Carry in WMA's bill HB 0961

[Fallguy]

Batman I generally agree with you.

The one thing is the bill really just adds an exemption to the current law if you have HCP. That is slightly different than flat out saying you can do something regardless.

Sort of like having an HCP exempts you from 39-17-1307 prohibiting people from carrying a loaded handgun, however there are still restrictions to carry.

I feel what this bill is trying to do is remove a restriction in which a person with a HCP would have otherwise been able to carry in a WMA if it wasn't for 70-4-117

[Wingshooter]

That's true - good point.

[victorcharlie]

You can carry what is legal on public hunting land pretty much year round, as long as you have the proper hunting license and WMA permit. I have a sportsman's license. It is $136. I can hunt on any public land without the WMA permit. For example, coyote season is year round. Right now, I can go hiking in Fayette County at Wolf River WMA and claim to be coyote hunting and carry a rimfire handgun, rimfire rifle, or shotgun loaded with #4 shot or smaller. It is that easy. I squirrel hunt out there too during squirrel season. Beavers and little starlings are year round too. If i want to hike, I just stick to my 22LR Browning Buck Mark, carry my hunting license, and I'm good to go. You don't need a handgun carry permit when 'hunting' but of course i carry it anyway because i keep it loaded in my car when i travel to the WMA.

During gun deer season, you can carry a centerfire handgun with a four inch barrel. I generally carry a Glock 19 9mm. The problem TN has is you can't carry any firearm when bow hunting, even if you say want to squirrel hunt when the deer hunting is slow....kind of silly. I guess If you hunt on private land....no one really knows.

Coyote season is not open year round in many WMA's. Special rules apply. Yep, I've tried that arguement with a TWRA leo at the local sportsman's warehouse and was made aware of the special provisions for a wma.

[victorcharlie]

So this would still apply? 70-4-117. Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty. — (a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections ( and ©. ( (1) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor. (2) It is mandatory upon the court to impose the prison sentence, upon conviction for a second or subsequent offense, and the prison sentence is not subject to suspension. © In the prosecution of a second or subsequent offense, the indictment or presentment must allege the prior conviction for violating any of the provisions of this section, setting forth the time and place of each such prior conviction. The court shall prohibit such convicted person, either a first or subsequent offender, from hunting, fishing or trapping in this state for a period of one (1) year. [Acts 1951, ch. 115, §§ 44, 47 (Williams, §§ 5178.73, 5178.76); Acts 1957, ch. 382, § 7; 1957, ch. 384, § 2; 1961, ch. 198, § 3; 1976, ch. 681, § 1; 1982, ch. 701, §§ 4-6; 1982, ch. 738, § 21; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), §§ 51-427, 51-429; Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 113; 1990, ch. 981, § 3.] previous document next document

[Guest Patty]

You can carry what is legal on public hunting land pretty much year round, as long as you have the proper hunting license and WMA permit. I have a sportsman's license. It is $136. I can hunt on any public land without the WMA permit. For example, coyote season is year round. Right now, I can go hiking in Fayette County at Wolf River WMA and claim to be coyote hunting and carry a rimfire handgun, rimfire rifle, or shotgun loaded with #4 shot or smaller. It is that easy. I squirrel hunt out there too during squirrel season. Beavers and little starlings are year round too. If i want to hike, I just stick to my 22LR Browning Buck Mark, carry my hunting license, and I'm good to go. You don't need a handgun carry permit when 'hunting' but of course i carry it anyway because i keep it loaded in my car when i travel to the WMA.

During gun deer season, you can carry a centerfire handgun with a four inch barrel. I generally carry a Glock 19 9mm. The problem TN has is you can't carry any firearm when bow hunting, even if you say want to squirrel hunt when the deer hunting is slow....kind of silly. I guess If you hunt on private land....no one really knows.

If I understand WMA's regs correctly, a coyote can be taken on any hunt, that is open on that given day. That being said, and not knowing what is open on the one you stated today, but the only game that is open today, and I am not saying it is open today, but is statewide, is crow's. Some WMA's only allow crow hunting on Thurs thur Saturdays. There is not any season for coyote, other than it not being closed. So what I gather is that you can only hunt coyote's during another game hunt. And some WMA's do not allow center fire weapons at all for any hunts. Each WMA has its own rules.

[Guest Patty]

So this would still apply? 70-4-117. Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty. — (a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections ( and ©. ( (1) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor. (2) It is mandatory upon the court to impose the prison sentence, upon conviction for a second or subsequent offense, and the prison sentence is not subject to suspension. © In the prosecution of a second or subsequent offense, the indictment or presentment must allege the prior conviction for violating any of the provisions of this section, setting forth the time and place of each such prior conviction. The court shall prohibit such convicted person, either a first or subsequent offender, from hunting, fishing or trapping in this state for a period of one (1) year. [Acts 1951, ch. 115, §§ 44, 47 (Williams, §§ 5178.73, 5178.76); Acts 1957, ch. 382, § 7; 1957, ch. 384, § 2; 1961, ch. 198, § 3; 1976, ch. 681, § 1; 1982, ch. 701, §§ 4-6; 1982, ch. 738, § 21; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), §§ 51-427, 51-429; Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 113; 1990, ch. 981, § 3.] previous document next document

So what we are discovering is the reg's have some laws behind them, lol. I think if we keep thinking, we might discover that the TWRA can become a group we should support. As quickly as possible, some WMA's have firing ranges, for use if you have a WMA Permit.

[Wingshooter]

So this would still apply? 70-4-117. Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty. — (a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections ( and ©. ( (1) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor. (2) It is mandatory upon the court to impose the prison sentence, upon conviction for a second or subsequent offense, and the prison sentence is not subject to suspension. © In the prosecution of a second or subsequent offense, the indictment or presentment must allege the prior conviction for violating any of the provisions of this section, setting forth the time and place of each such prior conviction. The court shall prohibit such convicted person, either a first or subsequent offender, from hunting, fishing or trapping in this state for a period of one (1) year. [Acts 1951, ch. 115, §§ 44, 47 (Williams, §§ 5178.73, 5178.76); Acts 1957, ch. 382, § 7; 1957, ch. 384, § 2; 1961, ch. 198, § 3; 1976, ch. 681, § 1; 1982, ch. 701, §§ 4-6; 1982, ch. 738, § 21; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), §§ 51-427, 51-429; Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 113; 1990, ch. 981, § 3.] previous document next document

The way I understand it, yes unless you have a HCP. Then here is the exemption:

Bill Summary

Under present law, it is unlawful for any person to possess a firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle while in any refuge, public hunting area, or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open hunting seasons on these areas. This bill authorizes a person with a Tennessee handgun carry permit to possess a handgun the entire year while on any refuge, public hunting area, wildlife management area, or, to the extent permitted by federal law, national forest land maintained by the state or national park.

ON JUNE 17, 2009, THE HOUSE ADOPTED AMENDMENT #1 AND PASSED HOUSE BILL 961, AS AMENDED.

AMENDMENT #1 specifies that a person with a handgun permit may not possess a handgun in the portion of any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area that is within the boundaries of a state park or natural area unless otherwise authorized under present law. This amendment also specifies that a person may not access any area unless the person is in full compliance with all wildlife laws and rules.

</H3> Edited June 20, 2009 by Batman

[victorcharlie]

Re-reading the bill, the way I see it, if it's a multi-use wma, like the Cherokee National Forest, then carry is legal. If the WMA is closed to all uses other than hunting then carry would illegal, except during a hunt. Am I interpreting the bill correctly?

[Guest Patty]

You might be, if said hunt did allow handgun, and handgun was at the legal length, and caliber.

[Fallguy]

Re-reading the bill, the way I see it, if it's a multi-use wma, like the Cherokee National Forest, then carry is legal. If the WMA is closed to all uses other than hunting then carry would illegal, except during a hunt. Am I interpreting the bill correctly?

I think it goes back to what I said....the bill will allow you to carry your handgun, if you have a HCP, as long as you can legally be in the WMA.

If a WMA is closed to any access for some reason, this bill doesn't mean you can go on to the WMA and carry just because you have HCP.

To answer your question, even if the WMA is closed except for hunting, if you have a HCP, then I think this law will allow you to carry your handgun as long as you have the permits ect...you need to hunt in that WMA. If you don't have whatever you need to hunt in that WMA you could not carry, because you have no legal right to be there in the first place.

[Guest Patty]

I think you got it now.

[victorcharlie]

Yep, clear as mud now. Anyone think laws will ever be written where the average guy can understand them without consulting an attorney?

[Fallguy]

I think you got it now.

LOL...I think we both always "had it" we were just coming from different directions and maybe both not being as clear as we could have been.

[JayC]

I don't disagree that violating a TWRA regulation can land you in front of a judge... Just that TWRA regulation is not above state law, and the bill and laws we're talking about here are going to force the change of some TWRA regulation because the law removes their ability to regulate certain things. The intent of the legislature is for HCP holders to be able to carry while hunting (or any other acvtivity) on these state controled lands, any attempt by the TWRA to block that intent will likely be resolved next session by the legislature (BTW it's my understanding the TWRA was onboard with the language of the current WMA carry bill, and the long gun carry bill so I suspect this will truely be a non-issue).

You say many WMA's are off limits to everybody except hunters, I've skimmed through the 2009 Hunters Guide and can't seem to find any WMAs with such limits, can you please provide an example of a WMA which is closed to everybody except hunters?

Also you state that some WMAs are on private land, I'm aware of Public Hunting Areas, but I'm not aware of any WMAs on privately leased land... Can you provide an example of a WMA on private land leased to the state? (I'm very aware we have a good bit of Federal land that happens to be state managed WMAs, but that is different from privately owned land).

I don't think anybody here is encouraging that somebody breaks the law, or runs amuck of TWRA regulations, I too and curious to see exactly what the TWRA says is or isn't allowed, because there are some grey areas with hunting that the current bill IMHO doesn't completely cover.

I suspect the example given that you may legally carry a handgun for self defense (with a HCP) while bow hunting will be legal this season. As I can't find a state law that would prevent you from doing so once 0961 becomes law.

JayC, I don't have a problem with someone giving information to correct mine, but if you don't follow the regulations on TWRA property, you will find yourself in a court of law, depending on what regulation was broken, and then once again it will be up to a Judge to determine that in each case. So you can see this anyway you choose at this point. As I do also.

In many locations, TWRA WMA's are off limits with the exception of Hunters who have purchased a WMA permit for the purpose which that WMA allows during that time of the year. Granted some of the WMA's do allow the public access, some of them allow hiking and camping, some allow pleasure boating on them. But TWRA is the Law Enforcement Agency of these WMA's. Some are also govern also by State Park Officers or the Corp. Of Engineers Law Enforcement Officers.

All I am trying to point out is this, we already have the 2nd Amendment right, but yet will still pay a extra fee for the HCP, which really amounts to a tax. But this is a whole different can of worms, if you like. But yet we still don't accept the facts that there are many other rules already in place that we are subjected to, because we have accepted the HCP once we signed on the dotted line for that. When we signed we agreed to follow any and all postings and notices that request that we do not carry.

I just want the 2nd Amendment right given back !, I would like to see anybody who cared to carry. Any where they wanted, there are someplaces that I just don't want to carry into anyways.

So if the right to carry in a WMA passes. Does that mean I can carry in WMA's, one is going to think so, I will have to see how the Regs are written before I attempt to. Because I am a TWRA supporter, I will not create a problem for myself or the officers who are going to be cautious about this.

[Fallguy]

I suspect the example given that you may legally carry a handgun for self defense (with a HCP) while bow hunting will be legal this season. As I can't find a state law that would prevent you from doing so once 0961 becomes law.

I thought I had already posted this law once...

70-4-123 Hunting with bow and arrow while in possession of firearms or accompanied by a person in possession of firearms.

(a) It is unlawful for any person hunting big game with a bow and arrow to be in possession of any firearms or be accompanied in hunting by any person possessing firearms during the archery-only deer season.

( A person who violates the provisions of this section commits a Class C misdemeanor.

Seems pretty clear that you can not be armed or even have anyone with you that is armed while you are bow hunting big game if it is archery only season.

The bill to change this HB0770 is still waiting to be hear in committee when the legislature is back in session.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Fallguy

[Guest Patty]

JayC, one example that comes to attention would be Catoosa at certain times are close to the public. Most closures happen during Big Game Hunts, although some are open providing the public wears the Hunter Orange. AEDC is closed to the General Public in certain areas, most of the time, and some of the time even to WMA permit holders. You would just have to call each TWRA Land Manager to find out.

Bear Hollow is leased, AEDC is a Federal piece of land which TWRA has a portion of for a WMA, the do not own it. Some of the State Parks are also portioned off to TWRA as WMA's too. There use to be a TWRA WMA outside of Tullahoma towards Moore County that was leased, but that lease was not renewed. I could be wrong about the lease, agreements, and such. But this has been a practice for them. Also all of the WMA's along the Cumberland River are mostly on the Corps land. Percy Priest is another example. The list is all in the Hunting and Trapping Guide. TWRA controls and enforce's the whole state of Tennessee on either private or TWRA Lands, and also waterways for Fish and Game.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Patty

[JayC]

If HB0961 becomes law then it adds the following exception to 70-4-117:

(d) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a person with a handgun carry permit pursuant to § 39-17-1351 may possess a handgun the entire year while on the premises of any refuge, public hunting area, wildlife management area or, to the extent permitted by federal law, national forest land maintained by the state. Nothing in this subsection (d) shall authorize a person to use any handgun to hunt unless such person is in full compliance with all wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

So yes, once 0961 becomes law you'll be able to carry a handgun on WMAs.

One thing I have been mistaken about... is that Long Gun Carry doesn't appear to impact WMAs it will still be illegal to carry a loaded long gun on WMAs even if you're driving to the range. Looks like we'll need to get another section added to it next session to allow that.

So this would still apply? 70-4-117. Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty. — (a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections ( and ©. ( (1) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor. (2) It is mandatory upon the court to impose the prison sentence, upon conviction for a second or subsequent offense, and the prison sentence is not subject to suspension. © In the prosecution of a second or subsequent offense, the indictment or presentment must allege the prior conviction for violating any of the provisions of this section, setting forth the time and place of each such prior conviction. The court shall prohibit such convicted person, either a first or subsequent offender, from hunting, fishing or trapping in this state for a period of one (1) year. [Acts 1951, ch. 115, §§ 44, 47 (Williams, §§ 5178.73, 5178.76); Acts 1957, ch. 382, § 7; 1957, ch. 384, § 2; 1961, ch. 198, § 3; 1976, ch. 681, § 1; 1982, ch. 701, §§ 4-6; 1982, ch. 738, § 21; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), §§ 51-427, 51-429; Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 113; 1990, ch. 981, § 3.] previous document next document

[JayC]

So what we are discovering is the reg's have some laws behind them, lol. I think if we keep thinking, we might discover that the TWRA can become a group we should support. As quickly as possible, some WMA's have firing ranges, for use if you have a WMA Permit.

I don't think we've ever said the TWRA didn't have laws allowing them to regulate firearms on WMAs, only that they are limited in what the can't regulate by state law.

In this example, 70-4-117 is changed once 0961 becomes law, to allow HCP holders to carry, also 70-5-101 is also changed... Both of these are listed in TWRA rules and regulations for WMAs (Fallguy posted a link a few posts back) as the authority the TWRA currently uses to prohibit handguns on hunts. Once the law is changed, it will remove the TWRAs authority to prohibit such actions through regulations.

I'm all for support the TWRA it can be a good state agency and does some good, but that doesn't mean I want to walk into a public woods unprotected. And hopefully hb0961 will become law in the next few days and that problem will go away.

[JayC]

I thought I had already posted this law once...

Seems pretty clear that you can not be armed or even have anyone with you that is armed while you are bow hunting big game if it is archery only season.

The bill to change this HB0770 is still waiting to be hear in committee when the legislature is back in session.

I think you did and I forgot, I stand corrected Fallguy.

[JayC]

I agree there are WMAs which are closed off at times, or only allow hunters with some exceptions during certain times of the year, but I haven't found a single WMA (there are some refuges which appear to be mostly closed all year) where the vast majority of the year isn't open to the general public for hiking for example during daylight hours. I agree fully there maybe times which you must have a valid hunting permit to be on WMAs (or be with somebody with a valid hunting permit) but generally speaking they are open to the public with some exceptions.

The point I was trying to make before is that if you can legally be there (with the noted exception Fallguy has correctly pointed out with bow hunting) you can carry a handgun for self defense once HB0961 becomes law. For STATE owned WMAs (including those which are part of a state park since park carry covers that)...

Federal land may be an entirely different matter if there is federal regulations or laws preventing carry such as a General Order at LBL preventing carry today. And there are a ton of WMAs which happen to be on federal land in this state and we'll have to check each and every one to verify that it's legal to carry a handgun on. But the state owned WMAs should be fine as soon as HB0961 which is still a large chunk of the WMAs in the state.

JayC, one example that comes to attention would be Catoosa at certain times are close to the public. Most closures happen during Big Game Hunts, although some are open providing the public wears the Hunter Orange. AEDC is closed to the General Public in certain areas, most of the time, and some of the time even to WMA permit holders. You would just have to call each TWRA Land Manager to find out.

Bear Hollow is leased, AEDC is a Federal piece of land which TWRA has a portion of for a WMA, the do not own it. Some of the State Parks are also portioned off to TWRA as WMA's too. There use to be a TWRA WMA outside of Tullahoma towards Moore County that was leased, but that lease was not renewed. I could be wrong about the lease, agreements, and such. But this has been a practice for them. Also all of the WMA's along the Cumberland River are mostly on the Corps land. Percy Priest is another example. The list is all in the Hunting and Trapping Guide. TWRA controls and enforce's the whole state of Tennessee on either private or TWRA Lands, and also waterways for Fish and Game.

[Guest Patty]

Jayc, I would encourage you to follow the TWRA reactions on this matter, each WMA's have different rules, this can be and is for me quiet a problem. When hunting season that I enjoy open back up, I travel from one to the other to hunt. I use dogs quite often, some allow the use of dogs and others do not, some allow rifles and others do not. With my dogs, its hard to explain that I am not using them, even though that are locked up in the dog box. Some allow handguns and others do not. I don't think that is going to change, even though you have the right to carry one. It may only be allowed in the firing range areas or camp grounds during hunting seasons. I have had TWRA Officers question why I had several rifles in the truck. There are safety zones and no hunting zones inside of many different WMA's, and as a HCP holder, once you enter a WMA you can, not knowingly be in trouble from the get go. So many different Officers with so many different ideas as to what the regs are already, and so, just error on the side of caution.

[Guest Patty]

Jayc, if you would read pages 40, 41, and 42 in the 2008 and 2009 Hunting and Trapping Guide. This guide book is effective untill July 2009. This will allow you to read that these WMA's are open to the public "for" hunting and trapping, "although certain regulations do apply". I would think that means just that. Some do allow other activity.

[Fallguy]

I think the three of us (JayC, Patty and myself) are in 99.9% agreement.

The one thing just posted I would disagree with is..

Some allow handguns and others do not. I don't think that is going to change, even though you have the right to carry one.

I think that will have to change when this becomes law. At least in so far as just being able to carry a handgun. Nothing has to change as far as use of handgun to hunt regardless of this bill/law.

[Guest Patty]

I can agree, I just hope when its all said and done, I can still have a job that affords me the money to get out and enjoy my rights.

[EMTRN]

Oh I look like a poacher I guess, if that helps explain why it happens. lol, The officers are cool around here to. Are you saying I am making this up ?

No, I am not saying you are making it up. And I did not mean that you looked like a poacher. I just felt that the Felony Stop was a little excessive for a hunting lic check. I was implying that it seemed like overkill unless you are 6'7" 300 lbs.