Carry in WMA's bill HB 0961

[Fallguy]

VC...I think everyone is right...there is not direct Federal Law or Federal Regulation that prohibits carry in a National Forest...and now no TN state law.

The only thing is local rangers can issue "special orders" as has been said and some have done that to prohibit carry.

Hope you hear back from the soon.

[victorcharlie]

So, special orders can circumvent law? That's pretty broad authority IMO. Under who's authority do they assume this power?

[Fallguy]

I can't remember if it was in this thread or another, but I posted the relevant CFR (Code of Federal Regulations). So a special order doesn't circumvent the law, they are allowed by law.

It gives reasons that they can issue special orders, that apply to whatever lands are under their control...so lets say there is a regional supervisor, he could issue one that would effect what ever forests, etc...that he was responsable for.

Anyway...one of the reasons they can issue a special order is for "public safety". To be honest I think the intention of that code was like to allow a ranger to close a part of the forest to the public if there had been trouble with animals there, flooding etc..... but some have used it to issue a general prohobition on handgun carry.

I don't think it is right, but it is the way it is in some places.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Fallguy

[victorcharlie]

It sure sounds like it's unconstitutional to me, but unfortunately I lack the legal mind and the funds required to push this through the courts. We complain about activist judges legislating from the bench and then give alphabet agencies the authority that has been delegated to the legislature. IMO, it's like a fourth branch of government that assumes the powers of the other three branches.

[JayC]

The general order at LBL uses the permit language under Federal law to close the park to anybody with a firearm unless they are in possession of a TN Hunting permit and meet all the requirements of said permit.

They are not using the public safety clause, but something to do with protecting wildlife clause to require a permit.

It appears to be above board as far as Federal law goes... And it's my understanding the language was required by the TWRA as part of the WMA funding LBL gets from their department. Although that was relayed to me by a Ranger/LEO at LBL and not provided in a document.

In theory the TWRA could get that language removed pretty quick if they wanted to.

[GKar]

Have tried multiple times to get in touch with anyone in Cherokee Natl Forest law enforcement, both at the Cleveland office and the local Watauga District office. Have left a message stating my reason for calling and asking for a return call to my cell with at least 4 different people, and as of yet...no ringy-dingy. I'm starting to think they don't wanna talk about it....

[Fallguy]

Probably not going to give an official answer until they either figure out a way around it, or that they can't get around it.

If they ever give one that is....

[steamnsteel]

I say lets just leave it and see how it pans out. Too many inquires may lead to the wrong action being taken. Just my two cents.

[oldogy]

I say lets just leave it and see how it pans out. Too many inquires may lead to the wrong action being taken. Just my two cents.

I agree with that approach. If some person "in charge" thinks they can write some obscure rule to circumvent the law it would be time for a letter writing blitz demanding "WHY" Right now I do believe the law is on our side.

oldogy

[Fallguy]

I say lets just leave it and see how it pans out. Too many inquires may lead to the wrong action being taken. Just my two cents.

I agree with that approach. If some person "in charge" thinks they can write some obscure rule to circumvent the law it would be time for a letter writing blitz demanding "WHY" Right now I do believe the law is on our side.

oldogy

I tend to agree...

[victorcharlie]

I haven't heard a thing from my guy either. I have a feeling the powers to be are putting there heads together.

[JayC]

Have tried multiple times to get in touch with anyone in Cherokee Natl Forest law enforcement, both at the Cleveland office and the local Watauga District office. Have left a message stating my reason for calling and asking for a return call to my cell with at least 4 different people, and as of yet...no ringy-dingy. I'm starting to think they don't wanna talk about it....

Welcome to my world... I've been trying to get an official answer and copy of supposed General Order prohibiting carry for almost a month now. Maybe if enough of us call and bug them they'll get their act together.

[Guest 270win]

I am getting ready to go over to Shelby Forest to get a permit so I can squirrel hunt this fall and possibly deer hunt with a shotgun. I'd like to do some scouting. I'm also going to do some scouting over at Ghost/Wolf River WMA in Fayette County close to LaGrange to do some squirrel hunting out there. It will be nice to carry more than a 22LR handgun when scouting in Fayette County (I have the 136 dollar hunting license and have been able to claim coyote or beaver hunting). Shelby Forest has been closed to all firearms EXCEPT during the fall during squirrel, turkey, duck, and deer seasons, and only shotguns with non toxic, so you couldn't carry a 22LR handgun when scouting and claim to be coyote/beaver hunting.....be nice to now be able to carry my Glock 19 openly!

[victorcharlie]

I have received a response via email from my leo acquaintance from the Cherokee National forest. Handgun carry is a go in the Cherokee. You may not carry in forest service (federal)buildings, but carry permit holders are allowed to carry in the forest. As far as the bill to carry a loaded long gun, his reply states there is no federal law to prevent it either. He indicated he also checked with the TWRA as well. I have responded to him and asked his permission to post the text of his email on this forum and out of courtesy to him I will wait on his reply before posting the complete text of his reply. So, the state district attorneys office says it's okay, and now the feds say it's okay.

[Fallguy]

Good deal...

[oldogy]

I have received a response via email from my leo acquaintance from the Cherokee National forest. Handgun carry is a go in the Cherokee. You may not carry in forest service (federal)buildings, but carry permit holders are allowed to carry in the forest. As far as the bill to carry a loaded long gun, his reply states there is no federal law to prevent it either. He indicated he also checked with the TWRA as well. I have responded to him and asked his permission to post the text of his email on this forum and out of courtesy to him I will wait on his reply before posting the complete text of his reply. So, the state district attorneys office says it's okay, and now the feds say it's okay.

Great! A copy of his reply will go in the Jeep.

oldogy

[BBill_TN]

Great news. Thanks for following up on this guys.

[victorcharlie]

Here is the response, both of the request and reply. It is a go, I have spoke with TWRA supervisors, and reviewed what federal law we have and there are no prohibitions on the forest. There are prohibitions in our buildings just like Post Offices and other federal buildings. But the forest is open to concealed carry permit holders. I haven't found anything again on the ammo in the gun being against federal law either. I will continue searching and will advise if I find anything that contradicts the state law that pertains to National Forest Lands, Again only the Federal Buildings are people prohibited to carry in. I appreciate you looking into this for me. Is it okay to post this on the Tennessee gun owner’s forum and a couple of other outdoor forums that I read and post on? Again, thanks for the effort, it’s much appreciated. Yea thats fine just dont reference my name, In order for us to be part of any interview/media type forum it has to go through our Public Affairs Officer. If you want, I can get you in touch with him that way you could reference the Forest Service. So, should I, or rather, one of the moderators, ask for the contact for the public affairs officer? I respect this mans candor and will not compromise on his request, but I do understand we all would like an offical response. How should I proceed with this?

[victorcharlie]

Any idea why my paragraphs don't format correctly? Also, I can't get colors to change and that makes the send/receive of the body hard to follow. I apologize for the formatting but for the life of me can't figure out how to correct it.

[Guest tonybon]

im going camping at big south fork the first of sept. so Im good to go execpt inside the buildings right ? my camp site, rv, pool, and the trails are carry friendly? or should i call ahead to make sure we are all on the same page?

[BBill_TN]

Big South Fork is a National River and Recreation Area......so I am not sure. Maybe Fallguy or someone else here knows more.

[Fallguy]

im going camping at big south fork the first of sept. so Im good to go execpt inside the buildings right ? my camp site, rv, pool, and the trails are carry friendly? or should i call ahead to make sure we are all on the same page?

It appears by their website Big South Fork National River & Recreation Area - Big South Fork National River & Recreation Area (U.S. National Park Service) that Big South Fork is under the control of the Naitional Park Service.

Nationaly Park carry will not be legal until sometime in Feb of 2010.

So No...I don't think carry would not be legal there as of this weekend.

[ttocswob]

BSF is under the National Park Service, so no carry until the new law takes effect...but is one of a few NP's legislated to allow hunting, FWIW.

In practice, I've seen a lot more guns than I have rangers at BSF.

From the BSF website:

No Hunting/Safety Zones:

Hunting is permitted anywhere within the Big South Fork except for those areas designated as safety zones. These safety zones generally are located around areas of concentrated visitor use such as campgrounds and river access points. Download a PDF map of the Big South Fork Safety Zones. (1,600 kb)

Firearms:

You may not possess a loaded firearm in or on a motor vehicle. A firearm is considered loaded if there are rounds in the chamber or magazine, a muzzleloader is unloaded if there is no cap on the nipple or powder in the priming pan. (36 C.F.R. 2.4 () You may not possess a loaded firearm in a boat or vessel except when that boat or vessel is being used as a shooting platform in accordance with State and Federal law. You may only load your firearm after the motor has been shut off and all forward motion due to that motor has stopped. (36 C.F.R. 2.4() Firearms may be transported in or on a motor vehicle, boat or horse but they must be rendered temporarily inoperable, or packed, stored or cased in a manner that prevents their ready use. (36 C.F.R. 2.4 (a)(3)) This law can be satisfied several ways, a cased unloaded gun satisfies the requirements of this law. An unloaded gun with a trigger lock installed satisfies this law. An unloaded gun with the ammunition stored in a separate part of the vehicle satisfies this law. A unloaded gun laying in the passengers seat with the ammunition right beside it does not satisfy the requirements of this law.

[Guest tonybon]

thanks guys. guess I'll keep it unloaded in the camper. gun on nite stand( locked of corse) ammo in the top drawer. till next year.

[Wingshooter]

Hasn't the TWRA had enough time to learn about the WMA/HCP law? I got pretty much this same response from a TWRA guy today about the North Cumberland WMA / Royal Blue:

I just spoke with officers at Royal Blue, Guess what there response was? They stated that we can still not carry due to other laws and regulations furthermore they will never allow carry unless new laws are passed. The laws they kept refering were loaded guns in the vehicle, when i asked about unloaded they said no because there were no open hunting season at present. Can anyone help out or have any suggestions., kk

I don't know how the deer hunting is there, but I was planning to go scout the area soon. He said that if I was caught with a handgun (HCP or not) while riding on the ATV trails, that I might get my weapon confiscated and ticketed although it would be legal for me to be there in the WMA.

He said the reason it is not allowed is that they prohibit firearms except during the hunting season (and then only what is legal for the game). He also said that it is such a new law that they have not made any decisions on what to do . He also informed me that "nobody had any use for a handgun there".

The way I understand it, the law is in effect. Can they just choose to ignore its existence forever because it is a "new law"?

Has anyone received any different information about this WMA? It's 146,000 acres, and I would like to be able to carry more than a slingshot during the off season.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Batman