Metro Davidson Council seeks to override HB0962 on local level

[jaysouth]

Here is the email that I sent to all the members:

From: jwsoutherland@comcast.net

To: Metro Council

Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 8:06 AM

Subject: banning 'guns in bars' via beer board regulations

Find something useful to do.

You could start by:

Making high school seniors be able to read or write

Figuring out how to keep our middle class from moving to Wilson Co.

Locate and patch potholes.

Those of you who are concerned about the actions of the legislature in overturning the gov's. veto should get a life and move on. You lost, get over it, and find something productive to besides posture on this issue or cramming more white elephants(convention center) down the throats of taxpayers. Review my list above again.

Park Toler and Duane dominy emailed back and thanked me for my support.

charlie tygard responded:

Let's see - you want to influence people to vote your position and you mock and deride the people who vote?

My advise - start your discourse over and rationally explain your position

You do more harm to your position than you can ever imagine

Charlie Tygard

tygard is still pissed at me. I demanded that he and the other members personally guarantee the debt of the future convention center is it was "such a sure fire thing"

[mightymouse]

Looks like this ball is going to start rolling:

UPDATE: Metro councilman files for restaurant gun ban | tennessean.com | The Tennessean

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

Jay

I appreciate where you are coming from, but Charlie has a point (I"m not saying he is right on the issue - he just has a point). Our best bet is to be as civil and professional as possible on this issue. That is what the city council folks will respond to the best.

[Guest D.B. Cooper]

In case someone doesn't want to use the form, which goes to a distribution list email. I extracted all the Council members individual email addresses. I will be asking all my carry permit friends for their help (both in and out of Tennessee).

diane.neighbors@nashville.gov - Diane Neighbors (Vice Mayor)

tim.garrett@nashville.gov - Tim Garrett (At Large)

megan.barry@nashville.gov - Megan Barry (At Large)

charlie.tygard@nashville.gov - Charlie Tygard (At Large)

ronnie.steine@nashville.gov - Ronnie Steine (At Large)

jerry.maynard@nashville.gov - Jerry Maynard (At Large)

lonnell.matthews@nashville.gov - Lonnell Matthews, Jr (District 1)

frank.harrison@nashville.gov - Frank Harrison (District 2)

whuntnash@aol.com - Walter Hunt (District 3)

michael.craddock@nashville.gov - Michael Craddock (District 4)

pam.murray@nashville.gov - Pam Murray (District 5)

mike.jameson@nashville.gov - Mike Jameson (District 6)

erik.cole@nashville.gov - Erik Cole (District 7)

karen.bennett@nashville.gov - Karen Bennett (District 8)

jim.forkum@nashville.gov - Jim Forkum (District 9)

rip.ryman@nashville.gov - Rip Ryman (District 10)

darren.jernigan@nashville.gov - Darren Jernigan (District 11)

jim.gotto@nashville.gov - Jim Gotto (District 12)

carl.burch@nashville.gov - Carl Burch (District 13)

bruce.stanley@nashville.gov - J. Bruce Stanley (District 14)

phil.claiborne@nashville.gov - Phillip Claiborne (District 15)

anna.page@nashville.gov - Anna Page (District 16)

sandra.moore@nashville.gov - Sandra Moore (District 17)

Kristine.LaLonde@nashville.gov - Kristine Lalonde (District 18)

erica.gilmore@nashville.gov - Erica Gilmore (District 19)

buddy.baker@nashville.gov - Buddy Baker (District 20)

edith.langster@nashville.gov - Edith Taylor Langster (District 21)

eric.crafton@nashville.gov - Eric Crafton (District 22)

emily.evans@nashville.gov - Emily Evans (District 23)

jason.holleman@nashville.gov - Jason Holleman (District 24)

sean.mcguire@nashville.gov - Sean McGuire (District 25)

greg.adkins@nashville.gov - Greg Adkins (District 26)

randy.foster@nashville.gov - Randy Foster (District 27)

duane.dominy@nashville.gov - Duane Dominy (District 28)

vivian.wilhoite@nashville.gov - Vivian Wilhoite (District 29)

jim.hodge@nashville.gov - Jim Hodge(District 30)

parker.toler@nashville.gov - Parker Toler (District 31)

sam.coleman@nashville.gov - Sam Coleman (District 32)

robert.duvall@nashville.gov - Robert Duvall(District 33)

carter.todd@nashville.gov - Carter Todd (District 34)

bo.mitchell@nashville.gov - Bo Mitchell (District 35)

Good luck!

[Guest sstouder]

SEN Jackson is defending us once again:

Tygard and three other council members — Megan Barry, Jerry Maynard and Carter Todd — sponsored the proposed ordinance, which is meant to thwart a state law that lets handgun permit holders take their weapon into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol starting July 14.

Tygard said he’d introduced the measure to allow a debate to take place on whether to allow guns in the approximately 1,500 Nashville establishments that have a beer permit.

“I do not profess to know what the issues the governor and the state legislature considered with their actions,” Tygard said in an email to council members. “I do know that this is an issue that many people are apparently passionate about — on both sides of the issue.”

By filing today, Tygard puts the measure on track for a first reading at the council’s June 16 meeting. A vote on the matter could take place by the end of July.

The state law’s sponsor, Sen. Doug Jackson, said in a statement that the Metro proposal is illegal.

“The proposed ordinance is clearly not the correct approach and is barred by state law,” Jackson said. “State law presently gives the restaurant owner the choice to prohibit handguns by posting proper signage.”

[Guest SUNTZU]

If TN turns into a bunch of city-states, does that mean we can invade other cities? Apparently we can flout laws if we don't want to follow them.

[Guest illumina]

Here's my email. I used the form and sent it to the entire council.

Greetings, I am writing in regard to the new movement to ban guns in restaurants that have beer licenses.

First, I am not a resident of the Nashville area, but I am a resident of Tennessee and visit the Nashville area occasionally, so I figured this does indeed affect me.

I would like to state my support of the recent veto override by the house and senate. The recently passed state bill HB0962 allows for individual restaurant owners to post their own gun bans on their front door, which should be sufficient. Many restaurant owners themselves have handgun carry permits, and forcing the ban is not only against state law, but unethical and unfair to those owners. It should be up to the individual owner of the restaurant whether they want to ban guns or not, which is how it is stated in HB0962.

Not only would your ban on guns in beer serving restaurants affect residents of TN that are visiting, but residents of all states that allow handgun carry permits. Imagine an individual visiting TN from another nearby state and having to pay close attention to which county they are in to determine if they can carry their personal defense weapon or not.

Thank you for your time.

Caleb Lesch

Knoxville/Johnson City resident

[Guest sstouder]

Here is the email that I sent to all the members:

From: jwsoutherland@comcast.net

To: Metro Council

Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 8:06 AM

Subject: banning 'guns in bars' via beer board regulations

Find something useful to do.

You could start by:

Making high school seniors be able to read or write

Figuring out how to keep our middle class from moving to Wilson Co.

Locate and patch potholes.

Locate patch potholes in Nashville would def keep them busy for the next decade. haha your course is unrefined but i find it hilarious

[Guest stovepipe]

You do more harm to your position than you can ever imagine

Yeah, that's rule #1 - Treat others as you wish to be treated. Ticking someone off usually starts things off on the wrong foot. - Take the high road when possible.

[Guest BMcCoy]

Nashville Councilmen Want To Thwart State Gun Law - NewsChannel 5.com - Nashville, Tennessee -

Always an ass hat wanting to rain on someone elses parade.

Ben

[Daniel]

again!

[Guest Ravendove]

I used to work for TN Tourist Development. I know a lot of people there are for restaurant carry and some are HCP holders themselves. I think they'll be receptive if you talk to them about it.

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

This annoys me no end. A tiny group of self-important little beanbags looking to weasel their way around the law passed fair and square. They think they are saving us from ourselves. The traditional liberal mindset. We'd better think for 'em cuz they is so stupid.

[Guest HexHead]

Update.

I just had a nice long conversation with Charlie Tygard. Bottom line is he assured me that the current thinking of the Metro Law Department is that this proposal is illegal and it will be pulled at the next council meeting.

He explained to me his timing of filing the bill now, was to do it while the State legislature was still in session, not to wait a month or so to float it when they were out of session in case they wanted to act on it, ie: bring beer under the State liquor board.

He got a little curt with me when I mentioned I've had about a dozen emails back and forth with the NRA over this and could about guarantee Metro would have an expensive legal battle on their hands if they proceeded.

He's not a gun guy at all and was unaware of the long battle to get where we got yesterday over the years and said he basically filed the motion to get an inevitable dialog started so it could be dealt with quickly.

Again, he assured me he felt confident this would be pulled next week.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Heres the untweaked one I sent... its close to the one I actually sent.

----------------------------------------------

Dear Council Members,

Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Phillip Arrington, I am a resident of Nashville and have lived here my whole life. My wife is Nancy Arrington. In the past I have been a local police officer for several different counties and municipalitys. I am currently a firearms instructor and have been licensed as such by the State of Tennessee for 15 years. Both of us are business owners in Nashville. I am also a merchant, President of my Neighborhood Association, and some even call me a community leader.

First I want to thank you all for your service on our cities council. However there is something that is bothering me greatly. As most of you know the state legislature overwhelmingly passed into law bills that will allow Handgun Permit holders the right to carry into restaurants that sell alcohol for onsite consumption. Governor Bredesen unsuccessfully attempted to veto these resolutions and again they passes by an overwhelming majority.

Since these bills have passed the citizens of our great city have heard rumors that some of OUR elected officials in the Metro Council have decided to go against our will and attempt to circumvent our new state law and constitutional rights. Passing some kind of resolution by tampering with the beer laws the Legislature gave you jurisdiction over. These actions are unacceptable. Why would you allow the will of the people that elected you to be denied?

I'd like to also point out this possible action will violate TCA 39-17-1314 which specifically forbids local municipality's from regulating the possession and carrying of firearms. Your actions would in fact attempt firearms regulation.

What you might not know or understand is handgun permit holders have to complete and pass background checks to be able to purchase a handgun. Handgun permit holders also have to pass extensive TBI, FBI, Local, and International background checks to be able to legally carry their handguns. In order to pass these background checks they can have NO ALCOHOL related arrests in the last 5-10 years. So were not dealing with a bunch of drunks that's going to break the law. These are the best and most law abiding of our citizens. How many of you or your fellow council members have handgun carry permits? Do you trust them? If so then why not your constituents? Handgun Permit holders have been legally carrying handguns everywhere except these restaurants for 15 years with little to no negative instances caused by these permit holders.

I wonder if those that have been murdered in or around these restaurants had a voice in this discussion would they agree with your attempted actions? Let me give you just a few examples off the top of my head. Do any of you remember or know who Paul Reid is? He's a mass serial killer that preyed on Middle Tennessee Restaurants back in 1997. He was convicted of at least 7 deaths but was suspected of many more. Who can forget the young people killed in the execution-style murders at Bellacino's Pizza here in Nashville back in 2007? Do you remember the robbery and murder of O'Charleys manager Nadir Bahmanziari just last year? How about the latest, stalker and murderer Hank Wise ambushed and killed Ben Goeser at Johnny's Sports Bar, here in Nashville, on April 2, 2009. His widow Nikki was on the Senate floor when they voted to override the Governors veto. What some of you may not know is Ben and Nikki Goeser had a Handgun Carry Permits but chose to be law abiding citizens and left their firearms in their vehicle. They wanted to carry for protection but legally couldn't and chose to obey the law. They weren't drinking that night, they simply were there for karaoke. They both had extensive firearms training and knew what the stalker Hank Wise looked like. If one of them had been armed Ben would have at least had a chance to live. Instead poor Nikki had to watch her husband get gunned down and murdered by a criminal. She had time to call 911 before shots were fired, so where were the police? Btw, what law stopped Hank Wise from bringing his illegal gun into the bar? Nothing... criminals don't bother worrying about laws or signs, then never have and never will.

The legislature gave business owners that don't want to participate in this legal activity the right to opt out by placing legal signage on their business entrances. I personally don't have a problem with that? Some will post, but statistics show most wont, they don't want too or want to alienate a certain legal class of citizens. Citizens that have been deemed safe... citizens with $$$$. They realize those persons have been eating in other restaurants like Wendy's and Capt. D's for many years with no problem. Do you realize how many the chain restaurants that are doing business in those other 37 states elected to not post signs? O'Charleys, Longhorn, Chilies, Logan's... But if you pass this type of resolution they will BE FORCED TO DO SO! Or they will simply choose not to serve beer. How is that fair?

Some will argue that the OPTIONAL signage will cause certain merchants to lose business. This is simply untrue, and no matter what resolution you pass the signage by law will have to be properly posted to be legal. How is all this going to be enforced anyway? Let the will of the people prevail, let merchants have the option of opting out if they want and don't force this on the others that see there is nothing to fear.

In closing I'd like to point out the consequences if this type of circumvention on State law and our rights. Does anyone want Nashville to be labeled as "Anti Gun" or "2nd amendment unfriendly"... especially when so many of the counties that border us will refuse to share that label? In short, can you afford to ignore your constituents.. and the will of the people come election time. An anti 2nd amendment brand is something that will stay with you politically for your entire career. How much revenue will the city lose because of this councils possible action? Don't you think more and more people will just choose to eat out and spend their money right over the county line? Its happening right now, this will just make it worse. Will any pro 2nd amendment group ever darken our doors or any convention center we build? Hunting, Fishing, outdoors... Can the city afford to fight an extensive legal fight with the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment groups? Do you really think the legislature of our great state will let these possible action go unnoticed and not close this loophole at the earliest possible moment?

As you know 37 other states, most that border Tennessee, already allow their permit holders to carry into these establishments where alcohol is served. Again they have had no negative instances where the permit holder did anything wrong. So why would the Metro council not trust their law abiding constituents?

Please don't even entertain any notion of violating the State law and our rights as citizens of the State of Tennessee and these United States. The citizens of Atlanta, Georgia are trusted with this right and have been for some time, why will you not trust us? Crime in Atlanta's restaurants has actually dropped since they adopted this legislation.

Please don't take part in any attempt to deny us our rights that God, our Constitution, and our State Legislature have granted us as Tennesseans.

Thank you for your time and attention,

Phillip Arrington

*******

Goodlettsville, Tn 37072

615*******

[Guest HexHead]

Great letter Phil. Little wordy though. LOLOLOL

[Guest benchpresspower]

I agree 39-17-1314 appears to prevent this type of ordinance, but how exactly are we to enforce it? The only method I'm aware of is to have somebody with standing file suit against Davidson County (beer board or council, not sure which), and spend lots of money over the next 3, 5, 10 years?

Or go back to the state legislature and get them to close this "loop hole", which will take a nearly a year I'd guess. Keep in mind this is the same legislature that just passed an unclean law allowing local governments to prohibit carry in the parks.

We need to continue the pressure a little while longer to prevent this from getting much worse.

Couldn't the NRA get involved in this? Do they even know that this is in the works?

[Guest HexHead]

Couldn't the NRA get involved in this? Do they even know that this is in the works?

I've had several emails back and forth with them about this since yesterday, updating them with each development. They assured me they'd bring all their resources to bear if necessary.

Right now. it looks like Metro is backing off and this won't be necessary. See post #111 above.

[Motasyco]

Wow, there are some excellent writers here. No wonder the media is anti-gun. I don't think they're afraid of the guns, I think they're intimidated by the intelligence and writing abilities of gun owners.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Great letter, Phil!

I don't live in Metro Davidson County, but I do work there and spend a lot of my hard earned money there. I guarantee you if they pull this prank, they'll never get another dime from me.

[Guest .45packer]

Councilman Charlie Tygard says he has spoken with Dread and may introduce the ordinance. He says he’s interested in the idea because he fears the city’s tourism industry could be harmed if no-handgun signs start sprouting up on restaurants and bars.

Hmmm, does this mean that Councilman Tygard is afraid that patrons might think that they are entering a dangerous place and that posting "no handgun" signs will cause them to think that they are vulnerable and could be shot by BG's. Why else would this worry him? I guess they think the permit carrying adults in TN are a bunch of unsophisticated hillbillys who will shoot first and ask questions later. Damn the statistics, full speed ahead!!!

[JayC]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere already... but here is a copy of the proposed ordinance.

http://tennessean.com/assets/pdf/DN13619965.PDF

I see some major problems with it... I'll quote my post from over at TFA:

John,

You've probably already noticed this but I thought I'd point it out...

First this would ban a lot more than HCP Holders in these establishments.

1. It appears to remove the right of an owner to carry inside the business for their own protection. I believe that has been allowed under the law for decades with again little to no abuse by owners and their employees.

2. It appears as currently worded this would prevent armed deposit pickup from companies such as brinks security coming to get deposits.

3. It appears to remove the ability for the restaurant owner to hire off duty officers to provide security for their establishments (since many departments require officers to always be armed in public). Also it seems to ban any form of legal on-site armed security as well.

4. It seems to clearly try to regulate possession of a firearm in these businesses which seems on it's face to violate 39-17-1314.

Those are just some of the things I noticed.

This bill goes way past banning HCP holders... I seriously doubt once business owners are made aware of these restrictions it will kill the ordinance in it's current form.

[Oh Shoot]

Update.

I just had a nice long conversation with Charlie Tygard. Bottom line is he assured me that the current thinking of the Metro Law Department is that this proposal is illegal and it will be pulled at the next council meeting. ..

You know, there is no telling who's talking to who behind the scenes here. I mean, everybody's in NashVegas: the legislators, the AG, the Gov...there's really no way to know who is telling who what they might do if this, if that...

Matter of fact, it seems to me almost certainly there has been interaction between the Metro Council and state folks - why? Because nobody 'cept the Council has spoken out to the press yet, generally a sure sign that something IS being "worked out" (read: "coerced"). And if "worked out" there, you can pretty well bet that the other TN burgs will "get the word".

- OS

[JayC]

You know, there is no telling who's talking to who behind the scenes here. I mean, everybody's in NashVegas: the legislators, the AG, the Gov...there's really no way to know who is telling who what they might do if this, if that...

Matter of fact, it seems to me almost certainly there has been interaction between the Metro Council and state folks - why? Because nobody 'cept the Council has spoken out to the press yet, generally a sure sign that something IS being "worked out" (read: "coerced"). And if "worked out" there, you can pretty well bet that the other TN burgs will "get the word".

- OS

I hope you're right, after reading the proposed ordinance, in it's current form I don't see it passing.

[Guest HexHead]

You know, there is no telling who's talking to who behind the scenes here. I mean, everybody's in NashVegas: the legislators, the AG, the Gov...there's really no way to know who is telling who what they might do if this, if that...

Matter of fact, it seems to me almost certainly there has been interaction between the Metro Council and state folks - why? Because nobody 'cept the Council has spoken out to the press yet, generally a sure sign that something IS being "worked out" (read: "coerced"). And if "worked out" there, you can pretty well bet that the other TN burgs will "get the word".

- OS

I got the feeling that there was the implicit threat the State legislature would take beer away from the beer boards control.