Torture Poll

[Guest justme]

Pretty sure Obama's not calling those shots, chief.

I'll trust the intel from our guys in the military, NSA, and CIA to know who to take where, when, and why. Their intel may not be perfect 100% of the time, but it's certainly better than mine or yours.

is that the same intel guys who said there were WMDs in Iraq? Is it the same intel guys who eavesdrop on American citizens on a regular basis, and who pull in tens of thousands of communications "accidentally"?

Is it the same intel guys who missed the boat on 9-11?

In the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency--there isn't enough "intelligence" for a chimp to use to figure out how to turn a doorknob.

Well, I'm an American citizen, not an enemy combatant or resident of a country that harbors terrorists.

Reallly? let me see here--you are in a country whose leaders now have the authority to classify anyone--anyone an enemy combatant. And yes, that does include you, and everyone of us.

you are in a country that views those who believe in the Constitution as "potential terrorists"

you are in a country that eavesdropped illegally on its' own citizens

You are in a country that sees soldiers as possible "terrorist recruits"....

Seems to me you already are in a country that views you as an enemy combatant....the only thing left for them to do is make it official and sweep up the dissenters and take them to "re-education camps"

[Guest KevinM]

Pretty sure Obama's not calling those shots, chief. I'll trust the intel from our guys in the military, NSA, and CIA to know who to take where, when, and why. Their intel may not be perfect 100% of the time, but it's certainly better than mine or yours.

This is called blind patriotism. No one should be given the benefit of the doubt when they are taking away people's freedom.

The buck stops with Obama.

Well, I'm an American citizen, not an enemy combatant or resident of a country that harbors terrorists.

Ah, so I guess it was a typo when they wrote "self evident" and "all people are created equal".

Good to know. Fascism makes things so much easier...

[Punisher84]

So...your uniform is a patriotic trump card? Is that what you are suggesting?

Nope, but wearing it gave me an insight to things that changed my opinions of the world drastically.

I also don't believe the BoR or the DoI gives anything to foreign terrorists.

Look, if it makes you feel better to think of me and others here as "bad people" go right ahead, but you will NEVER change my mind about this. Just as I assume I will never change yours and you will feel morally superior to me, but hey who is right?

[Guest justme]

For the record you guys do know they torture our own guys in SERE school right?

yes...and how they get around the US laws outlawing torture I don't know.

[Punisher84]

yes...and how they get around the US laws outlawing torture I don't know.

Because they are submitting to it voluntarily.

[Guest justme]

Nope, but wearing it gave me an insight to things that changed my opinions of the world drastically.

the world is a dark evil place, filled with people who would just as soon cut the throats of any one of us as look at us simply because we are Americans...I know the way it works.

Look, if it makes you feel better to think of me and others here as "bad people" go right ahead, but you will NEVER change my mind about this. Just as I assume I will never change yours and you will feel morally superior to me, but hey who is right?

I don't think of you as a "bad person", and I for one do not think myself morally superior....as for who is right--that is up for debate, but this is not an issue that is going to be solved on this or any other internet forum...

I do say--they do it to us, so we do it to them--it is a self-breeding cycle that never ends...

I also say--we condone it done to them--it is just as easily brought over here and done to us...this is not a road that goes anywhere pleasant--it heads us directly downhill.

[Guest KevinM]

I also don't believe the BoR or the DoI gives anything to foreign terrorists.

It does apply to all people, including foreigners and simply calling someone a "terrorist" doesn't make it so. Just like simply calling you a criminal doesn't make it so. That is why we have a little thing call "due process".

Look, if it makes you feel better to think of me and others here as "bad people" go right ahead,

I never said you were "bad". But you are incredibly misled. We are losing our moral highground by torturing people who have been found guilty of nothing.

but you will NEVER change my mind about this. Just as I assume I will never change yours and you will feel morally superior to me, but hey who is right?

I am. Torture is wrong and practicing it ensures the death of America. Its interesting to read people so obsessed with 2nd amendment but don't seem to give a sh^t about the 4th, 5th, etc...

[Guest KevinM]

Because they are submitting to it voluntarily.

Right...and that is the difference. The goat herders tortured at Baghram Air Base in Afghanistan didn't volunteer and were /have been found guilty of nothing.

Yet they were tortured.

[Punisher84]

I am.

Glad you're humble enough to admit it.

I have much respect for the constitution. Hell, I took an oath to defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic. I still stand by that oath, by whatever means necessary.

I don't think you're right, I think you are the one who is misled.

Scream all you want to make yourself feel better or morally superior, but I'll support the guys who get the job done and if one day I find myself flat on my back, with a rag on my face, and a man with a bucket standing next to me because I suddenly became a terrorist like you so fear, I'll give you a call afterwards and say "Man. Waterboarding blows."

[Guest SUNTZU]

Torture is wrong...stay here, I'm going to go ask those guys with the machetes and video camera where their leader is...take my rifle, I don't want to ruffle feathers.

To me, this is torture...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issa_Bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan

Something that doesn't cause lasting damage isn't. Hey man, these cuffs are too tight! They break the skin and cause numbness. Is that torture? Being tackled face first into splitface block, a knee slammed into your back, and your arms jerked behind you when you've done nothing wrong. (Trevor at TFA) Is that torture? He did nothing wrong, but they wanted information on him and his deadly, holstered weapon. (This isn't for LEO bashing, any and everyone, this has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum, I'm trying to make a point.) Maybe that is why they have classes and guidelines for military and government officials to do stuff like this, I don't know. Its hard for me to wrap my mind around, "Its okay to shoot them or blow them up, but not okay to find out where they are prior to another attack." I understand its against the law, thats great. I'm also glad they don't have a lottery to see which Joe Blow off the street gets to go do an interrogation. If I'm ever in a city that gets a dirty bomb set off, I know my last words won't be, "Well thank God we didn't torture those poor lost souls."

I don't know the answer. I guess if you don't want to be called an Islamic terrorist, don't be one, don't hang out with them or their organizations. How the hell would someone do that here in the states anyways? And if you knew how, why would you want to? To try and talk them out of being terrorists?

[Guest mustangdave]

Been outa th eloop for 6 days...over in Williamsburg, VA reconnecting with my AMERICAN Revolutionary roots...

To answer the question posed...simply put...YES

Then you open up a Pandora's box of absurdities. I think there is a preceived notion that there are "rules" to abide by in the use of torture. Lets just get that silly idea out of the way...THERE ARE NO RULES...neither side really has any...they just say they do so that they can spread the disinformation.

[Guest slothful1]

I am pro-torture. Once you've made the decision to go to war, you've already decided that it's OK to kill people who are pretty much just following orders, and even to risk killing innocent people who are merely in the wrong place at the wrong time. Torturing known hostiles is less drastic than that, IMO.

[poak]

This is called blind patriotism. No one should be given the benefit of the doubt when they are taking away people's freedom.

Blind patriotism? For trusting the intelligence agencies to do their jobs that they've been doing since long before you were born?

Hey, if you've got a better idea in how to gather intel and fight the spread of Islamic extremism I, and surely many others, would LOVE to hear it.

is that the same intel guys who said there were WMDs in Iraq? Is it the same intel guys who eavesdrop on American citizens on a regular basis, and who pull in tens of thousands of communications "accidentally"?

Is it the same intel guys who missed the boat on 9-11?

In the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency--there isn't enough "intelligence" for a chimp to use to figure out how to turn a doorknob.

Hey, I'll be the first to admit are intel is not perfect, but what else do we have to work with? I don't think your criticism of these agencies is out of line, but I have yet to hear you offer any solutions to improving the way they work...

I'm sure you've spent enough time on the inside of these agencies to be able to come to the logical conclusion that they are full of idiots...

This is real life, not the movies. We don't have a Jack Bauer or a Jack Ryan to figure out exactly where the bomb is at the last moment becuase they recognized an obscure noise in the back ground of the ransom video the terrorists mailed them...

Reallly? let me see here--you are in a country whose leaders now have the authority to classify anyone--anyone an enemy combatant. And yes, that does include you, and everyone of us.

you are in a country that views those who believe in the Constitution as "potential terrorists"

you are in a country that eavesdropped illegally on its' own citizens

You are in a country that sees soldiers as possible "terrorist recruits"....

Seems to me you already are in a country that views you as an enemy combatant....the only thing left for them to do is make it official and sweep up the dissenters and take them to "re-education camps"

I'm sorry you feel that way about your country. I too find the current political climate troubling, but I don't think it's as dire as you paint it. I, nor anyone I know, has yet to have the jack booted thugs show up and confiscate their weapons and take them to a re-education camp to get a frontal lobotomy.

Last I checked, their is another Presidential election scheduled for 2012. Be there, be heard... or you can sit at home reading your copy of Apathy Monthly and refining the "Keystroke Guevera" persona.

[Guest 44M]

to expect from hard core terrorists to give up very important secrets just because, is very naive.... torture is justified and sometimes the only option to get to the informations military needs.... torture is as justified as is death penalty... both of those work and we should use it more often...

Db

[Guest justme]

Blind patriotism? For trusting the intelligence agencies to do their jobs that they've been doing since long before you were born?

you mean trying to subvert and overthrow legitimate governments? And while we may not agree with countries such as Cuba and Venezuela, we certainly should not be trying to actively subvert or overthrow their governments...

Hey, if you've got a better idea in how to gather intel and fight the spread of Islamic extremism I, and surely many others, would LOVE to hear it.

Simple answer is to either grow a backbone and fight this like it is a real war and unleash the full power of the military like they did when during the taking of Berlin, and the firebombing of Dresden or pull out and call it all a joke. Sometimes it is a necessary evil in the world we live in, but if this is a war, take off the leash and let the dogs out and let's quit trying to play around with these people.....wipe out a city or two where the insurgents are the strongest--or turn Iraq into a sea of glass and make it radioactive and you might actually send a message to Mecca and Tehran and Damascus that you just don't mess with us and let us be--live and let live...but kill, kidnap or harm a single American and be nuked....I'm not against a strong defense--I'm against torture in the sense that it goes against every thing we stand for as a nation...

Hey, I'll be the first to admit are intel is not perfect, but what else do we have to work with? I don't think your criticism of these agencies is out of line, but I have yet to hear you offer any solutions to improving the way they work...

intel is far from perfect because it can and is massaged to fit whatever agenda they have running at the moment.

I'm sure you've spent enough time on the inside of these agencies to be able to come to the logical conclusion that they are full of idiots...

let's see--missed out the fact there was no WMDs in Iraq...missed out on 9/11, missed out on the fact that several of the 9/11 "hijackers" are alive and well--or were BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Hijack 'suspects' alive and well

now how to you miss something like that--kinda hard to be dead and alive at the same time...

let's see...failed to overthrow Castro...tried, according to some to overthrow Chavez--failed. Eavesdropped on Americans, rakes in communications by the boatloads and calls it "an accident" Kidnapped an innocent person and then actively plotted to keep it quiet--kinda embarrassing to have that out...

that they don't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer is kinda easy to spot...

This is real life, not the movies. We don't have a Jack Bauer or a Jack Ryan to figure out exactly where the bomb is at the last moment becuase they recognized an obscure noise in the back ground of the ransom video the terrorists mailed them...

you're right, this is real life--and in real life everything done by Washington is done with an agenda, always political in nature...and that includes massaging whatever intel they can manage to collect in order to make it fit whatever picture they might be drawing at the moment.

I'm sorry you feel that way about your country. I too find the current political climate troubling, but I don't think it's as dire as you paint it.

I don't like feeling that way--but faced with the evidence:illegal eavesdropping, latest MIAC report classifying Constitution believing individual as "extremists and terrorists", classifying returning military as possible "terrorists"...stating that Ron Paul supporters should be watched, that an individual with a Ron Paul window decal was actually pulled over in the midwest because of the decal and harassed by the police after the MIAC report came out....a government whose stated agenda is to essentially strip us of our right to keep and bear arms in the name of "helping Mexico"...

I, nor anyone I know, has yet to have the jack booted thugs show up and confiscate their weapons and take them to a re-education camp to get a frontal lobotomy.

the fact that police in New Orleans, in conjunction with the national guard were actively and illegally confiscating firearms after Katrina--and actually kicking in doors to do so....and that an Iowa national guard unit was going to conduct an exercise for the purpose of training it's soldiers to go house to house in the search for "an arms dealer"--teaching soldiers how to do a cordon and search...You remember Katrina yes? I do--I helped load trucks going to the disaster zone.

Last I checked, their is another Presidential election scheduled for 2012. Be there, be heard... or you can sit at home reading your copy of Apathy Monthly and refining the "Keystroke Guevera" persona.

on this I have two things to say--first, all politicians are essentially the same animal inside...they all have a personal agenda. The only difference is --which will sell the country out the fastest... some of the people who read this may not agree with that--but history proves it true...

second--your reference to Che Guevera was interesting...you do realize he was there with Castro--he was actually tortured and killed in Bolivia. I assume--perhaps wrongly, that you mention him because he was classified by the US government of the late 50s and early-mid 60s as a Communist who fought alongside Castro and my avatar is the flag of the USSR--so you naturally equate the two--perhaps I assume wrongly...

this article from TIME in 1999 is an interesting read actually...TIME 100: Che Guevara

As for a "keystroke Guevera persona"--sorry, that isn't me. I see things as either right or wrong on things like this--there isn't a grey area to some things.

Edited June 10, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

double post--sorry.

Edited June 10, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

I am pro-torture. Once you've made the decision to go to war, you've already decided that it's OK to kill people who are pretty much just following orders, and even to risk killing innocent people who are merely in the wrong place at the wrong time. Torturing known hostiles is less drastic than that, IMO.

then actually go to "war" and let's get over this bit of playing pattycake and start carpetbombing entire cities in Iraq into rubble and let loose the dogs of war and be done with it and let's do to Iraq what we did to Germany--with the exception of the Marshall Plan--let them rebuild themselves...and send a message to any who would be our enemy--don't mess with us, or all of your cities will end up like the ones we just obliterated....

war is called war for a reason--it is ugly, and we should not fight it often...

[Guest justme]

to expect from hard core terrorists to give up very important secrets just because, is very naive.... torture is justified and sometimes the only option to get to the informations military needs.... torture is as justified as is death penalty... both of those work and we should use it more often...

Db

What is naive is to say "why my government would never do that to our own people"...

while I agree with the death penalty being used on convicted murderers I disagree on torture--we can't claim to be a civilized society and conduct torture at the same time./

[poak]

Dresden? Berlin? It's a different kind of war, it's going to be fought a different way.

As for the "Keystroke Guevera" remark, that was equating Che as being a revolutionary, not as a communist. I was referencing that you seem to preach change constantly, but your only devotion to your ideals is to pump out rant after rant online, not through real world actions.

That's not an out and out insult, just how it looks from where I'm sitting.

[Smith]

So far KevinM your arguments against "torture" are BOR, due process, civil rights, constitution.... You do know those don't apply right? Again come down from the ivory tower of arrogance and realize the work in the trenches is not pretty, clean, nor easy. It is arrogant to 1. assume you are superior to others in the realm of humanity and that you are not capable of what they do 2. to assume you are so much more intelligent than the over 4000 yrs of recorded history that shows us what ultimately works in stopping aggressors.

Do I want war, torture, killing, crime, bad people? No, but you better believe the reality is they exsist and I'm not going to be polite when I try to stop them.

War IS self defense from at least one side. We have not been, nor will we ever be the aggressor! Asking us to not to take every precaution and step to stop the enemy is akin to asking the woman being raped to not fight too hard against her attacker. She just might hurt him in the process and that would just make her as bad as him.

Consistency my friends, Consistency.

You are mixing civil liberties of US citizens with war zone combatants. Two different games. Two different set of rules.

[Guest sstouder]

So far KevinM your arguments against "torture" are BOR, due process, civil rights, constitution.... You do know those don't apply right? Again come down from the ivory tower of arrogance and realize the work in the trenches is not pretty, clean, nor easy. It is arrogant to 1. assume you are superior to others in the realm of humanity and that you are not capable of what they do 2. to assume you are so much more intelligent than the over 4000 yrs of recorded history that shows us what ultimately works in stopping aggressors.

Do I want war, torture, killing, crime, bad people? No, but you better believe the reality is they exsist and I'm not going to be polite when I try to stop them.

War IS self defense from at least one side. We have not been, nor will we ever be the aggressor! Asking us to not to take every precaution and step to stop the enemy is akin to asking the woman being raped to not fight too hard against her attacker. She just might hurt him in the process and that would just make her as bad as him.

Consistency my friends, Consistency.

You are mixing civil liberties of US citizens with war zone combatants. Two different games. Two different set of rules.

+1 thats a great post,

i also agree with torture in certain circumstances/types of torture....to me these people knew what they were getting into when they started this fight...im pretty sure when you sign up to be a "freedom fighter" you understand torture is a possibility of that line of work...some of you speak of civil liberties but it seems to me that should be awared to the civil, not those looking to destroy everything about this great country. If you dont like the game, dont become a player.

ha didnt know this poll would start all this

[Smith]

+1 thats a great post,

i also agree with torture in certain circumstances/types of torture....to me these people knew what they were getting into when they started this fight...im pretty sure when you sign up to be a "freedom fighter" you understand torture is a possibility of that line of work...some of you speak of civil liberties but it seems to me that should be awared to the civil, not those looking to destroy everything about this great country. If you dont like the game, dont become a player.

ha didnt know this poll would start all this

HaHa! These things have a way of going all over the place.

[Guest JLowe]

Whatever it takes to ensure our freedoms. Its easy to say that we are a more advanced and civil nation, we aren't. We as a nation are young, but extremely influential and powerful (1 of 2 true superpowers left). Our men and women fighting a war we did not start are not given any quarter and are tortured beyond anything that we ever do to them. Our torture is mostly psychological, theirs is more physical i.e...rape (both men and women), body part removal, killing, so on and so forth. We do not burn the bodies in the streets like they do and then put them up for display after dragging them through the streets. You can not fight animals with kid gloves and high ideas, you have to fight them like animals.

[Punisher84]

Whatever it takes to ensure our freedoms. Its easy to say that we are a more advanced and civil nation, we aren't. We as a nation are young, but extremely influential and powerful (1 of 2 true superpowers left). Our men and women fighting a war we did not start are not given any quarter and are tortured beyond anything that we ever do to them. Our torture is mostly psychological, theirs is more physical i.e...rape (both men and women), body part removal, killing, so on and so forth. We do not burn the bodies in the streets like they do and then put them up for display after dragging them through the streets. You can not fight animals with kid gloves and high ideas, you have to fight them like animals.

Amen brother. Maybe Kevin can have a "hug a terrorist" day.

[E4 No More]

War is uncivilized by its nature. I get tired of liberals trying to make it civilized, and then wonder why we lose. Perhaps it is they that we should send into combat first.