What the.......?

[DaveTN]

Our Constitution and our founding fathers have absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

[Urse]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/:eek:

[Guest Boomhower]

Here's a little more on the main topic that was started.....

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/ned070814mc

[fury2neon]

Our Constitution and our founding fathers have absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

Jefferson had a little to do with issue. After studying the Koran he sent several warships to the Mediterranean to show that the brand spanking new US was not a weak babe of a nation and that the Muslim slavers should leave our ships and people alone.

[Urse]

Alrighty then back to the original topic. The bishop's reasons for his suggestion seem to stem from his time in indonesia and the arab world were it is common for Christians and Muslims to both refer to their higher power as Allah. This actually kinda makes sense. Two doctrines but the same "God"

Although this is common in the Arab world I do not see non arab countries embracing the concept. After all why should they change their culture for a non indigenous religion/culture? Good find Boomhower! Thanks.

[fury2neon]

Alrighty then back to the original topic. The bishop's reasons for his suggestion seem to stem from his time in indonesia and the arab world were it is common for Christians and Muslims to both refer to their higher power as Allah. This actually kinda makes sense. Two doctrines but the same "God"

The problem is that it is not the same god. The God of Christians flows back through history through the Israelites and to Abraham. The god of Islam is the Moon god of a Beadowin tribe in central Arabia. Mohamed combined the aspects of the Torah and the worship of this moon god into a new religion he called Islam and he changed the name, well removed the name because Allah just means god. It is because the Torah says that to speak the name of God is blasphemy and is punishable by death. So if you can't name your god, you still have to call them something, so in this case Allah it is.

BTW it is the same reason Christians and Jews do not speak the name of God and in orthodox Christian and Jewish communities even saying God is considered blasphemy.

But back to the Moon god of Arabia, it is not the same God of Abraham. Abraham was from Ur of the Chaldea's and the patron "lord" of Ur was Enlil Sumaria's storm god. At least if Muhammad had wanted to be "historically" accurate he would have picked the storm god of Arabia then there would be some tie to history.

BTW I am not saying that the God of Christian and Jew is the storm god of Sumaria, I am just laying out the historical path that points away form the Moon god of Arabia.

[Guest crytes]

If the muslim god wa a moon god then there is no real common ground whith Christianity as there is evidence that the Christian god can be traced back to ancient sun gods and even jesus's story can be traced on the zodiac. This would make them polor opisites so the vadican should just wipe them out and fix the problem for everyone. Altho genocide for any reason if frowned upon these days. Oh well no easy anser I guess.

Crtytes

[Urse]

What I think may be happening here is the same thing the Catholic Church did to celts and other pagans when they were trying to convert them. Just about every major Christian holiday we celebrate(Christmas, Easter) just happens to fall on the same dates as pagan festivals which predates christianity. The logic was it would be easier to convert the pagans if they could keep their major festivals(times of worship) similar. Maybe the bishop is thinking along similar lines. Instead of worrying about the details(Moon God, Storm God) get the same title and then change the details.

[Rightwinger]

The whole dang world could use a bit of "don't ask don't tell".

I don't care what religon you are, your invited to Grace Baptist if ya want to come Sunday though.

I don't care what you call your God, I hope you have one though.

I don't care if your a homo, do it in your own home and don't tell me I have to like it, I don't judge you, but I think you will be judged by someone.

I don't care if you wish the whole world was Islamic, but if I'm able, I'll shoot you where you stand before you blow me or anyone up.

I don't care if Mexico is riddled with poverty, work to make your nation a place to live in or become an American the legal way if you wish to come here.

I don't care if they are cheaper than American labor, your part of the problem if you hire them. If they are all standing around looking for work here, wouldn't they rather stand around back home?

I care, that's why I don't care!

[Urse]

The whole dang world could use a bit of "don't ask don't tell".

I don't care what religon you are, your invited to Grace Baptist if ya want to come Sunday though.

I don't care what you call your God, I hope you have one though.

I don't care if your a homo, do it in your own home and don't tell me I have to like it, I don't judge you, but I think you will be judged by someone.

I don't care if you wish the whole world was Islamic, but if I'm able, I'll shoot you where you stand before you blow me or anyone up.

I don't care if Mexico is riddled with poverty, work to make your nation a place to live in or become an American the legal way if you wish to come here.

I don't care if they are cheaper than American labor, your part of the problem if you hire them. If they are all standing around looking for work here, wouldn't they rather stand around back home?

I care, that's why I don't care!

Nuff Said!

[The Rabbi]

The problem is that it is not the same god. The God of Christians flows back through history through the Israelites and to Abraham. The god of Islam is the Moon god of a Beadowin tribe in central Arabia. Mohamed combined the aspects of the Torah and the worship of this moon god into a new religion he called Islam and he changed the name, well removed the name because Allah just means god. It is because the Torah says that to speak the name of God is blasphemy and is punishable by death. So if you can't name your god, you still have to call them something, so in this case Allah it is.

BTW it is the same reason Christians and Jews do not speak the name of God and in orthodox Christian and Jewish communities even saying God is considered blasphemy.

But back to the Moon god of Arabia, it is not the same God of Abraham. Abraham was from Ur of the Chaldea's and the patron "lord" of Ur was Enlil Sumaria's storm god. At least if Muhammad had wanted to be "historically" accurate he would have picked the storm god of Arabia then there would be some tie to history.

BTW I am not saying that the God of Christian and Jew is the storm god of Sumaria, I am just laying out the historical path that points away form the Moon god of Arabia.

That is totally lacking in accuracy.

Muslims and Jews worship the same god. The names are even cognate. Muslims and Jews conceive of G-d in the same manner, roughly. Christianity is the odd one out, incorporating some weird tripartite god-head or other.

At the same time, Muslims have some different versions. Thus, Isaac was the one sent off with his mother Sarah while Ishmael and his mother Hagar were left at home. Ishmael was the one nearly sacrificed on the mountain. And then they leave out stuff.

[fury2neon]

That is totally lacking in accuracy.

Muslims and Jews worship the same god. The names are even cognate. Muslims and Jews conceive of G-d in the same manner, roughly. Christianity is the odd one out, incorporating some weird tripartite god-head or other.

At the same time, Muslims have some different versions. Thus, Isaac was the one sent off with his mother Sarah while Ishmael and his mother Hagar were left at home. Ishmael was the one nearly sacrificed on the mountain. And then they leave out stuff.

The addition of the Ishmael into the Muslim faith came after the first time Mohamed was exiled. He started with the moon god of Arabia and added aspects of the Torah to gain the aid of Jewish allies in Medina and later added in the Ishmael spin as he gained followers before he invaded Mecca. The Muslim faith went through a lot of changes during the life of Mohamed.

You are very right that Christianity is kind of the odd faith out. It along with Buddhism piggy back off a previous belief structure rather forming a faith from scratch so to speak.

[Urse]

So you think Michael Vick will ever play in the NFL again?

[fury2neon]

I think Rabbi is speaking more about the fact that Christians worship God as Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Whereby Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same.

Yes, you are probably right I was just jumping off on a tangent...

This is why my wife always gets mad when ever I discuss religion... I can't stay on one topic. The study of religion is a fascinating subject. I try to study everything I can.

On another tangent Islam's history is also a fascinating military/diplomatic study. the way Mohamed was able to conquer large areas with formerly rag tag nomadic groups is just amazing.

[fury2neon]

So you think Michael Vick will ever play in the NFL again?

From what the commissioner was saying that is still a possibility since Vick plead guilty and acted remorseful...

[Mike.357]

Since PacMan got wacked for a season, no convictions, and Chris Henry got eight games for petty ante convictions, Vick will probably get a 4 game suspension and a suspended sentence.

[Urse]

I try to study everything I can.

That my friend is the sign of a wise man. I figured the Vick question may give us a breather for a sec. Then when can get back to dogmatic theology.

[fury2neon]

Since PacMan got wacked for a season, no convictions, and Chris Henry got eight games for petty ante convictions, Vick will probably get a 4 game suspension and a suspended sentence.

I wonder what the league would do if a player actually murdered someone... two season suspension? Maybe?

It seems the player keep acting worse and worse.

I miss Reggie White, he was an all around good guy. And took my two cousins to football camp three summers in a row.

[Marswolf]

Well, this is now a racial issue. Just reinforces the stereotype....

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/22/vick/index.html?eref=rss_us

NAACP official: Vick shouldn't be banned from NFL

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The head of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP said Wednesday that Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has made mistakes but that they should not cost him his football career with the NFL.

NFL star Michael Vick has accepted an offer to plead guilty to conspiracy charges in a dogfighting case.

Vick is expected to plead guilty Monday to federal conspiracy charges in an illegal dogfighting operation.

R.L. White, president of the Atlanta chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said his organization does not condone dogfighting or any other illegal activity, but he told reporters that Vick should be given a chance to redeem himself.

"In some instances, I believe Michael Vick has received more negative press than if he would've killed a human being," White said. "The way he is being persecuted, he wouldn't have been persecuted that much had he killed somebody."

White said he believes Vick will cut a deal rather than roll the dice on a trial and take a chance on being found guilty, but "whatever he's done wrongly, he needs to pay for it.

White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable.

He urged the National Football League, the Atlanta Falcons and Vick's commercial sponsors not to dump the troubled athlete.

"We feel that whatever the courts demand as a punishment for what he has done, once he has paid his debt to society, then he should be treated like any other person in the NFL," White said.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell have said they will not make a decision on Vick's future immediately.

After Vick's indictment last month, Goodell ordered the quarterback not to report to training camp until the league completed its review of the case. The NFL is considering what, if any, sanctions it should impose on Vick.

When Vick appears Monday in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, the details of his plea agreement will be made public. The judge in the case will have the final say over the plea agreement.

The deal, if accepted by the judge, means the 27-year-old football star will avoid more serious charges that would have been considered by a grand jury that convened this week.

Sources close to the case have said federal prosecutors offered to recommend an 18- to 36-month prison sentence for the suspended star quarterback for his alleged role in the dogfighting operation. Vick's attorneys were trying to reduce that to less than a year.

Vick's three co-defendants in the dogfighting case already accepted agreements to plead guilty in exchange for reduced sentences.

Court documents released last week showed that two of Vick's alleged partners said he helped kill dogs that didn't fight well and that the three men "executed approximately eight dogs" in ways that included hanging and drowning.

The dogs were killed because they fared poorly in "testing" sessions in April at Vick's property in Virginia, where the dog fighting venture was based, according to documents released following guilty pleas from two co-defendants -- Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta.

Peace and Phillips pleaded guilty Friday. A third man, Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia, pleaded guilty July 30.

In the court documents, Peace and Phillips said that the money behind the Bad Newz Kennels dogfighting operation came "almost exclusively" from Vick, and they told prosecutors that other accusations in the 18-page indictment are true.

My personal view is that any team or commercial sponsor that pays Vick should be boycotted right after they are soaked with water and electrocuted. Hey, it that wasn't cruel to the dogs, it isn't cruel to do that to them.

[fury2neon]

NAACP official: Vick shouldn't be banned from NFL

Next they will be pushing to have him released for game days...

[The Rabbi]

Talk about thread drift.

Anyway, comparing dog fighting to hunting is nothing less than bizarre. But it reinforces why the civil rights movement has lost the moral legitimacy it once had.

[Marswolf]

But it reinforces why the civil rights movement has lost the moral legitimacy it once had.

I can easily remember the unfair treatment of Blacks just because of their skin color. The civil rights movement was needed and had moral authority. Today, groups like NAACP and Black activists seem more interested in preventing Blacks from being accountable for their actions than insuring equal treatment with the rest of society.

Vick is a thug, regardless of his race. That's why he was charged. If it had been Payton Manning who was involved in dog fighting, he would have been charged just as quickly. Someone who inflicts pain on other defenseless creatures for his own entertainment is scum. I have no use for them and I object to their being allowed to breath the air of decent people.

[Guest Phantom6]

What a waste of talent!

He's sorry- sorry he got caught