Should you help someone you shoot?

[Guest cowboy20th]

Ok, just a hypothetical situation here. If you shoot someone in a defensive situation, should you try and help them?

Should you just call 911?

Should you call and try to administer first aid?

If you did such a thing, would the actions be seen by the court as you second guessing yourself, or trying to be a responsible person. (I know this is subjective depending upon the court, but opinions from those in the legal profession might help us clarify this point further.?

In what situations would this action be warranted, if any? i.e. home invasion as opposed to public robbery type of situation.

Obviously if you feel warranted in shooting then your actions after besides calling the police are kind of a moot point. The reason I ask this question is because we all hear the horror stories of people feeling justified and then getting slammed with charges in court later or civil suits. Would your actions after the shooting really effect the possible outcome of such trial?

I know that the likely hood of someone surviving a gunshot from a trained HCP holder is unlikely at best, but you can never tell what could happen in these instances.

[poak]

No matter what, call 911. Even if they're gone, you need the police there ASAP.

[Guest bkelm18]

Call 911 and wait. Don't touch them.

[Mike.357]

yep call the man and wait. Bad enough to have shot someone, well better than being maimed or dead yourself. But sure enough you try to render aid and they die on account of that you are screwed.

Personally I would root for them to bleed out before the cops showed up.

[Machman]

Well.. There is this:

63-6-218. “Good Samaritan Law.†—

(a) This section shall be known and cited as the “Good Samaritan Law.â€

( Any person, including those licensed to practice medicine and surgery and including any person licensed or certified to render service ancillary thereto, or any member of a volunteer first aid, rescue or emergency squad that provides emergency public first aid and rescue services, who in good faith:

(1) Renders emergency care at the scene of an accident, medical emergency and/or disaster, while en route from such scene to a medical facility and while assisting medical personnel at the receiving medical facility, including use of an automated external defibrillator, to the victim or victims thereof without making any direct charge for the emergency care; or

(2) Participates or assists in rendering emergency care, including use of an automated external defibrillator, to persons attending or participating in performances, exhibitions, banquets, sporting events, religious or other gatherings open to the general public, with or without an admission charge, whether or not such emergency care is made available as a service, planned in advance by the promoter of the event and/or any other person or association, shall not be liable to such victims or persons receiving emergency care for any civil damages as a result of any act or omission by such person in rendering the emergency care, or as a result of any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person, except such damages as may result from the gross negligence of the person rendering such emergency care.

© A receiving medical facility shall not be liable for any civil damages as a result of any act or omission on the part of any member of a volunteer first aid, rescue or emergency squad that provides emergency public first aid and rescue services while such person is assisting medical personnel at the receiving medical facility.

(d) If:

(1) A volunteer fire squad is organized by a private company for the protection of the plant and grounds of such company;

(2) Such squad is willing to respond and does respond to calls to provide fire protection for residents living within a six (6) mile radius of the county surrounding such plant; and

(3) The plant is located in a county that does not otherwise provide fire protection to such residents;

then the members of such volunteer fire squad, while providing fire protection within such area outside the plant, shall be liable to suit under the provisions of the Governmental Tort Liability Act, compiled in title 29, chapter 20, part 2.

[Acts 1963, ch. 46, §§ 1, 2; 1976, ch. 551, § 1; T.C.A., § 63-622; Acts 1985, ch. 338, §§ 1-4; 1994, ch. 556, § 1; 1998, ch. 963, § 5; 1999, ch. 488, §§ 1, 2.]

Insofar as it affecting the outcome of a judgment for whether or not it was a legitimate shooting.... Dunno.

If you fall back to the concept that if the situation arises you are shooting to neutralize the immediate threat to your or other person's lives, NOT to kill someone.. If the threat is neutralized and you can then render aid, I can see it actually helping your case, as you were continuing to act with the preservation of life in mind.

And it's a scenario that has happened with a paramedic:

Paramedic shoots, then saves robbery suspect - News Now - The Flint Journal - MLive.com

[TripleDigitRide]

Well, I'd definitely call 911 right away, but I doubt I'd get anywhere near someone I was forced to shoot.

[nightrunner]

9 times out of 10 if you shoot someone and they live, you get sued. ill just call 911 and wait

[Raoul]

When the day comes that I am required to use my weapon, I intend to be the only person left that might need any assistance.

[Machman]

9 times out of 10 if you shoot someone and they live, you get sued. ill just call 911 and wait

Even if they DON'T live, it's highly likely they have family who would sue. If you have to pull the trigger, expect it no matter what.

But that's where 39-11-622 comes in:

39-11-622. Justification for use of force — Exceptions — Immunity from civil liability. —

(a) (1) A person who uses force as permitted in §§ 39-11-611 — 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201, is justified in using such force and is immune from civil liability for the use of such force, unless:

(A) The person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in § 39-11-106 who:

(i) Was acting in the performance of the officer's official duties; and

(ii) Identified the officer in accordance with any applicable law; or

(iii) The person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer; or

( The force used by the person resulted in property damage to or the death or injury of an innocent bystander or other person against whom the force used was not justified.

( The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action brought against the person based upon the person's use of force, if the court finds that the defendant was justified in using such force pursuant to §§ 39-11-611 — 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201.

[Acts 2007, ch. 210, § 3.]

Edited June 1, 2009 by Machman

[Guest bkelm18]

Along with the numerous things that could happen, good or bad, after rendering aid, the person may be down for the count after you shoot them, but he/she might not be out of the fight just yet. When you get close enough to render aid, they might re-engage you.

[Guest HexHead]

I'd make sure their weapon is out of their hand (kick it away), then wait for the cops, err crime historians to show up.

Just make sure you re-holster your weapon before they show up.

[S&WForty]

Along with the numerous things that could happen, good or bad, after rendering aid, the person may be down for the count after you shoot them, but he/she might not be out of the fight just yet. When you get close enough to render aid, they might re-engage you.

As my HCP class instructor told us, if they re-engage you, and you fire again, a witness not close enough to realize what is REALLY going on may think you returned to "finish them off." Nevermind a witness that is simply ignorant. Next time you're out shopping and you marvel at some of society's finest members (yeah, sarcasm), just remember those are all potential witnesses in the event you find yourself in such a situation. That makes me wanna crawl under a rock and stay home...

[Guest cowboy20th]

good points by everyone.

Yea I would personally root for them to bleed out too.. but as we all know the world ain't perfect.

I didn't consider the possibility of them trying to fight back while you were trying to administer first aid. Someone crazy enough to attack someone with a gun or other lethal weapon would be likely to try such a thing. I would if someone shot me then started bringing out the band aids.

I personally think it would help your case though, even if you were untrained to do so.

As far as your actions causing the death, I think that is unrealistic. All you can really do is apply bandage to the wounds, you would not be able to perform surgery, use medications, or anything else like that. Unless of course you shot them in a hospital or close proximity to an ambulance, in any case you would not be the one applying the aid.

[Guest grimel]

I know that the likely hood of someone surviving a gunshot from a trained HCP holder is unlikely at best, but you can never tell what could happen in these instances.

IIRC, 10 of 11 survive in Memphis; 6 of which go home either that day or the next. It is a handgun and the DRT areas are relatively small.

[Guest bkelm18]

I know that the likely hood of someone surviving a gunshot from a trained HCP holder is unlikely at best, but you can never tell what could happen in these instances.

Just out of curiosity, but what do you base this on?

As far as your actions causing the death, I think that is unrealistic. All you can really do is apply bandage to the wounds, you would not be able to perform surgery, use medications, or anything else like that. Unless of course you shot them in a hospital or close proximity to an ambulance, in any case you would not be the one applying the aid.

Unless you are trained to give first aid in a trauma like a gunshot, don't even attempt to apply bandages. Even improperly applied bandages can lead to infection and death. In reality, there are many things you can do beyond applying bandages, but unless you're trained to do them, it will likely just make the wound worse.

Edited June 1, 2009 by bkelm18

[Punisher84]

As my HCP class instructor told us, if they re-engage you, and you fire again, a witness not close enough to realize what is REALLY going on may think you returned to "finish them off." Nevermind a witness that is simply ignorant. Next time you're out shopping and you marvel at some of society's finest members (yeah, sarcasm), just remember those are all potential witnesses in the event you find yourself in such a situation. That makes me wanna crawl under a rock and stay home...

Yup. I bet I know who your HCP Instructor was. Told me the same thing.

[TGO David]

Unless you are trained to give first aid in a trauma like a gunshot, don't even attempt to apply bandages. Even improperly applied bandages can lead to infection and death. In reality, there are many things you can do beyond applying bandages, but unless you're trained to do them, it will likely just make the wound worse.

Um... if it's someone you just shot in self defense I'd leave them alone. But not for any of the reasons you just listed. The resident nurse in my household just read that and rolled her eyes.

1. Infection doesn't set in immediately

2. There are medications for infection to address that problem later

3. The more pressing issue in a GSW is bleeding out. Pressure mitigates that.

So if my buddy gets shot, I'm going to render aid. I'm not going to stand there with my thumb up my butt and tell him "Sorry dude... you know... infections and stuff."

[Guest 70below]

If someone was sufficiently trained and felt comfortable that the individual was incapacitated and no longer a threat, I would recommend aiding them, if they feel comfortable doing so.

I probably would not, simply due to the fact that unless I have proper PPE, the person I may be tending to could have HIV, AIDS, Hepatitis, needles in their pockets, or ? that I could be further placing myself and those I care about at risk.

[Guest bkelm18]

Um... if it's someone you just shot in self defense I'd leave them alone. But not for any of the reasons you just listed. The resident nurse in my household just read that and rolled her eyes. Never said I would help either. You can refer to my other posts where I said not to render aid.

1. Infection doesn't set in immediately. Perhaps you could point me to the part where I said that. My vision isn't that great and I can't find it.

2. There are medications for infection to address that problem later. Yep there sure are!

3. The more pressing issue in a GSW is bleeding out. Pressure mitigates that. You are absolutely correct as usual!

So if my buddy gets shot, I'm going to render aid. I'm not going to stand there with my thumb up my butt and tell him "Sorry dude... you know... infections and stuff." Gosh you are so smart. I would treat him and with my total lack of medical knowledge, he would die instantly from massive infections. I just don't have the restraint you do. However last I checked, this thread was about treating someone you just shot in self defense, not applying first aid to your buddy that you just shot for some reason.

Edited June 1, 2009 by bkelm18

[strickj]

Unless you are trained to give first aid in a trauma like a gunshot, don't even attempt to apply bandages. Even improperly applied bandages can lead to infection and death.

[Dropkick Murphy]

Do you guys remember that big shot out in California where the two gun men had AKs and vests? I know that sounds like a typical day in so cal but there was a particular one where the cops couldn't take them down and they went to a gun shop and borrowed some AR-15s to finally take them out.

Anyway, the last bad guy got shot in the legs and he was just laying there. The officer didn't really try to stop the bleeding or anything, he was just kind of waiting for the ambulance to show up. The officer called for an ambulance for the gunmen twice, but since there were so many other police officers shot the ambulance didn't get there in time and the gunmen died.

That officer got sued by the family of the gunmen because he didn't render aid, and was in and out of court. He was in debt up to his eyeballs with lawyer fees, last I heard from one of my instructors he ended up filing for bankruptcy.

After hearing that story I made up my mind that I would do the best that I could to help, not because I have compassion or feel my conscience would suffer, but because it looks good to a jury, and I don't have money for a lawyer, well not a good one anyway.

Then again, I'm sure I would get sued for using the bad guys favorite t-shirt to stop the bleeding. Meh.

EDIT:

I guess I should have elaborated more on that - yes the department got sued, as well as his supervisors. When I say sued I don't mean he was made to pay damages, I mean he had to go to court to defend himself, and the legal fees is what caused his bankruptcy.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Dropkick Murphy

[Punisher84]

Do you guys remember that big shot out in California where the two gun men had AKs and vests? I know that sounds like a typical day in so cal but there was a particular one where the cops couldn't take them down and they went to a gun shop and borrowed some AR-15s to finally take them out.

Anyway, the last bad guy got shot in the legs and he was just laying there. The officer didn't really try to stop the bleeding or anything, he was just kind of waiting for the ambulance to show up. The officer called for an ambulance for the gunmen twice, but since there were so many other police officers shot the ambulance didn't get there in time and the gunmen died.

That officer got sued by the family of the gunmen because he didn't render aid, and was in and out of court. He was in debt up to his eyeballs with lawyer fees, last I heard from one of my instructors he ended up filing for bankruptcy.

After hearing that story I made up my mind that I would do the best that I could to help, not because I have compassion or feel my conscience would suffer, but because it looks good to a jury, and I don't have money for a lawyer, well not a good one anyway.

Then again, I'm sure I would get sued for using the bad guys favorite t-shirt to stop the bleeding. Meh.

That's messed up. The department didn't get sued??? I'm sure you know better than me working out there, but damn that sounds jacked up.

[Dropkick Murphy]

I guess I should have elaborated more on that - yes the department got sued, as well as his supervisors. When I say sued I don't mean he was made to pay damages, I mean he had to go to court to defend himself, and the legal fees is what caused his bankruptcy.

[Guest cowboy20th]

Yea, that is the kind of stuff we hear about. I am sure the case against the officer was the fact that he is an officer. He is trained in some sort of first aid, and since he simply stood there doing nothing, that is the reason for the suit. Not that I believe that is right, but that was probably the case.

And bkelm18, I don't have any statistics for you, sorry. I don't like them, too misleading and easily altered to fit the situation. Hell 66.3% of them are made up on the spot, including this one.

But from looking at ballistic reports of what the common JHPs do to ballistics gel and other targets, I think my common sense can safely say that a few of those in the general vicinity of vital organs will do the trick.

We train and train about what to do to avoid the situation, diffuse the situation, and if necessary, end the situation with violent means. But I rarely ever hear of anyone talking about how to train for after the situation. Your adrenaline is running, emotions going wild, it would be difficult at best to think about what to do to make a possible legal defense more accepted. So what do our actions need to be after the fact? Of course call for police/911 but what to do in the 20 minutes it takes for them to get there? Would our lack of action or the wrong action cause our legal defensive shooting to become a form of murder or criminal negligence?

[Kegger]

I would treat. But it is my moral, ethical and legal obligation to. If I don't, I can get the crap sued out of me and never be able to practice medicine again.

But hopefully if it comes down to that, my aim was true and my efforts pointless.