recent laws after being deemed a terrorist you no longer have the rights under the Constitution. We are entering scary times, the way the Gov't has been labeling people "Terrorists" or potential terrorists is very much like the way they labeled people "Communists" during the second red scare.

Edited June 12, 2009 by jth_3s

[E4 No More]

I agree Enemy Combatants are not entitled to the rights under the Constitution but they are entitled to certain rights. Torture is a Violation of the agreements in the Geneva Convention and is wrong no matter the circumstances. Another problem is some of the detainees are legal US residents who have been accused of being terrorists. Thanks to recent laws after being deemed a terrorist you no longer have the rights under the Constitution. We are entering scary times, the way the Gov't has been labeling people "Terrorists" or potential terrorists is very much like the way they labeled people "Communists" during the second red scare.

Name one US citizen that has been labeled a terrorist, and has been denied their rights.

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

We are being very kind to these terrorists by letting them live. They are trading the information that they possess for their next lungful of air. I can appreciate your idealism, but son, the world doesn't work that way. These terrorists brought it on themselves. They just had the good fortune to be caught instead of ventilated.

[E4 No More]

What kills me is that I have talked to people who are active in intelligence on the battlefield in Afghanistan, and they tell me what a "suspected terrorist" has to go through to be sent to Guantanamo. There are so many hoops that the military has to jump through that the only thing better, (more positive), would be if the terrorists wore uniforms. And then you have these clowns wanting to extend our rights to them? It's just ludicrous!

[Guest jth_3s]

Name one US citizen that has been labeled a terrorist, and has been denied their rights.

Here is an example

Secret Detention

The Department of Justice has launched what appears to be an extensive program of preventive detention. The Department admits that over 1,200 people have been detained in connection with the September 11 attacks. Some have been incarcerated for long periods of time, others held for only hours. Because of the secrecy surrounding the detentions, we do not have a full picture as to how many people are still incarcerated, where they are incarcerated, whether they have access to counsel and how they are being treated. Some of the stories being reported upon are disturbing. According to a Washington Post story, two Pakistani immigrants were held for 49 days before being charged with overstaying their visas; and an Israeli national was held for 66 days before being charged with entering the country illegally.1

American Civil Liberties Union : Testimony of ACLU President Nadine Strossen on National Security and the Constitution

[Guest jth_3s]

another

We have the most urgent concern for the detainees who are being held on immigration charges because their access to legal counsel is limited. Although the Attorney General assures us that everyone being held has had access to counsel, many stories are coming to light that belie this assertion. For example, Dr. Al Bader Al-Hazmi, a San Antonio, Texas, Saudi national and a radiologist at the Texas Health Science Center was held incommunicado -- denied access to either his lawyer or his family -- for seven days. After nearly two weeks in detention, Dr. Al-Hazmi was finally released with no charges filed against him. Another troubling example is Tarek Mohamed Fayad, an Egyptian national and dentist residing in California. He was picked up by the FBI on September 13th and then transferred to the Brooklyn Detention Center in New York City, where we believe he remains to this day. According to the Wall Street Journal, it took his lawyer one month before she was able to locate and talk to him.3 If this is the treatment that prominent professionals are receiving, one can only imagine what is happening to people who are less fortunate.

[Guest mustangdave]

its the ACLU...take it all with a good dose of skepticism