Any interest in staging a Pro-Carry protest against a restaurant that bans?

[DaveTN]

I thought it was supposed to be about business owners giving out misleading or wrong information to create an unreasonable fear.

I may be wrong on that also. I thought it was about owners posting their restaurants.

[Fallguy]

And you trust that all your fellow gunowners will follow this rule religiously?

One sip of one drink can get you a DUI. You don't necessarily have to be .08 BAC to go downtown. BAC is only one of several tests an officer may use to determine if you are impaired. You tried your friend's girly-fruity drink, got rear-ended on the way home, cop smelled the fruity drink, you passed the breathalizer but looked suspicious when touching your nose or walking the straight line but turned left instead of right. Far-fetched, right? It happens all the time. Hell, my dad had a brain tumor and lost his right auditory nerve, which sometimes messes with his balance and coordination. He wouldn't be able to pass all the field sobriety tests with or without a drink. But I'm sure all cops would buy his story. My point is that everyone knows that one sip or even one drink can't get you a DUI, right? Wrong. I bet that many will assume that one drink will be negligible and nothing to worry about while carrying.

I guess you may could get a DUI even after one sip, but the odds are pretty long for it.

My point was when you are comparing drinking in the club and then going driving and getting a DUI, that it doesn't fully compare to being armed in the club. That person drinking in the club is not doing anything illegal, even after they leave and start to drive, they may or may not being doing something illegal. But if the armed HCP holder even takes one drink, they are doing something illegal at that moment.

Yes, I do trust the vast majority of HCP holders to not not frink and risk their HCP when in these places.

To be honest...I even do fill that a person can consume when armed and still not be a danger... that is even allowed in some of the states we have talked about. But I know that would never fly in TN, and I would respect the law here. But even for those that don't punish them, not everyone.

[Guest KevinM]

Absolutely. Tennessee does not recognize your 2^nd amendment rights once you leave your property. 97% of the people of Tennessee would be subject to arrest if they carried a gun off their property. That is not a right. Unless you want to try to make the argument that it’s still a right; you just go to jail if you exercise it.

And black people were arrested for trying to eat at white owned establishments. Your point? Just because a govt. is acting in a tyrannical fashion, does not change the nature of a self evident right. 97% of the people would be subject to arrest because our govt has moved towards the direction of FASCISM. You know, like pulling people over and demanding to see ID when they have committed no crime...Control freaks using jackboot tactics to mold the society that they wish to see doesn't change the nature of self evident rights.

[DaveTN]

And black people were arrested for trying to eat at white owned establishments. Your point? Just because a govt. is acting in a tyrannical fashion, does not change the nature of a self evident right. 97% of the people would be subject to arrest because our govt has moved towards the direction of FASCISM. You know, like pulling people over and demanding to see ID when they have committed no crime...Control freaks using jackboot tactics to mold the society that they wish to see doesn't change the nature of self evident rights.

My point is that I was arrested and jailed for no crime other than carrying a gun. I fought the charges based on the fact that I believed I had a right to carry that gun under the second amendment.

I was young and foolish; it cost me thousands of dollars. I am crystal clear that I do not have a right to carry a gun. Now, if you want to wave a flag and make a bunch of noise about what you think the Constitution says; that is your right. But people need to understand the law and understand the Constitution; you obviously don’t understand either.

Slavery isn’t mentioned in the 2<SUP>nd</SUP>; quit grandstanding.

[Guest KevinM]

I understand both quite well, thank you. Again, you are a victim of a tyrannical government. Tyranny in action does not change the nature of a self evident right. I know what the Constitution says, hence why I am able to see what our government has become.

It isn't "grandstanding" to point out what is truth. Yes, I understand men with badges who have never read the Constitution they swore an oath to are terrorizing innocent people.

I understand that quite well.

[strickj]

What were we talking about again?

Maybe the arguments could be placed in there own separate thread in an attempt to keep order to the protest discussion.

Im not about to back track through a hundred someodd post to weed out any details,and im sure allot of others wouldn't also.

[DaveTN]

What were we talking about again?

Maybe the arguments could be placed in there own separate thread in an attempt to keep order to the protest discussion.

Im not about to back track through a hundred someodd post to weed out any details,and im sure allot of others wouldn't also.

Thoughts?

Would I be wrong in assuming that there will be a sticky thread when it is decided when and where the protest will take place?

Am I to understand that we need to quit discussing this?

[strickj]

Im only suggesting this thread be about any protest. Organize,voice concerns,etc,and leaving the debates about other things to another thread.

[deerslayer]

That person drinking in the club is not doing anything illegal, even after they leave and start to drive, they may or may not being doing something illegal. But if the armed HCP holder even takes one drink, they are doing something illegal at that moment.

QUOTE]

That's highly debatable--technically that's true, but in reality, not really. Since you don't necessarily have to blow a .08 to be considered impaired, where do you draw the line? If the illegality of something hinges on the judgment of a cop, then most intelligent people would reason that it's pretty much illegal. The truth is that one drink can get you a DUI. Everyone knows they shouldn't have four drinks and then drive home, but many think it's no big deal. Likewise, many HCP holders will know that they shouldn't have even one drink, but many will think it's no big deal.

[Fallguy]

That person drinking in the club is not doing anything illegal, even after they leave and start to drive, they may or may not being doing something illegal. But if the armed HCP holder even takes one drink, they are doing something illegal at that moment.

QUOTE]

That's highly debatable--technically that's true, but in reality, not really. Since you don't necessarily have to blow a .08 to be considered impaired, where do you draw the line? If the illegality of something hinges on the judgment of a cop, then most intelligent people would reason that it's pretty much illegal. The truth is that one drink can get you a DUI. Everyone knows they shouldn't have four drinks and then drive home, but many think it's no big deal. Likewise, many HCP holders will know that they shouldn't have even one drink, but many will think it's no big deal.

I imagine some have already.....................

Wonder how many people they shot?..................

[rab1961]

count me in!

[DaveTN]

I imagine some have already.....................

Wonder how many people they shot?..................

I can think of a few. How many would I have to post for it to count?

[dunndw]

post 'em up. I want to know how many Tn permit holders illegally carrying while drunk have shot somone.

[Fallguy]

I can think of a few. How many would I have to post for it to count?

[TnEngineer]

It is documented that Mike Chase, the owner of many restaurants in Knoxville has been against this big time. So much so that he has been in concert with a couple of state representatives behind the scenes on killing the bill. I have lived in the Knoxville area for decades and will put him on notice when he posts his stores. I would enjoy staging a peacefull protest in front of his stores.

Stay tuned.

[deerslayer]

I imagine some have already.....................

Wonder how many people they shot?..................

I bet this guy had a permit...

Jury finds Chris Jones guilty of second-degree murder : Local News : Memphis Commercial Appeal

[Punisher84]

I bet this guy had a permit...

Jury finds Chris Jones guilty of second-degree murder : Local News : Memphis Commercial Appeal

Doesn't count! He was a LEO first. Skewed stats skewed stats!!!!

[deerslayer]

Doesn't count! He was a LEO first. Skewed stats skewed stats!!!!

Lots of cops have permits. Either way, it's free ammo for the anit-gun press. "If we cannot trust highly trained law officers commisioned by the state to control their trigger fingers when alcohol is present, how can we trust untrained citizens?" I can hear their BS now.

[Punisher84]

Lots of cops have permits. Either way, it's free ammo for the anit-gun press. "If we cannot trust highly trained law officers commisioned by the state to control their trigger fingers when alcohol is present, how can we trust untrained citizens?" I can hear their BS now.

True that. I actually think the Jones case is why most departments ask their officers to have permits for off-duty carry to avoid being caught up in this sort of thing.

[Guest HexHead]

Problem is that restaurant owners don't want the civil liability should a HCP holder be an ass in their business. Remove that constraint and I doubt that many would bitch about the law.

What if a criminal is the one being an ass and shoots an HCP holder who is unable to defend himself? I don't think the business owners should have ANY relief from liability. If they want to take away our ability to defend ourselves, then the full onus of financial responsibility should fall upon them.

[Guest HexHead]

I think a protest on the sidewalk about the owner posting the place, and interfering with his other customers entry/exit isn't going to win us anything. The sheep will continue to think we're gun nuts, the media will portray us in a negative light and the restaurant owner will just be more convinced he did the right thing.

I think a better solution is to post the name of some target restaurants along with their email address and start a TGO letter writing campaign. There's nothing that will get a business owner's attention more than hundreds of letters from prospective customers telling him to go to hell.

I've already sent a letter to the "contact us" link on Calhoun's (White Bridge Rd) website and to Boscos. In both cases, I've eaten at those restaurants and let them know I nor my party will ever darken their door again. Look at their website if necessary, tell them you were a regular customer and name a dish or two you really enjoyed so it doesn't just seem like a form letter, and tell them you'll be enjoying it somewhere else. I told Calhouns how much I liked their smoked Prime Rib on friday and Sat nights and how my wife and I dined there once or twice a month, but I'd be going across the street to J.Alexanders for prime rib in the future. Few hundred letters like that will get their attention.

[TGO David]

What if a criminal is the one being an ass and shoots an HCP holder who is unable to defend himself? I don't think the business owners should have ANY relief from liability. If they want to take away our ability to defend ourselves, then the full onus of financial responsibility should fall upon them.

You know who benefits from that? It's not the guy who gets shot there in the first place causes that sort of lawsuit.

Either way, it's free ammo for the anit-gun press. "If we cannot trust highly trained law officers commisioned by the state to control their trigger fingers when alcohol is present, how can we trust untrained citizens?" I can hear their BS now.

So when do we stop caring with the anti-gun press and other Liberal hand-wringers think, and start fighting fire with fire? It seems to me that some folks here are paralyzed with the fear that if provoked, the anti-2nd Amendment crowd will start saying anti-2nd Amendment things.

Well that is as certain to happen as the sun is certain to rise tomorrow morning regardless of whether we sit around doing nothing or if we start fighting them with their own tactics.

[deerslayer]

So when do we stop caring with the anti-gun press and other Liberal hand-wringers think, and start fighting fire with fire? It seems to me that some folks here are paralyzed with the fear that if provoked, the anti-2nd Amendment crowd will start saying anti-2nd Amendment things.

As long as the anti-gun press and other liberal hand-wringers have significant influence over those who are in the middle, on the fence, or otherwise don't have a dog in the hunt, I don't think we should stop caring. I'm not worried about anti-2A people saying anti-2A things; I'm worried about those anti-2A things making sense to the sheeple. Some think we should open carry into bars with IPSC race guns and 28 rounds magazines on our belts. Do it, and see where that gets us. I think we should fight, but we should choose our battles wisely. A lot of right-leaning but non-gunowner types are freaked out at the prospect of people being able to legally carry into clubs. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. It matters that our imprudent actions and arrogant demands for the absolute right to carry anywhere, any time may only turn off those who would be otherwise disinterested, and ultimately cost us ground that took a long time and a lot of effort to gain.

[Guest 3pugguy]

No, I certainly would not take part in something like this.

Tennessee recognizes no 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment rights. All we have is privileges that we can buy from the state; I am willing to pay for them and would like to keep them.

We are on the minority side of this. The majoririty of people do not agree with guns & liquor. They agree with the Governor that “It defies common sense”.

Business owners could care less that they lose our business; it would be insignificant.

But if you ask people to take sides the entire HCP carry program is going to be painted as a group that supports “Guns in bars”. Even though we know that is not what this is about I don’t think I saw a news report that did not start with “Guns in bars”.

I do not support guns and liquor. I agree with the Governor that it defies common sense, and I do not want to put my privilege of carrying a firearm at risk.

I support that we should be able to carry and that it should be a recognized right instead of a privilege; but it is not.

I will not take part in this; I do not support it and hope you guys think long and hard about what you are getting ready to do.

I would respectfully disagree with you on your stance. Many here, including me, gave parts of their lives to supporting our way of life, i.e. our rights as citizens. For me, the right to peacefully gather to support or oppose actions - by our government, a business, etc - are one of those precious rights.

In my Navy travels, I remember the pre-port call brief for Mombasa, Kenya, several years ago. It was against the law there to even damage the money, as the country's President's picture was on it and thus, to damage or deface the money (and this was a broad and police intepreted action) was to disrespect the President. So the idea anyone could protest would have gotten you laughed off the earth (another odd law there was you could not take a picture of a Muslim woman). The United Arab Emirates (I was there in 94/95 during their holy month) also had lots of fun little laws to oppress their populace. So, I find our U.S. RIGHTS precious.

I will take my chances and if a protest is organized, will do my best to participate and peacefully, openly, and within the limits of my RIGHTS as a citizen of this great country, join in protest against such ridiculous actions as this recent veto and possible subsequent ban by businesses; the same type of thinking that panders on the worst fears of the "hide in the closet and hope the boogy man goes away crowd".

I fully support your RIGHTS to disagree and so will close by saying again I disagree with you, but hope to do so without being disagreeable to you as a fellow Tennessean and TGO member.

Thanks,

Barry

Edited June 2, 2009 by 3pugguy
correct sentence

[DaveTN]

Many here, including me, gave parts of their lives to supporting our way of life, i.e. our rights as citizens.

I have two honorable discharges and also served my country as a Police Officer. I didn’t do it to protect anyone that thinks they can bully a business owner into their way of thinking. As I said the business owner is the only one with any rights here.

I fear no one; not the government and not the Police. I am a law abiding citizen that wants to be able to carry a gun. A business owner need not fear me. However if he feels it is in the best interest of his employees and his customers; it is not only his right it is his responsibility to act.

I fully support your RIGHTS to disagree and so will close by saying again I disagree with you, but hope to do so without being disagreeable to you as a fellow Tennessean and TGO member.

And I support your right to state your opinion. I knew when I posted my opinion it would not be a popular one; and I am clearly in the minority. I have no animosity towards you because of your opinions; that is what this forum is about. But I would respectfully ask that you do not try to belittle me by implying that those of us that defend the rights of the business owners haven’t served our country or that we fear anything.