State / National Park Carry

[JayC]

I don't think House Amendment #2 was approved... would have been nice...

Also note at least at LBL there appears to be a General Order which seems to prohibit HCP carry... I've got a phone call into Cherokee NF to see if they have any regulations that would prohibit carry.

Here is a link to the bill.

Tennessee General Assembly Legislation

It's pretty difficult to figure out the final wording but if you follow through the ammendments you can put it together. What's pretty interesting is that House ammendment 2 requires at least 1 shooting range to be constructed within each state park.

See Senate ammendment 2 Section 1-I and 1-J for a list of areas that are included.

Notice the language "or other similar public place". Although ammendment 3 removes "wildlife management area". All state and federal land is legal as of the signing of the bill. Local parks take effect September 1 to allow local governments time to opt-out.

[BrandonTN]

This parks thing is getting way too confusing. If I am deemed competent enough to carry in a national park and state park, what makes a national forest any different?

[JayC]

This parks thing is getting way too confusing. If I am deemed competent enough to carry in a national park and state park, what makes a national forest any different?

The general order (which was worked out with the help of the TWRA) to limit hunting to those persons with a valid state hunting license is worded in such a way as not to allow handgun carry in LBL. Since we can't change that general order (federal not state) then we either must except not being able to carry in LBL or must pass yet another law to make a slight change to the law to change the definition of a hunting license to include HCP holders.

[BrandonTN]

The general order (which was worked out with the help of the TWRA) to limit hunting to those persons with a valid state hunting license is worded in such a way as not to allow handgun carry in LBL. Since we can't change that general order (federal not state) then we either must except not being able to carry in LBL or must pass yet another law to make a slight change to the law to change the definition of a hunting license to include HCP holders.

Is that the same for the hundreds, if not thousands of other national forest sites in the US? Or does it vary on a location by location basis?

[Fallguy]

Nevermind......

Didn't read the quoted post right...

[Fallguy]

The general order (which was worked out with the help of the TWRA) to limit hunting to those persons with a valid state hunting license is worded in such a way as not to allow handgun carry in LBL. Since we can't change that general order (federal not state) then we either must except not being able to carry in LBL or must pass yet another law to make a slight change to the law to change the definition of a hunting license to include HCP holders.

Is there anyway to lobby whoever to change the general order or possibly have the Federal level lawmakers introduce a bill/amendment to work around this?

[JayC]

Is that the same for the hundreds, if not thousands of other national forest sites in the US? Or does it vary on a location by location basis?

It appears to vary from one Forest Service managed area to another, the one for LBL was signed by a Forest Supervisor who from my understanding is a political appointment (read political lackey)...

But yes we're going to have to check every bit of federally managed land to see if there are general orders prohibiting guns and get that documentation posted.

[JayC]

Is there anyway to lobby whoever to change the general order or possibly have the Federal level lawmakers introduce a bill/amendment to work around this?

Yes we could come at this from either direction... but it is my understanding the person who makes this call is a political appointment (that is what the LEO answering the phone at the LBL said)... So my hopes of them choosing to change the general order aren't high...

I'm not sure how the Feb 2010 law will impact this, does anybody have a link to the text of that amendment?

[Fallguy]

Yes we could come at this from either direction... but it is my understanding the person who makes this call is a political appointment (that is what the LEO answering the phone at the LBL said)... So my hopes of them choosing to change the general order aren't high...

I'm not sure how the Feb 2010 law will impact this, does anybody have a link to the text of that amendment?

I don't think it will help US Forest land, only National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges under the control of the Dept of the Interior.

Here is the text of it...

• ( Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
  

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  • (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    

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  • (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.
    

I can't post a direct link but here are instructions to follow to get to it.

Start here THOMAS (Library of Congress) then > Bills, Resolutions (left column) > Search Bill Text > Browse by Bill Number > (Under House Bills) 601-700 > Scroll down to 619 and click H.R.632.ENR > Sec 512 is the part about National Parks and Wildlife Refuges

[JayC]

Yeah, so we can attack this on the federal level, or the state level... both would work... Having the TWRA consider the HCP a type of "hunting permit" with a 365 day season for self defense would solve the problem with the general order at LBL Still waiting to hear back from Cherokee I'll call them again on Monday and see if I can get a call back this time.

I don't think it will help US Forest land, only National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges under the control of the Dept of the Interior.

Here is the text of it...

I can't post a direct link but here are instructions to follow to get to it.

Start here THOMAS (Library of Congress) then > Bills, Resolutions (left column) > Search Bill Text > Browse by Bill Number > (Under House Bills) 601-700 > Scroll down to 619 and click H.R.632.ENR > Sec 512 is the part about National Parks and Wildlife Refuges

[Fallguy]

Yeah, so we can attack this on the federal level, or the state level... both would work... Having the TWRA consider the HCP a type of "hunting permit" with a 365 day season for self defense would solve the problem with the general order at LBL Still waiting to hear back from Cherokee I'll call them again on Monday and see if I can get a call back this time.

That would work, but to be honest, not sure the state would ever mention "hunting" license and HCP in the same breath....lol

Although probably the more difficult route, I still feel changing the general order at LBL would be the simplest way to go.

Look forward to hearing your post about Cherokee....I mean if it is a National Forest, managed by the state of TN, then state law should determine carry right?

[JayC]

That would work, but to be honest, not sure the state would ever mention "hunting" license and HCP in the same breath....lol

Although probably the more difficult route, I still feel changing the general order at LBL would be the simplest way to go.

Look forward to hearing your post about Cherokee....I mean if it is a National Forest, managed by the state of TN, then state law should determine carry right?

Do we (TN) entirely managed Cherokee NF? I thought it was managed by the Forest Service? The department I called at both LBL and Cherokee claimed to be Forest Service (federal) employees.

Yeah getting the general order re worded would solve the problem. If we do run either of these sites then forcing a change wouldn't be as hard.

[Fallguy]

Do we (TN) entirely managed Cherokee NF? I thought it was managed by the Forest Service? The department I called at both LBL and Cherokee claimed to be Forest Service (federal) employees.

Yeah getting the general order re worded would solve the problem. If we do run either of these sites then forcing a change wouldn't be as hard.

I don't think KY or TN manage LBL.

On Cherokee I thought others had posted it was managed by the TWRA, but I am not sure myself.

[JayC]

I don't think KY or TN manage LBL.

On Cherokee I thought others had posted it was managed by the TWRA, but I am not sure myself.

I believe the WMA (ie hunting) stuff is managed by the TWRA (as well as on the TN part of LBL)... but I think the Cherokee National Forest is ran and largely managed by the Forest Service, although I'm not positive of that.

[Fallguy]

I believe the WMA (ie hunting) stuff is managed by the TWRA (as well as on the TN part of LBL)... but I think the Cherokee National Forest is ran and largely managed by the Forest Service, although I'm not positive of that.

Ah ok....

Well then as far as Cherokee NF goes, we know there is no Federal Law that prohibits carry in National Forest, TN has just passed a law to allow carry in National Forest, so unless there is some local regulation made by the Ranger in charge of Cherokee NF, carry should be legal there, right?

If so, just need to try and figure out who to talk to to get the order against carry at LBL changed.

[JayC]

Ah ok....

Well then as far as Cherokee NF goes, we know there is no Federal Law that prohibits carry in National Forest, TN has just passed a law to allow carry in National Forest, so unless there is some local regulation made by the Ranger in charge of Cherokee NF, carry should be legal there, right?

If so, just need to try and figure out who to talk to to get the order against carry at LBL changed.

I've requested a copy of the order be mailed to me (some reason they don't have it online or can email it) of the LBL General Order, once we see which level wrote the order, we'll have a good idea who can change it. My understanding is that it must be Forest Supervisor level or higher to sign such orders.

And correct unless there is a General Order or similar regulation for Cherokee carry should be legal there. Or at least that is my understanding.

[Fallguy]

Good deal, make sure to let us know when you get a copy of the order.