Any interest in staging a Pro-Carry protest against a restaurant that bans?

[DaveTN]

So what will?

Getting our legislators to give business owners the same kind of civil protection they attempted (even though it is pretty lame) to give those involved in a self defense shooting.

Posted businesses are not necessarily a bunch of anti-gun people. They are the targets of low life attorneys that don’t care where the pay day comes from as long as it comes. We can only speculate what the outcome would be of a civil suit; it could change with ever case. But insuring business owners that they will not have to pay to defend themselves in a civil suit because you or an armed criminal kills someone simply because it happened on their property would help a lot.

But I can’t see it happening. Most of our legislators are attorneys. They aren’t going to protect the cash cow even though it is innocent.

[Guest jmac]

David - Have you tried to schedule a meeting or call with Andy or Jeremy Feinstone? I only ask because as you said you are a business owner and director of TGO, and a dialogue about the bill's effects and our side of the argument may give a human face and real merit against the fear they have. You may have tried to set this up, and if so, my apologies. I could see a picket eventually but wouldn't it be more productive to exhaust all communication lines first?

[Punisher84]

Getting our legislators to give business owners the same kind of civil protection they attempted (even though it is pretty lame) to give those involved in a self defense shooting.

Posted businesses are not necessarily a bunch of anti-gun people. They are the targets of low life attorneys that don’t care where the pay day comes from as long as it comes. We can only speculate what the outcome would be of a civil suit; it could change with ever case. But insuring business owners that they will not have to pay to defend themselves in a civil suit because you or an armed criminal kills someone simply because it happened on their property would help a lot.

But I can’t see it happening. Most of our legislators are attorneys. They aren’t going to protect the cash cow even though it is innocent.

I agree with that. As I said earlier I respect private enterprise and I look at it as I am assuming a risk if I choose to eat in a place that posts after this bill is passed.

I've never felt that someone else should be responsible for me unless they specifically claim and choose to be for whatever reason.

I just feel that people should be educated about who we really and what we are about. I'm just sick of media bias is really where I come from more than anything.

[Guest nraforlife]

Problem is that restaurant owners don't want the civil liability should a HCP holder be an ass in their business. Remove that constraint and I doubt that many would bitch about the law.

[DaveTN]

I'm just sick of media bias is really where I come from more than anything.

Are you kidding me? If we do this the media is not going to put you, me or David on camera. They are going to pick out the most thuggish looking dirt bag in his wife beater T-shirt and open carrying to put on camera. They are going to let him stumble through some ignorant azz statements about his 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment rights that he clearly does not understand.

[Punisher84]

Are you kidding me? If we do this the media is not going to put you, me or David on camera. They are going to pick out the most thuggish looking dirt bag in his wife beater T-shirt and open carrying to put on camera. They are going to let him stumble through some ignorant azz statements about his 2<SUP>nd</SUP> amendment rights that he clearly does not understand.

No we already told strickj he couldn't come.

[Guest KevinM]

I would be more for a protest of that disgrace Ronal Serpas than of any restaurant.

[dunndw]

The owners want it both ways, they don't want to be responsible if a HCP holder shoots someone, don't know why it would be any different than a lowlife shooting somone but hey...whatever.

They ALSO want to claim they're not responsible for anything that happens to you in their parking lot, business, etc. If you get knifed in their bathroom, they don't want to be held accountable.

I'll say it again...if they post their business then there should be a law that requires them to have security both inside and outside for protection of their clients. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Tim Nunan]

This No Guns = No Money card given to the establishment might achieve the same result without the adverse media pictures that would surely occur from a picket.

No Guns = No Money Cards 25/pk - $3.00 : Ohioans For Concealed Carry Webstore

[BigPoppa]

Quick, random thoughts regarding this proposal:

1) I really do not believe a picket (no matter how well organized, calm, articulate, etc. it might be) is going to produce any positive PR results for pro-restaurant carry supporters. Somehow, someway...it will have the MSM's spin on it because it's "Guns in Bars".

2) I think a boycott, rather than a picket, of certain businesses would be more effective and give the anti 2A groups less propoganda to use against us.

3) I resent the assertion that if you don't support this particular action, then you're "surrendering" altogether.

4) I like the idea of the "No Guns=No Money" cards......calm, articulate, logical. Put the TGO logo on them. I'd buy a volume of them and deposit them at posted businesses and pass them out to HCP students.

5) I support the business owner's right to post, even if I may not agree with it. I don't want this to be percieved as intimidation of a small businessman. IMO, a better answer is simple - they post, I go next door to his competitor to eat, buy, whatever.

6) Write and call your General Assembly members. Ask them to override the veto. More meaningful and effective than 70 seconds on WKRN that will get twisted against us anyway.

My . YMMV.

[threeshot]

I do not believe protesting in front of businesses that post signs banning firearms at their establishments will be received by the public in a positive manner.

First reason is that the business owners have the right to post banning firearms on their property or in their establishment. That is the law.

Second reason is the owner will resent the protest, no matter how peaceful the protest, as hassling their paying patrons and their business. This will make the restaurant/bar owners resentful of HCP holders and will probably lead to them digging in deeper to fight against HCP carrying in their establishments. HCP holders are in the minority when it comes to their paying customers. Remember, it easier to get something you want by using honey than vinegar.

Third, this may be about the liability. To restaurant/bar owners, if someone with a HCP brandishes their gun or uses their gun in a shooting, there is a very high possibility that a lawsuit will be filed against the restaurant (deeper pockets). Therefore, we should be willing to helping them by getting the TN legislator to pass a bill removing the liability.

At least this will take away the liability as an excuse for preventing HCP carrying in their restaurants/bars.

We need the media to help send a positive message to the public and consequently restaurant/bar owners that only the HCP holders will be allowed to carry legally and that the HCP holder must not drink. As of last year, 34 states, including five adjacent to Tennessee, allow handgun carry permit holders to take their guns into establishments that serve alcohol.

I believe education is the key to winning the public opinion.

Maybe stage a rally of education at the legislation plaza in Nashville with Q&A flyers to dispel the media myths.

For those with connections, perhaps we should try to open a dialogue with restaurant/bar owners to see what their concern is. Is it personal bias, the threat of future lawsuits or something else?

[Guest KWW67]

STOP and THINK just a minute. Put your personal feelings down a second. I know this has been beat over time and time again but some of these anti arguments don't hold water. Have you forgot this is not uncharted waters here? This is nothing new. It is just new to us. This has been happening for quite a while now. What about MOST all other states in the union that allow this. We are a minority in the union to prohibit this carry. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but more states allow it than not. Why all of the sudden is the world is coming to an end in Tennessee with quick draw mass shootings, hot tempers and lawsuits flying? I don't believe some states even give the owner a choice to post or not. So we are going a step further. What about the factual scenario that they have no problems, no hundreds of lawsuits, etc. Think about what is being argued and the facts. Not thousands of what ifs. Instead of talking to area law enforcement (who will be biased), talk to the owners of businesses in other states and ask them about these concerns. I would bet there are none and all of the antis are just crying the sky is falling..... Are we saying Tennesseans are less responsible than other states? As a life long, born Tennessean I take extreme offense to that. I respect fully others opinions but it does not need to passed off as fact. And that IS the way I feel.

Edited May 30, 2009 by KWW67

[Guest bkelm18]

Just forget it. I'm pretty discouraged that we have even a fraction of people here who feel like the path of least resistance is the way to go. :-\

The rules of engagement have changed over the past 20 or so years and the Leftist anti-Liberty, anti-Personal Responsibility crowd have been fighting us using completely different, radical tactics. Yet for some reason we seem damned and determined to keep fighting the way we always have.

I bet there had to have been a British commander or two during the Revolutionary War who was a bit pissed at his superiors for insisting that the Red Coats keep lining up in tight, nice, clean formations on the battlefield while the colonists were fighting using guerrilla tactics and handing them their butts. If there was, I'm starting to know how they must have felt.

<-- apparently the new flag of the American gun owner.

You complain of people standing down and not fighting for their rights, yet you just did the same thing. Makes sense.

[Jasongar8]

A lot of you guys are saying that this is a bad idea but I am not hearing any of YOUR ideas besides, "write your reps. and sentators". Even if we change just one customers or business owners mind then it would be a victory in my mind. David if you want me there then I will be there, even if its just us two. :D.

-Jason G

[TripleDigitRide]

I thought this was a simple, Yes or No question.

Yes!

[TGO David]

You complain of people standing down and not fighting for their rights, yet you just did the same thing. Makes sense.

Firstly, bite me. Secondly, I wasn't fighting for my right to stage a protest. That right is one of the few that anyone gives a flying fk about anymore. Infringe on someone's 1st Amendment rights and there is bloody hell to pay. Infringe on someone's 2nd Amendment rights and no one seems to care.

Hell, there is enough disinterest among certain sects of gun owners. We see it all the time, and sadly we even see it here on TGO occasionally. Some gun owners insist that "They" aren't going to ban their guns since their guns are single shot sporting arms, or black powder, or over-under shotguns for hunting. But tactical-style weapons? Sure! Ban them. No one needs to own those types of guns!

No, I'm not giving up on my rights. I'm just not going to pour time and energy into this idea since it seems to be a non-starter. But thanks for jumping in here to criticize!

As for the other things posted... the idea of cards to leave behind seems a bit confusing to me. Is the idea to visit a place, deposit a card and then leave without doing business with them? How many people are really going to take the time to do that?

Or do you leave the card after you've done business with them as sort of a "I'll never be back here again" once they've already got your money?

Maybe I just don't understand the concept here.

[DaveTN]

STOP and THINK just a minute. Put your personal feelings down a second. I know this has been beat over time and time again but some of these anti arguments don't hold water. Have you forgot this is not uncharted waters here? This is nothing new. It is just new to us. This has been happening for quite a while now. What about MOST all other states in the union that allow this. We are a minority in the union to prohibit this carry. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but more states allow it than not. Why all of the sudden is the world is coming to an end in Tennessee with quick draw mass shootings, hot tempers and lawsuits flying? I don't believe some states even give the owner a choice to post or not. So we are going a step further. What about the factual scenario that they have no problems, no hundreds of lawsuits, etc. Think about what is being argued and the facts. Not thousands of what ifs. Instead of talking to area law enforcement (who will be biased), talk to the owners of businesses in other states and ask them about these concerns. I would bet there are none and all of the antis are just crying the sky is falling..... Are we saying Tennesseans are less responsible than other states? As a life long, born Tennessean I take extreme offense to that. I respect fully others opinions but it does not need to passed off as fact. And that IS the way I feel.

This isn’t about whether or not shootings will take place in these businesses. This is about what will happen when they do.

A business owner (especially a large corporation) probably isn’t going to make a decision based on how he feels about guns. He will decide based on what is best for the business and his employees.

All of a sudden we have some experts in here on what is or has happened in civil cases. Are you trying to tell me that when an innocent person is shot to death in a business that the business isn’t sued?

If they are going to be put on trial about whether or not they provided a safe environment for their customers or employees, and they think posting a sign will help them; that is their right.

This isn’t about “Guns in barsâ€. If it were, I agree with what the Governor said; “it defies common senseâ€. Unfortunately the uninformed public has been told that it is.

[Guest KWW67]

Infringe on someone's 1st Amendment rights and there is bloody hell to pay. Infringe on someone's 2nd Amendment rights and no one seems to care.

You are exactly right. You just summed the entire point up.

[Guest KevinM]

A lot of you guys are saying that this is a bad idea but I am not hearing any of YOUR ideas besides, "write your reps. and sentators". Even if we change just one customers or business owners mind then it would be a victory in my mind. David if you want me there then I will be there, even if its just us two. :D.

-Jason G

If anyone deserves protesting it is Chief Serpas. He is an unelected bureaucrat who is abusing his position to LOBBY state government. He should apologize to the general assembly and concentrate on the city's rapes, murders and gang activity...you know ACTUAL CRIMES. If he wants to write policy he should resign as police chief and run for public office.

My opinion...

[DaveTN]

If anyone deserves protesting it is Chief Serpas. He is an unelected bureaucrat who is abusing his position to LOBBY state government. He should apologize to the general assembly and concentrate on the city's rapes, murders and gang activity...you know ACTUAL CRIMES. If he wants to write policy he should resign as police chief and run for public office.

My opinion...

I agree. The thing that pissed me off the most about this was that there were a bunch of cops standing behind the Governor with their arms crossed like they agreed with everything he was saying.

What a load of crap. Most cops (that I know) support citizens being armed. Of course if you try to make it appear (as they did) that this is about guns in bars most (that I know) do not support that.

They put Serpas’s little blurb on there like we GAF what he has to say. Immediately I wondered what political office he has in mind.

[Guest KWW67]

This isn’t about whether or not shootings will take place in these businesses. This is about what will happen when they do.

A business owner (especially a large corporation) probably isn’t going to make a decision based on how he feels about guns. He will decide based on what is best for the business and his employees.

All of a sudden we have some experts in here on what is or has happened in civil cases. Are you trying to tell me that when an innocent person is shot to death in a business that the business isn’t sued?

If they are going to be put on trial about whether or not they provided a safe environment for their customers or employees, and they think posting a sign will help them; that is their right.

This isn’t about “Guns in bars”. If it were, I agree with what the Governor said; “it defies common sense”. Unfortunately the uninformed public has been told that it is.

I am sorry but your response says nothing to address my statement. As a matter of fact, it is very contradicting to say the least. Let's just agree to disagree. I respect your position. Just respect mine. But I still do not understand why Tennessee is visioned as problematic and other areas have not had wide spread incident. If this were a problem it would have been re-addressed by the allowing states to stop it. Facts are facts. And if think this law is going to stop guns from beings carried and used by some hot head, you are just kidding yourself.

Edited May 30, 2009 by KWW67

[TGO David]

One nice footnote in all of this is that local Liberal Moonbat radio host Mary Mancini has picked up on it and given TGO a nice plug on her Blog.

Boscos at Gunpoint LIBERADIO(!)

Thanks for visiting, Mary!

[Punisher84]

Hey Mary! Guess which finger I'm holding up?

[Guest Old goat]

A big part of our arguement for restaurant carry has been "All these other states have this and nothing has happened". All the news reports I've seen that mention this, and there were lots, had nothing else to say about it. But you can bet your arse that if there had been pickets against restaurants that posted in Ga. last year(if thats part of their law) the madia would have been all over it.

The public thinks and and automaticlly sees pickets as intimidation, wheather that is the intent or not.

[TGO David]

A big part of our arguement for restaurant carry has been "All these other states have this and nothing has happened". All the news reports I've seen that mention this, and there were lots, had nothing else to say about it. But you can bet your arse that if there had been pickets against restaurants that posted in Ga. last year(if thats part of their law) the madia would have been all over it.

The public thinks and and automaticlly sees pickets as intimidation, wheather that is the intent or not.

I can't say that I've ever felt intimidated while driving down the street and seeing unions picket or protesters protesting. Their intended goal seemed to be raising awareness. That was my intended goal with the suggestion here.

Clearly it's raised some awareness or the Leftist bloggers wouldn't have already latched onto the story.