Carry in WMA's bill HB 0961

[JayC]

Yea, I'd chip in a few bucks myself. Not being allowed to carry in the national forest is just so, so wrong.

National Forest was covered in the parks bill, and should be legal to carry in today.

You should check with a Ranger to verify there are not federal regulations or laws prohibiting carry, if not then you're good to go under state law now.

[victorcharlie]

Sorry Jay, but the wma was stripped out of the parks bill and is now a seperate bill. You may want to have another look at the bill.

[victorcharlie]

The House vote on this bill today. Passed H., as am., Ayes 89, Nays 3 I haven't seen an update on the senate.

[GKar]

As of this afternoon, it is showing as on the agenda for 6/17 in the Senate Finance, Ways and Means comittee...which is not scheduled to meet on 6/17, or any other date this session.

Edited June 17, 2009 by GKar

[JayC]

Sorry Jay, but the wma was stripped out of the parks bill and is now a seperate bill. You may want to have another look at the bill.

Yes if you look at my other posts I note that WMAs are in another bill, but what does that have to do with National Forests? Which are covered under the now law parks bill?

[GKar]

For those of us in the Eastern end of the state, it is very significant - the vast, vast majority of Cherokee NF is also WMA, and thus remains closed to legal carry until the WMA bill passes.

[oldogy]

For those of us in the Eastern end of the state, it is very significant - the vast, vast majority of Cherokee NF is also WMA, and thus remains closed to legal carry until the WMA bill passes.

Exactly:screwy:

oldogy

[JayC]

For those of us in the Eastern end of the state, it is very significant - the vast, vast majority of Cherokee NF is also WMA, and thus remains closed to legal carry until the WMA bill passes.

I'm not sure that is the case.... It would seem that it is a federal national forest and therefore the way the bill is currently worded it's now legal to carry in the NF unless there is a federal regulation/law prohibiting carry.

Keep in mind the way the law was worded... Any of the listed locations including National Forests and Recreational areas (Cherokee and LBL for example) are now legal to carry in unless there is federal law prohibiting carry. You'll note no where in the passed law does it say unless they're also a WMA, or anything about WMAs (all language touching on WMAs was removed by Senate Amendment).

I just got off the phone with the Law Enforcement office of LBL and there is a Forest Supervisor letter prohibiting carry according to the officer answering the phone, I'm waiting for a call back from the Cheif of Law Enforcement to get a copy of the letter.

I've also got a phone call into Cherooke to see if there is any such letter or regulation from them. The officer I spoke with was under the impression the ban on concealed carry was controlled by the TWRA not by Federal regulation or law, but we'll see when he calls me back.

[GKar]

My understanding mirrors your last paragraph - the WMA restriction comes from and is enforced by TWRA, not the NFS. Any part of Cherokee NF that is not WMA would be open to carry under the new law - but I'm not sure that there is very much, if any, of the forest that's not WMA. I know virtually all of it up here in the Holston Mtn area is WMA.

The good news - its on the Senate FWM agenda (along with 66 other items) for today, and FWM is scheduled to meet at 10am. Assuming passage in FWM (surely!!!), it should be sent to the Senate Floor for the 1pm floor sesson today - unless it has to make a stop in the Calendar committee first. If they proceed like the House did yesterday, they can convene Calendar immediately after FWM, sort what goes to consent calendar and what doesn't in what sounds like an auction session, then get on with the floor session.

Really hope they get this last piece done - we do a lot of hiking, camping and geocaching around Holston Mtn, and the black bear and feral dog activity has been particularly abundant of late.

Edited June 18, 2009 by GKar

[JayC]

My understanding mirrors your last paragraph - the WMA restriction comes from and is enforced by TWRA, not the NFS. Any part of Cherokee NF that is not WMA would be open to carry under the new law - but I'm not sure that there is very much, if any, of the forest that's not WMA. I know virtually all of it up here in the Holston Mtn area is WMA.

The good news - its on the Senate FWM agenda (along with 66 other items) for today, and FWM is scheduled to meet at 10am. Assuming passage in FWM (surely!!!), it should be sent to the Senate Floor for the 1pm floor sesson today - unless it has to make a stop in the Calendar committee first. If they proceed like the House did yesterday, they can convene Calendar immediately after FWM, sort what goes to consent calendar and what doesn't in what sounds like an auction session, then get on with the floor session.

Really hope they get this last piece done - we do a lot of hiking, camping and geocaching around Holston Mtn, and the black bear and feral dog activity has been particularly abundant of late.

Passage of the WMA bill will not open carry in the LBL if the general order letter read to me over the phone is truly correct... We're going to need an amendment to the bill to open up LBL, again still waiting on the Cherooke NF LEO to call me back...

It's not because it's a WMA that is prohibiting carry at LBL, it's because of a general order with the power of regulation prohibiting the carrying of firearms without a valid permit (TN hunting license)... So passing the WMA bill will not fix that problem.

[Fallguy]

Passage of the WMA bill will not open carry in the LBL if the general order letter read to me over the phone is truly correct... We're going to need an amendment to the bill to open up LBL, again still waiting on the Cherooke NF LEO to call me back...

I believe GKar and a couple of others are more concerned with Cherokee NF and the fact that a large part of the forest is a state WMA also, as opposed to anything to do with LBL.

Also when you say "need an amendment to the bill to open up LBL" you mean on a Federal level bill, not a state level bill, right? Not sure how a state legislature could override a directive from a federal manager on federal lands.

It's not because it's a WMA that is prohibiting carry at LBL, it's because of a general order with the power of regulation prohibiting the carrying of firearms without a valid permit (TN hunting license)... So passing the WMA bill will not fix that problem.

Again I think you're mixing up you talking about LBL and them Cherokee NF. I believe it was another thread where someone was talking about LBL.

[GKar]

Fallguy is correct.

From TWRA's website FAQ section:

With a handgun carry permit, can a person legally carry a weapon on a WMA at all times?

No. However, handguns can be possessed when they are legal for hunting.

So, HB 0961 is the integral piece of the puzzle to eliminating this prohibition, since it specifically targets WMAs.

[Fallguy]

Any word from the Senate FWM committee on the bill?

[Fallguy]

Discussing it now!!

[Fallguy]

PASSES in Senate FWM committee 10-0

Sent to the Calendar Committee

[JayC]

I was mentioning both LBL and Cherokee because those are the 2 large Forest Service managed sites in the state (not sure if we have any others). Both are listed as WMAs by the TWRA so both are in similar boats.

As for an amendment, no I mean a state bill needs to be amended to fix the problem with the LBL general order, the issue is in the wording in the current general order, which requires you to have a special use permit to carry any firearm on LBL land, in this case the special use permit is a TN hunting license... If we passed an amendment that having a valid HCP was a type of hunting license or in some type of combination with another type of hunting license we are allowed to carry then under current LBL General order it appears we would be allowed to carry.

Passing the WMA carry bill will NOT open LBL up to carry unless we add special language to have HCP reconized by the TWRA in some manner.

I'm still waiting to hear back from the Forest Service on Cherokee NF to see if they have any regulations barring concealed carry.

Now as for areas listed in the parks bill that also happen to be WMAs, I have not found a state law which prohibits carrying handguns on WMAs only a TWRA regulation, if somebody is aware of a state law prohibiting carry in WMAs then please post a link.

If there is no law stating otherwise, then state law overrides TWRA regulation. The state law makes no exception for where a state forest is a WMA or not so therefore state law says HCP holders may carry and it's my understanding the TWRA can not block that by regulation.

I believe GKar and a couple of others are more concerned with Cherokee NF and the fact that a large part of the forest is a state WMA also, as opposed to anything to do with LBL.

Also when you say "need an amendment to the bill to open up LBL" you mean on a Federal level bill, not a state level bill, right? Not sure how a state legislature could override a directive from a federal manager on federal lands.

Again I think you're mixing up you talking about LBL and them Cherokee NF. I believe it was another thread where someone was talking about LBL.

[Fallguy]

Now as for areas listed in the parks bill that also happen to be WMAs, I have not found a state law which prohibits carrying handguns on WMAs only a TWRA regulation, if somebody is aware of a state law prohibiting carry in WMAs then please post a link.

70-4-117 Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty.

(a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections ( and ©.

Section 1 of HB0961 would specifically allow those with a HCP to carry year round in WMAs and the other places mentioned in 70-4-117

Section 2 allows those with a HCP also carry in National Forest managed by the state and to the extent as allowed by federal law.

So even if this passes it seems whatever on a Federal Level that is preventing carry in LBL would have to be dealt with.

[Fallguy]

Bill status page just updated!!!

The bill has passed the Senate 28-0

Now just needs to be signed by both speakers and sent to the Governor.

Will become effective immediately upon his signature.

[Guest Patty]

If you have WMA Permit to hunt with, then you are to follow all WMA rules for each WMA that you enter, and support them. There are different rules that apply to different WMA's. Do not think you can over ride the WMA's rules, because as a person who has a permit to carry a handgun is subjected to these rule's as well as the people who are just hunting. Even if the laws change, up in Nashville concerning your places to carry, you are still bound by the TWRA rules. NO exceptions.

I never did understand why I would want to carry a handgun while I was hunting with a rifle or a shotgun.

[victorcharlie]

IMO, carry in the Cherokee isn't about hunting as there are only a few days that big game hunting is allowed. I backpack and would like to provide for my family's security while enjoying the forest.

[Fallguy]

If you have WMA Permit to hunt with, then you are to follow all WMA rules for each WMA that you enter, and support them. There are different rules that apply to different WMA's. Do not think you can over ride the WMA's rules, because as a person who has a permit to carry a handgun is subjected to these rule's as well as the people who are just hunting. Even if the laws change, up in Nashville concerning your places to carry, you are still bound by the TWRA rules. NO exceptions.

I never did understand why I would want to carry a handgun while I was hunting with a rifle or a shotgun.

I believe a state law trumps a TWRA regulation.

[Guest Patty]

Nope, you have to follow all rules. There is not any Trump cards in the deck of rules that you agreed to when you committed to follow any and all legal postings and written rules. And hunting seasons are almost year round in most WMA's if you like hunting. Thats what them WMA's are for.

[Fallguy]

Nope, you have to follow all rules. There is not any Trump cards in the deck of rules that you agreed to when you committed to follow any and all legal postings and written rules. And hunting seasons are almost year round in most WMA's if you like hunting. Thats what them WMA's are for.

What set of rules am I agreeing to by just going to a WMA?

I don't hunt (don't have a problem with it though) I'm not going to a WMA to hunt.

Maybe there is another reason I am at the WMA.

I believe this bill when/if it becomes law will allow me to be armed if I am simply just visiting a WMA.

[JayC]

If you have WMA Permit to hunt with, then you are to follow all WMA rules for each WMA that you enter, and support them. There are different rules that apply to different WMA's. Do not think you can over ride the WMA's rules, because as a person who has a permit to carry a handgun is subjected to these rule's as well as the people who are just hunting. Even if the laws change, up in Nashville concerning your places to carry, you are still bound by the TWRA rules. NO exceptions.

I never did understand why I would want to carry a handgun while I was hunting with a rifle or a shotgun.

I'm sorry but that is just not correct... TWRA may only make regulations which do not violate state law. If HB0961 becomes law, then it states the following:

Notwithstanding subsection (a), a person with a handgun carry permit pursuant to § 39-17-1351 may possess a handgun the entire year while on the premises of any refuge, public hunting area, wildlife management area or, to the extent permitted by federal law, national forest land maintained by the state. Nothing in this subsection (d) shall authorize a person to use any handgun to hunt unless such person is in full

compliance with all wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

That would override any TWRA regulation prohibiting HCP holders from carrying on state owned WMAs...

The question becomes if there is a way to get around the current general order that prohibits carry in LBL by changing state law, and if there are any such federal regulations for Cherokee NF which would limit HCP carry. Once HB0961 becomes law all the other WMAs will be free to carry in, unless there is something I'm missing in the proposed law.

[Guest Fenris]

I never did understand why I would want to carry a handgun while I was hunting with a rifle or a shotgun.

I can think of two scenarios. When I hunt WMA's I hunt the Percy Priest WMA at the end of Mt. View Road.

1) I have seen deer tracks there and they are all small. The deer are wily and I have never seen one. If it were legal with this bill (I don't know if it is, I would definitely check before I did this) but it would be nice to squirrel hunt with my .22 and have my .357 revolver on my hip in case I did see a deer.

2) As you cross the barricade at the end of Mt. View Road you can keep walking down the old road and see some lovely gang tags that change from visit to visit. I have never seen anyone in those areas, but if I'm going in that situation, I'll take all the bullets I can fire without reloading, thank you.