Okay, this is troubling....

[GLOCKMEISTER]

please dont make this thread a pizzing match....

We will need all the help we can get before this is all said and done.

[Guest 3pugguy]

Gun stays in safe until I get home. The Chilis is near home, so I am not unarmed all that long. I know and obey the law. But I am curious that someone on the forum finds this disturbing when most of the forum seems to believe that they should be able to carry openly into bars, where they almost invariably imbibe. I have been drinking for 48 years and I well know that drinkers with alcohol present are going to drink. Disobeying blatantly is "expressing your 2d A rights" while a possible indiscretion (not in my case!) is a horrible violation of the law. I think we need to get some balance here! Guns and alcohol don't mix period , that is just common sense. Guns and drunks (not the carrier!) for sure don't mix. If I want to drink I know that I have surrendered my 2d A rights for right now, it is a conscious and personal choice. I don't blame politicians for it, it is a good sane rule.

Momma (a non-drinker) drives home by the way.

I am not trying to stir anything up, as I find the back and forth on these topics interesting (and proof of the old saying about all of us having opinions and you know...).

But I have a questions: if Chilis is real close to your home, why even carry the gun one way, only to take it off and lock it up, then go back home?

Genuninely curious. For example, if I am going to Ft Campbell, I cannot carry on the post, so I leave my gun(s) at home (it is allowed if going directly to/from the shooting range on post, but no stops in between). Seems reasonable (to me) you would do the same for your trip to Chilis. I would do the same if going to a local place 15 minutes or from me to eat and have a beer. No worries then about what to do with my gun.

Last, if someone cannot stop themselves from drinking simply because there is alcohol present, they have bigger problems than we can cover on this forum(my two cents).

[Guest 3pugguy]

please dont make this thread a pizzing match....

We will need all the help we can get before this is all said and done.

I would agree with you - let common sense rule.

[Guest HexHead]

I just sent this to all Metro Council members...

Dear Council Members,

I thought I saw the granddaddy of bad ideas with the new convention center, but now you guys appear to have totally lost your minds.

The State legislature is their wisdom, yes in their wisdom, using FACTS, overwhelmingly supported the Guns in Restaurants bill. FACT: 37 states allow this practice with no problems from their well over one million licensed handgun carry permit holders. You can be sure if there were problems, the Tennessean would have gladly run as many stories as they could these past few weeks. Yet there were no such articles. I wonder why?

The Council is obviously being influenced by the liberal leanings of a few restaurant owners who under this law have the ability to simply post their establishment not to allow HCP holders from entering armed. Let me point out that HCP holders are the most law abiding group in this state and will follow that law, just as they will not to drink in the establishments that choose not to post.

The Council is gearing up to violate TCA 39-17-1314 and it's very likely that the NRA or some other Gun Owners organization will file suit over the ordinance, costing tax payers to spend money defending an illegal ordinance.

I've read that this is necessary to "not send the wrong message to tourists" by them seeing "posted" signs everywhere. So when permit holders from other states travel here and check the State law on carrying in restaurants and find they run afoul of a local law, do you really think that will help tourism? You're also going to run local HCP holders out of county to spend their discretionary income on food and drink. It's just as easy for me to go to Cool Springs to eat at a nice restaurant as to go downtown. Which I'll be doing. I may really like Neely's BBQ, but will develop a preference for Carl's Perfect Pig. I have lots of options.

The State Legislature is unlikely to allow this move to stand. I wouldn't be surprised to see your local beer board taken away and beer rolled into the State liquor license. Which is obviously the way it should be, as evidenced by this stupid proposal. You are trying to override the will of the people using extortion and duress. I'm sure you're all proud of yourselves.

Thanks for your time.

I should have let them know I've already contacted the NRA-ILA to have them get the attack dogs ready. LOLOLOL

[Defender]

I saw the PDF file of the council members and the e-mail links, but is there a list of e-mail addresses for them that one can copy and paste into an e-mail? I want to send everyone of them an email...

[Defender]

Nashville.gov - Metro Council Feedback Form

[Guest HexHead]

If Metro Council is successful in this endeavor, I implore all TGO members to not only boycott Davidson County restaurants, but also to do as much other shopping as possible outside Davidson County. Metro gets a portion of the sales tax and we can punish them where it hurts the most, tax revenue.

[Fallguy]

From what little bit of looking up I've done...here is what I've found.

First TN law on this gives different amounts of authority to Class A counties (Counties with no metro government) and Class B counties (counties with a metro government) Incorporated cities and towns.

It appears that in Class A Counties they can only enact restrictions on beer permits as provided in 57-5-105 as backed up in AG opinion 05-024

However in 57-5-106 Class B counties, Incorporated cities and towns can in addition to the restrictions allowed in 57-5-105 may "impose additional restrictions, fixing zones and territories and provide hours of opening and closing and such other rules and regulations as will promote public health, morals and safety as they may by ordinance provide." In AG opinion 06-082 the AG opined that a city could prohibit anyone convicted of DUI from getting a permit or even working in a place that has a beer permit. However they said that if someone had a ABC (liquor) server permit (issued by the state), they could not prevent them from working in a place with a beer permit. It also goes on to list court cases where many local ordnance were upheld upon challenge and one that wasn't.

However I'm not sure if any of the restrictions upheld could possible be in violation of state preemption law like firearms in 39-17-1314.

With all that said...it would seem that Class B counties, incorporated cities and towns do have wide authority to attach restrictions to beer permits. Whether that includes being able to regulate the possession of firearms, in possible violation of 39-17-1314 is to be determined I guess.

[Guest flyfishtn]

Submitted my letter.

[JayC]

This is encouraging. From the Tennessean this morning...

So they would still have to post, to prevent permit holders from carrying into their place. If the whole purpose of this is to prevent forcing the bar or restaurant from having to post so not to scare the tourists, well so much for that.

I agree they claim the issue is so they don't have to post... But I believe the real desire is so that some restaurants don't have to post but all do... They are required to have no firearm signs under current legislation/ordinances right now...

I personally believe this is a small group of vocal restaurant owners who don't want he bad press and lost business because they post, so the solution in their minds is to make everybody post.

Also, if they require all beer permit restaurants to properly post as part of getting their license, nothing will stop Nashville MPD from "spot" inspections at restaurants and then charging those people under the current state law (and what Nashville MPD considers properly posted may very well be something entirely different than we do..)

Keep in mind they can still arrest you, and you'll have to spend $1000's of dollars in legal fees to get yourself cleared.

[JayC]

Completely agree, the problem is that trying to enforce 39-17-1314 is likely to require a lawsuit which may take a significant amount of time.

If the legislature can pass a law removing this possible loophole this session, we should encourage them to do so.

From what little bit of looking up I've done...here is what I've found.

First TN law on this gives different amounts of authority to Class A counties (Counties with no metro government) and Class B counties (counties with a metro government) Incorporated cities and towns.

It appears that in Class A Counties they can only enact restrictions on beer permits as provided in 57-5-105 as backed up in AG opinion 05-024

However in 57-5-106 Class B counties, Incorporated cities and towns can in addition to the restrictions allowed in 57-5-105 may "impose additional restrictions, fixing zones and territories and provide hours of opening and closing and such other rules and regulations as will promote public health, morals and safety as they may by ordinance provide." In AG opinion 06-082 the AG opined that a city could prohibit anyone convicted of DUI from getting a permit or even working in a place that has a beer permit. However they said that if someone had a ABC (liquor) server permit (issued by the state), they could not prevent them from working in a place with a beer permit. It also goes on to list court cases where many local ordnance were upheld upon challenge and one that wasn't.

However I'm not sure if any of the restrictions upheld could possible be in violation of state preemption law like firearms in 39-17-1314.

With all that said...it would seem that Class B counties, incorporated cities and towns do have wide authority to attach restrictions to beer permits. Whether that includes being able to regulate the possession of firearms, in possible violation of 39-17-1314 is to be determined I guess.

[Guest HexHead]

I agree they claim the issue is so they don't have to post... But I believe the real desire is so that some restaurants don't have to post but all do... They are required to have no firearm signs under current legislation/ordinances right now...

I personally believe this is a small group of vocal restaurant owners who don't want he bad press and lost business because they post, so the solution in their minds is to make everybody post.

But I thought Tygard said they didn't want tourists seeing "posted" signs everywhere, making them think Nashville is awash with guns?

As for the "spot checks" you mention, does that mean Metro's thugs will be coming into O'Charley's and patting down customers eating there to check if they're packing?

[JayC]

But I thought Tygard said they didn't want tourists seeing "posted" signs everywhere, making them think Nashville is awash with guns?

As for the "spot checks" you mention, does that mean Metro's thugs will be coming into O'Charley's and patting down customers eating there to check if they're packing?

Well Tygard says a lot of things, but when I was on the phone with him, he clearly indicated he was doing this based on 6 restaurant owners calling him to complain... And that I was the first business owner to contact him in support of hb0962.... That is why I raised the red flag on this and other forums, figured dozens of phone calls against would get his attention.

As far as pat down, I doubt it, but nothing stops them from coming into a restaurant and asking you if you have a HCP... Remember under the law you must prsent it if you do and have a firearm...

Nothing stops the MPD from having special "gun free days" where they run all the licenses plates in a parking lot "looking for stolen cars" and then go inside if anybody comes back with having a HCP and see if they're carrying.

I don't mean to sounds paranoid, but it seems to me the Serpas is about as anti-gun as they come, and given the chance to make some "public" arrests of HCP holders violating the law shortly after it's enacted (and we can all agree he'd get media coverage all over the state) would not be out of character for this guy.

The above parking lot trick has been upheld in other states as not violating the law or consitution, and then going in and asking to see somebodies HCP is perfectly legal under current state law. I'm sure some former LEO's could come up with dozens of different ways they could do this if so tasked by Serpas.

The key here if they are properly posted for whatever reason (keeping in mind that properly is up to the responding officer) then it would be illegal to carry in the restaurant. If this happens in 1 "class b" county it will surly follow suit in the others. And we'll be back to not being able to carry in the vast majority of big city restaurants in a matter of weeks after this bill takes effect.

[Guest flyfishtn]

The key here if they are properly posted for whatever reason (keeping in mind that properly is up to the responding officer) then it would be illegal to carry in the restaurant. If this happens in 1 "class b" county it will surly follow suit in the others. And we'll be back to not being able to carry in the vast majority of big city restaurants in a matter of weeks after this bill takes effect.

The signs do have to follow the TCA format with the exact verbiage, correct?

[Guest HexHead]

The signs do have to follow the TCA format with the exact verbiage, correct?

I'm sure Surpas will have his goons harass you at "no guns ever- free parking always" locations.

[JayC]

The signs do have to follow the TCA format with the exact verbiage, correct?

That appears to be the case, until the ordinance is posted to the internet I'm taking the word of a anti-gun council member that I spoke with.

Keep in mind that what Nashville MPD chooses to consider a "properly" posted sign may be something completely different, and you likely would win in court, but that is after the arrest you, take your handgun and get your HCP revoked and you spend $1000's of dollars in legal fees.

[Defender]

Got an e-mail answer back from Charlie Tygard stating, "Thanks for your comment."

[Guest HexHead]

Got an e-mail answer back from Charlie Tygard stating, "Thanks for your comment."

Yeah me too. Glad to see he's working so hard for us.

[Guest HexHead]

Update.

I just had a nice long conversation with Charlie Tygard. Bottom line is he assured me that the current thinking of the Metro Law Department is that this proposal is illegal and it will be pulled at the next council meeting.

He explained to me his timing of filing the bill now, was to do it while the State legislature was still in session, not to wait a month or so to float it when they were out of session in case they wanted to act on it, ie: bring beer under the State liquor board.

He got a little curt with me when I mentioned I've had about a dozen emails back and forth with the NRA over this and could about guarantee Metro would have an expensive legal battle on their hands if they proceeded.

He's not a gun guy at all and was unaware of the long battle to get where we got yesterday over the years and said he basically filed the motion to get an inevitable dialog started so it could be dealt with quickly.

Again, he assured me he felt confident this would be pulled next week.

[Volzfan]

Good job Hex but I'll believe it when I see it. It's hard to trust someone who is trying to screw us.

[dunndw]

That was going to be my comment Volz...do we really trust the word of a politician. He was willing to take this ball and run with it...I'd bet he's just hedging his bets. IF the law dept say ...humm...don't know if that'll fly or not...I'd bet he'd push for it to happen.

Unless they come out and say don't do it...it's illegal...I bet he'll stay the course and keep trying

[Guest HexHead]

Good job Hex but I'll believe it when I see it. It's hard to trust someone who is trying to screw us.

Charlie remembered me from when I ran for a Metro office several years ago. He sounded sincere with me. He really is clueless about the whole gun issue, just like he's been stating he is and wasn't passionate about the issue one way or another.

He stated to me twice during the conversation that on the advice of the Law Department the bill will be pulled at the next council meeting.

I believe him about that.

btw, he said something about to watch the news tonight, there will something about Sen.Jackson killing this thing.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

SO far this is all I have gotten out of Charlie ....... an email back.

I appreciate your thoughtful, insightful comments

Charlie Tygard

[Guest HexHead]

SO far this is all I have gotten out of Charlie ....... an email back.

I appreciate your thoughtful, insightful comments

Charlie Tygard

That was his response to my email to the Council as well. I ended up speaking with him twice today. The second time he returned my call.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm predicting that "the fix is in" over there, and the local pols in Nashville will "see the light" of the wisdom of our esteemed legislature.

And the Word will go forth unto all the other dominions of the land.

- OS