AR max range?

[Fadex]

Ok...first off I have to admit that my knowledge of AR's and black rifle's is very limited.

With that out of the way, what is the maximum range of an AR? More specifically a Bushmaster M4A3 18" barrell? No mods, just out of the box.

I have always wanted a very accurate, long range rifle again, like a Remington 700, or M1A, in .308 but that's probably not gonna happen for a while. (House, wedding, new wife, etc). Although I would find some irony in buying one with part of my "stimulus" money. ha.

What kind of mods can you recommend to increase range and accuracy? Or would I be better served just saving up for the Remmy or M1A?

All opinions welcome!!

[nightrunner]

for punching paper, 600yards

for something more threatening, about 300yards.

a scope will help extend its range

[TNRobocop]

There are many factors to consider.

With the right load (68gr-75gr), good optic (10x or better), free float barrel (YHM or similar), and a bipod/solid rest, figure on 600-700 yards practical precision accuracy. At that range MOA is 6-7 inches, which is a good MOP (minute of person) accuracy for center mass hits.

It is what we run our designated marksman through on the range and they ususally are not setup with all the goodies a civilian rifle has. This is IIRC what the US Army Designated Marksman Course does.

My ANG unit for example uses ACOG TA-01NSN scopes on our standard 14.5 inch M-4's with no mods and we qualify out to 600 yards on that setup alone.

[Guest Crunchman]

With my stock S&W MP15A (16 in. barrel) and a fair quality holo sight, I can regularly bust clay birds at 200 yds. When I mount a 3x9 Leupold I can hold a 4 to 6 inch 5 shot group at 400 yds. My 20 in. heavy barreled Bushy (free float, bull barrel, adj. trigger, 4x16 scope) shrinks the 400 yd. groups to 2 or 3 inches, better on the days when I really do my part.

[Guest redbarron06]

for punching paper, 600yards

for something more threatening, about 300yards.

a scope will help extend its range

Almost agree with this. With a scope, you can increase the accuricy of the shooter but not the weapon at the longer distances but it does increase the odds of delivering a hit on a target. The military considers the max effective range as the the greatest range that a soldier can expect a hit. That being said there are 2 max effective ranges for the M-16. Point (a single person) and area (group of people or larger target like a truck) For a point target it is 550 meters and area it is 800. This is for a standard M-16A2 with a 20inch barrel. From an M-4 (14.5 inch barrel it is 500/600. (Your rifle is going to be somewhere in the middle with iron sights.) So with a shorter barrel you are going to have reduced accuricy and lower bullet speeds. reducing max effective range but can couter some of that with magnified optics.

Now even though you may be able to hit the target at a farther distance the affect on the target of the round is greatly redused because the 5.56 round relies on fragmentation. Out past these ranges it is unreliable at best. It might be good for paper but not for people becuase it simply does not have the energy past a certain point. Barrel length effect speed so it also effects this too.

If you want to shoot 800 yard bulls eyes an AR paltform is capable and much less expensive to shoot than say a Model 700 in 308. If you want to shoot deer (or people for that matter)at 800 yards anything in 5.56 is not what you need to be looking at. Now if you just like the AR feel but want a bigger caliber you can look into an AR10 (308) or any of the other chamberings that they make these days.

[Guest Mugster]

Almost agree with this. With a scope, you can increase the accuricy of the shooter but not the weapon at the longer distances but it does increase the odds of delivering a hit on a target. The military considers the max effective range as the the greatest range that a soldier can expect a hit. That being said there are 2 max effective ranges for the M-16. Point (a single person) and area (group of people or larger target like a truck) For a point target it is 550 meters and area it is 800. This is for a standard M-16A2 with a 20inch barrel. From an M-4 (14.5 inch barrel it is 500/600. (Your rifle is going to be somewhere in the middle with iron sights.) So with a shorter barrel you are going to have reduced accuricy and lower bullet speeds. reducing max effective range but can couter some of that with magnified optics.

Now even though you may be able to hit the target at a farther distance the affect on the target of the round is greatly redused because the 5.56 round relies on fragmentation. Out past these ranges it is unreliable at best. It might be good for paper but not for people becuase it simply does not have the energy past a certain point. Barrel length effect speed so it also effects this too.

If you want to shoot 800 yard bulls eyes an AR paltform is capable and much less expensive to shoot than say a Model 700 in 308. If you want to shoot deer (or people for that matter)at 800 yards anything in 5.56 is not what you need to be looking at. Now if you just like the AR feel but want a bigger caliber you can look into an AR10 (308) or any of the other chamberings that they make these days.

Agree with both of these guys. While the military does shoot them to 600, they are shooting shotgun patterns out at that distance, which might be useful for them but is uninteresting to me.

The best stuff you can buy for punching paper is a scope in the 4-12 or 6-16 range, a handloading setup, and a good rest system. With good handloads you can pop clay pidgeons out to 350ish yards pretty reliable on a fairly calm day with a .223.

The little .22 bullet gives it up to the wind pretty quick out past 300-350 and the drop gets pretty bad. 300-350 is about your bang for the buck long range distance. Out past that, you should probably use both better optics than your probably willing to buy and a heavier caliber.

The ar10's aren't much more accurate than the .223's, but the bullets do fight the wind a little better.

[jughead]

when i was doing a lot of practicing i could hit beer cans 3 or 4 out of 5 at 300 yrds with a 1.5 scope. that was 5/6 years ago dont know if I can do it now or not. 223 in steyr-aug

[DaveTN]

Or would I be better served just saving up for the Remmy or M1A?

All opinions welcome!!

You need them all; there just is no way around it.

I have a Remington 700 VLS .308 (Heavy Barrel), a DPMS .308 Panther and a Garand (among others). I don’t have a .223 right now, but I‘ve been looking for a cheap paper puncher.

We all have tried to put together the perfect all-in-one rifle. It doesn’t work. You have to have them all.

And unless I go to Illinois I don’t have anywhere that I can shoot past 300 meters anyway.

[Fadex]

I'm afraid you are right Dave. I have always been more of an accuracy person...old habits die hard. I would rather shoot beer cans at 500 yards for fun than a shotgun pattern on any day. Looks like there may be another rifle or two in the safe that I forgot to tell my future wife about...uhum..."big safe hun, I musta forgot about that one".

I have access to a great place where I could probably shoot 2000+ yards (if I was capable).

So, roughly 1k for the rifle and about 4-500 for optics? I have also looked at several of the Tikka rifles. I'm not familiar with them but they read well. Any manufacturers to avoid?

[Guest redbarron06]

So, roughly 1k for the rifle and about 4-500 for optics? I have also looked at several of the Tikka rifles. I'm not familiar with them but they read well. Any manufacturers to avoid?

Well if you are looking for an ACOG then 7-800 depending on the model is more in the ball park. Dont pay any attention to the prices on the Trijicon web site they list mine at 1500 but I was able to find it for right about 1K.

It is hard to see in the pic but it has the doctor optic MRD on top.

[DaveTN]

I have access to a great place where I could probably shoot 2000+ yards (if I was capable).

Then I would invest in top of the line equipment from the start, if at all possible. You have to remember that most of what you are reading is information from guys shooting at 100 yards. Most any decent rifle can do that; many guys can shoot good groups at 100 with iron sights.

So, roughly 1k for the rifle and about 4-500 for optics? I have also looked at several of the Tikka rifles. I'm not familiar with them but they read well. Any manufacturers to avoid?

For years everything has been compared to the Remington 700. In the past few years it has become a battle between Remington and Savage. I have never owned a savage but they have a following that feels they are as good as the 700. As far as the Tikka, I don’t buy foreign guns; never have unless they are military collectables.

You might get optics that would perform well at 1000 yards for $500 but you would have to find a deal. I saved over $100 on one of my Leupold scopes at Midway just by having a C&R. I’m one of those that believe you might be able to skimp a little on the rifle, but not on the optics.

[DMark]

..... While the military does shoot them to 600, they are shooting shotgun patterns out at that distance....

I don't think the Army Marksmanship Unit would consider 10 Ring hits at 600 yards using iron sights a shotgun pattern.

[Guest redbarron06]

I don't think the Army Marksmanship Unit would consider 10 Ring hits at 600 yards using iron sights a shotgun pattern.

Those guys are awersome but I also dont think they are shooting 18 inch off the shelf bushmasters either.

[DMark]

Those guys are awersome but I also dont think they are shooting 18 inch off the shelf bushmasters either.

True.

Yet I had to post a pic of the AMU guys since they have cleaned my clock a number of times at the 600 line.

But the point can be made that an AR is really easy to make accurate when compared to other service rifles. A good trigger and a good barrel with a float tube and you're in the game.

[Guest Mugster]

True.

Yet I had to post a pic of the AMU guys since they have cleaned my clock a number of times at the 600 line.

But the point can be made that an AR is really easy to make accurate when compared to other service rifles. A good trigger and a good barrel with a float tube and you're in the game.

Its not so much the ar itself. I assume they only recruit the best natural shots they can find out of a fairly large population. Most of us have to get by with lesser ability. Although using custom rifles would cheating at a "service rifle competition" in my mind. They should check them out of the armory, like any other GI would.

The 600 yard X is 12" in diameter? 2 MOA? A "good" shot only drops maybe what, 3-4 out of that ring with 20 rounds in a competition? With a sandbagged 7mm or .300 magnum equipped with a heavy barrel, even off the shelf, and a decent 16-20x scope...a $1200 total rig no custom anything. I would think a guy of average ability could hold every shot in the circle. No sling or leather jacket required. I would think a "good" shot could push 1 MOA with handloads tuned to the rifle. Shrug.

[Guest Mugster]

double post.

[Guest Mugster]

Then I would invest in top of the line equipment from the start, if at all possible. You have to remember that most of what you are reading is information from guys shooting at 100 yards. Most any decent rifle can do that; many guys can shoot good groups at 100 with iron sights.

For years everything has been compared to the Remington 700. In the past few years it has become a battle between Remington and Savage. I have never owned a savage but they have a following that feels they are as good as the 700. As far as the Tikka, I don’t buy foreign guns; never have unless they are military collectables.

You might get optics that would perform well at 1000 yards for $500 but you would have to find a deal. I saved over $100 on one of my Leupold scopes at Midway just by having a C&R. I’m one of those that believe you might be able to skimp a little on the rifle, but not on the optics.

I think the money into optics thing was true in about 1950-1960. I have a buddy that's a pretty good shot and he uses only cheap BSA optics. I'm amazed at how well they do for $100.

I do think some optics are better than others. I don't know that it really helps you shoot much better on a sunny day.

I think if your going to Africa on a once in a lifetime trip to hunt...you don't take no BSA. Running down to a range close by, I'm not so sure it matters much.

I will also say the nikon 6-18 buckmaster is a darn nice scope for $300ish.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The 600 yard X is 12" in diameter? 2 MOA? A "good" shot only drops maybe what, 3-4 out of that ring with 20 rounds in a competition?

Mug,

A 600 yard National Match target is 1 moa. The X-ring is 6 inches. The ten ring is 12 inches. I have shot several 199-10 through 14 X scores at 600 yards with a Service Rifle. There is a fellow by the name of Hoover, from IN. that shot with the AMU whom holds the unofficial record at 1K, 200-8X AR Service Rifle. The picture that is referenced above is from Camp Perry. The AMU getting ready for "Rattle Battle". Which is an Infantry Trophy Match during the CMP matches. The AMU holds the record for that as well.

There is really not all that much that you have to do to your rifle to make it shoot well at 600 yards.

First, you need an 8 twist barrel. (with a Wylde chamber)

Second, free float the handguard so the sling will not pull the barrel.

Third, you will need a good two-stage trigger, set at 4.5 lbs over all (generally set 3.5 on the first stage, 1.0 on the second).

Fourth, change out your sights, front sight needs to be a NM sight, which are easy to get. Rear sight needs a hood in it with apatures that can be changed out. Rear sight should be pinned.

Fifth, practice and shoot matches. (There is a 3X600 this comming sunday at Oak Ridge)

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The 600 yard X is 12" in diameter? 2 MOA? A "good" shot only drops maybe what, 3-4 out of that ring with 20 rounds in a competition? With a sandbagged 7mm or .300 magnum equipped with a heavy barrel, even off the shelf, and a decent 16-20x scope...a $1200 total rig no custom anything. I would think a guy of average ability could hold every shot in the circle. No sling or leather jacket required. I would think a "good" shot could push 1 MOA with handloads tuned to the rifle. Shrug.

If you shot a rifle from the sandbag, you would be considered shooting "F-Class". F-Class shooters shoot 1/2 moa targets. In other words, 3" X-Ring at 600 yards. Come on out and give it a try!

[Guest Mugster]

Mug,

A 600 yard National Match target is 1 moa. The X-ring is 6 inches. The ten ring is 12 inches. I have shot several 199-10 through 14 X scores at 600 yards with a Service Rifle. There is a fellow by the name of Hoover, from IN. that shot with the AMU whom holds the unofficial record at 1K, 200-8X AR Service Rifle. The picture that is referenced above is from Camp Perry. The AMU getting ready for "Rattle Battle". Which is an Infantry Trophy Match during the CMP matches. The AMU holds the record for that as well.

There is really not all that much that you have to do to your rifle to make it shoot well at 600 yards.

First, you need an 8 twist barrel. (with a Wylde chamber)

Second, free float the handguard so the sling will not pull the barrel.

Third, you will need a good two-stage trigger, set at 4.5 lbs over all (generally set 3.5 on the first stage, 1.0 on the second).

Fourth, change out your sights, front sight needs to be a NM sight, which are easy to get. Rear sight needs a hood in it with apatures that can be changed out. Rear sight should be pinned.

Fifth, practice and shoot matches. (There is a 3X600 this comming sunday at Oak Ridge)

Sounds like a good hobby, but, my interest is minimal. I might go that far to race a dirtbike but not shoot.

Yeah, here's the target sizes.

NRA HighPower Rules

[DaveTN]

I don't think the Army Marksmanship Unit would consider 10 Ring hits at 600 yards using iron sights a shotgun pattern.

Everything is relative; how big is the 10 ring?

But the point can be made that an AR is really easy to make accurate when compared to other service rifles. A good trigger and a good barrel with a float tube and you're in the game.

Are you in the same game as a .30 cal Bolt Action bench rest shooter?

I’m not that great of a shot, but I think someone investing in a .223 AR and thinking they can shoot the group of a .30 cal bolt is just going to get their feeling hurt; don’t you?

I’m not arguing because I have not tried it. But I’ve not seen the AR guys shooting the groups of the bolt guns even at 300 yards, let alone 600.

I’ve never seen an AR group at 600 yards. What do they look like? We didn’t shoot that far in the Navy (Well we did but it with 20MM or 3†50’s ) My BIL said they shot M16’s 600 yards in the Marines, but he said the targets were the size of a bus.

Mugster, we haven’t had our ammo shoot off yet.

[Guest Mugster]

Everything is relative; how big is the 10 ring?

Are you in the same game as a .30 cal Bolt Action bench rest shooter?

I’m not that great of a shot, but I think someone investing in a .223 AR and thinking they can shoot the group of a .30 cal bolt is just going to get their feeling hurt; don’t you?

I’m not arguing because I have not tried it. But I’ve not seen the AR guys shooting the groups of the bolt guns even at 300 yards, let alone 600.

I’ve never seen an AR group at 600 yards. What do they look like? We didn’t shoot that far in the Navy (Well we did but it with 20MM or 3†50’s ) My BIL said they shot M16’s 600 yards in the Marines, but he said the targets were the size of a bus.

Mugster, we haven’t had our ammo shoot off yet.

I'm ready and I have a new rig too. Got a 20" remington R-25 in .308 with that aforementioned nikon 6-18 on it.

I got a few 130gr FBHP's left from deer season...now that's a cheap .308 reload. I haven't been able to score any .308 federal factory but I've been watching walmart.

I also have some bargain basement mystery 168's from midway's blem sale. But they ain't loaded.

You available during the week? Shoot me a PM.

[DaveTN]

First, you need an 8 twist barrel. (with a Wylde chamber)

Second, free float the handguard so the sling will not pull the barrel.

Third, you will need a good two-stage trigger, set at 4.5 lbs over all (generally set 3.5 on the first stage, 1.0 on the second).

Fourth, change out your sights, front sight needs to be a NM sight, which are easy to get. Rear sight needs a hood in it with apatures that can be changed out. Rear sight should be pinned.

Fifth, practice and shoot matches. (There is a 3X600 this comming sunday at Oak Ridge)

Sixth, you need to be in your 20’s or 30’s.

I couldn’t see a 6†circle at 600 yards with open sights.

[DaveTN]

I'm ready and I have a new rig too. Got a 20" remington R-25 in .308 with that aforementioned nikon 6-18 on it.

Great.

Don’t you also have the same DPMS .308 Panther I have?

PM sent.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Hand over eyes! I give up!