Handgun Carry in parks / forests

[Guest SharpDog]

TFALAC sent out an alert a couple of months back about a state bill to allow carry in the cherokee national forest. I was wondering if anyone knew the status of that bill, was it introduced?

I have searched their site: http://www.tfaonline.org/modules.php?name=News&file=categories&op=newindex&catid=2

but I cannot find it. Does anyone know of any other efforts to allow carry in other state or federal lands?

[Guest J.York]

Most National Forests all around the nation allow you to carry; most also allow hunting. National Parks do not and TN State Parks do not, but I have never seen either with metal detectors.

[Marswolf]

Yes, if you have a carry permit, you may generally carry in the National Forests. While this document is for another Forest, the Cherokee National Forest follows these standards.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/gwj/lee/general/firearms.doc

Firearms on the National Forest Land

First, the primary laws governing possession of firearms and other weapons on National Forest are State Laws. These laws were developed by the states following establishment of our Cooperative Wildlife Management Agreements. Most notable of the state laws concerns controlling firearms on the National Forest are "cased gun laws".

Cased Gun Laws: As the name implies, this law requires that all firearms on National Forest be unloaded and kept in a case. Virginia and West Virginia have similar "cased gun laws". In order to allow hunting, these laws make an exception.

Ø It is legal to have loaded firearms on National Forest during the authorized general firearms and muzzle loading gun seasons for bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, or waterfowl. This exception is very specific and applies only during the period when it is legal to take these listed species and doesn't include carrying the loaded weapons in a vehicle.

Ø Because hunting on Sunday is prohibited, carrying a loaded gun on National Forest is not legal on Sunday even if it is the Sunday in the middle of the general firearms deer season.

Ø The second exception to this law allows people with a concealed weapon permit to carry a loaded, concealed, handgun either on their person or in their vehicle while on National Forest. This does not apply if the person is engaged in a primitive weapons season or chase only season.

Ø People hunting with muzzle loading weapons or bow and arrow may not have a modern firearm in their possession regardless of the concealed weapon permit.

Discharging a firearm, crossbow, or bow and arrow in or across a road or within the right-of-way of any road is prohibited by both State and Federal Law.

Any person convicted of a felony may not legally possess firearms on National Forest.

Reckless use or handling firearms: It is a violation of both Federal and State law to handle any firearm in a careless and reckless manner or hunt while under the influence of intoxicants or narcotic drugs.

TARGET SHOOTING - Target shooting is prohibited on the George Washington and Jefferson National Forests by an Order signed in February of 1996. Target shooting on National Forest should be accomplished only at approved ranges.

[shaftbass]

TN State Parks do not

Well that's not necessarially the case if you read the law. There is actually no mention about handgun carry.

39-17-1311.

(a) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any weapon prohibited by § 39-17-1302(a), not used solely for instructional, display or sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in or on the grounds of any public park, playground, civic center or other building facility, area or property owned, used or operated by any municipal, county or state government, or instrumentality thereof, for recreational purposes

So let's look at 39-17-1302

39-17-1302. Prohibited weapons. —

(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs or sells:

(1) An explosive or an explosive weapon;

(2) A device principally designed, made or adapted for delivering or shooting an explosive weapon;

(3) A machine gun;

(4) A short-barrel rifle or shotgun;

(5) A firearm silencer;

(6) Hoax device;

(7) A switchblade knife or knuckles; or

(8) Any other implement for infliction of serious bodily injury or death that has no common lawful purpose.

Nowhere are handguns mentioned at all.

Number 8 is somewhat vague but states "no lawful purpose." A person carrying a handgun with a valid handgun permit for self-defense is doing so with a lawful purpose.

I wonder who started interpreting these laws as "No handgun carry in state parks" causing the rest of us to believe that is true when the law doesn't clearly agree with that.

[Marswolf]

Reef, you are technically correct, but....

All state parks are posted. There is even special allowance in the code to keep them from having to change their no packing signs from the old ones they already have in place. We need to work to do what Virginia did and specifically permit concealed carry in state parks. So far I haven't heard of bloodbaths in Virginia parks since the change.

As I understand it, the intention of the lawmakers was to prevent handgun carry in municipal parks. That's not what the law says, but I think that is likely to be clarified (and changed) in this legislative session. Meantime, municipalities are being advised that they do not have to post. This recently happened in Bristol.

[Guest SharpDog]

From the FAQ on the Cherokeee National Forest website

Are firearms allowed?

Use, possession or transportation of firearms, bow & arrows and other arms or ammunition are prohibited, except during designated hunting seasons. While possessing a firearm for the purpose of hunting you must have a valid state hunting license in your possession for the species you intend to hunt. The firearm possessed must be of the type legal for hunting the species that are in season. Firearms must be unloaded during transport. While camping firearms must remain in camp except during legal hunting hours.

It doesn't mention carry permit holders ... intentionally vague or does it mean what it says? From the replies above I guess I can assume it is intentionally vague.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/cherokee/faq2003/#03

[TGO David]

I'd say that anytime the government leaves a loophole in a law, you can always count on them using that slack to hang you with rather than exonerate you if a situation ever went bad.

I tend to follow J.York's mentality regarding metal detectors in cases like this... but don't take that as any sort of official TGO stance on the subject.

[Marswolf]

Basically, the National Forests generally follow the laws of the state in which the Forest resides with a few exceptions to prevent people from using concealed weapons to hunt with.

The FAQ is not entirely complete. Cherokee does follow state law but they have been known to be a bit unfriendly about it in the northern section. That may be why the exception isn't in the FAQ.

[Guest J.York]

Basically, the National Forests generally follow the laws of the state in which the Forest resides with a few exceptions to prevent people from using concealed weapons to hunt with.

True.

The FAQ is not entirely complete. Cherokee does follow state law but they have been known to be a bit unfriendly about it in the northern section. That may be why the exception isn't in the FAQ.

Also true,

Cherokee is unfriendly anywhere the forest runs close to an unfriendly gun area. Such as the Great Smokey Mtn. Nat. Park, Nantahala and Ocoee River Gorge, like you said in the northern section which is close to ski areas, State Parks, ect. Basically, anywhere the majority drinks Starbucks and wears sandals (no offense to any on this board that might do that ) the security will be tighter.

Cherokee is not anti-gun though. They have hunting, they have several shooting ranges.

The truth is that no one should ever know that you have a gun unless you have to use it; and if that is the case will it matter? You'll be in court regardless.

[Guest J.York]

Reef, you are technically correct, but....

All state parks are posted. quote]

True.

Concealed carry in a TN State Park is generally not a big deal. If you have to use it for defense, then the lawyers will work out the definition of what a prohibited weapon is for you.

Speaking for the Rangers side of it, the majority do not have a problem with it and as long as it stays concealed they don't care, they are especially forgiving if it is in your car, tent, or camper. There are at least two that think otherwise though.

Don't give them a reason to have to search for something illegal.

[shaftbass]

My friend owns land in a state park. When we go in to ride four wheelers on his land, the entrance to the park we use is not much more than a wide horse trail and there are absolutely no signs stating no firearms. What if we wanted to shoot on his land?

It's unclear how these laws work when you are a landowner or are on private property within the state park.

[Marswolf]

Guys, we have a problem.

I was doing some research and came actoss the following Tennessee Code:

Tennessee Code/Title 70 Wildlife Resources/Chapter 4 Miscellaneous Regulations/Part 1 —Hunting and Fishing/70-4-117. Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty. —

70-4-117. Possession of weapons in areas inhabited by big game — Penalty. —

(a) It is unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, shotgun or rifle in, on, or while traversing any refuge, public hunting area or wildlife management area frequented or inhabited by big game, except during specified or lawful open seasons on these areas. Any person violating this section is guilty of hunting big game and shall be punished as provided for in subsections ( and ©.

( (1) A violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor.

(2) It is mandatory upon the court to impose the prison sentence, upon conviction for a second or subsequent offense, and the prison sentence is not subject to suspension.

© In the prosecution of a second or subsequent offense, the indictment or presentment must allege the prior conviction for violating any of the provisions of this section, setting forth the time and place of each such prior conviction. The court shall prohibit such convicted person, either a first or subsequent offender, from hunting, fishing or trapping in this state for a period of one (1) year.

[Acts 1951, ch. 115, §§ 44, 47 (Williams, §§ 5178.73, 5178.76); Acts 1957, ch. 382, § 7; 1957, ch. 384, § 2; 1961, ch. 198, § 3; 1976, ch. 681, § 1; 1982, ch. 701, §§ 4-6; 1982, ch. 738, § 21; T.C.A. (orig. ed.), §§ 51-427, 51-429; Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 113; 1990, ch. 981, § 3.]

The problem is that most of the Cherokee National Forest is in a wildlife management area.

http://www.twraregion4.org/ will get you started on the maps. Here is the map for the North Cherokee Area.

So, except for a few areas it looks like we may not legally carry there, not because of Federal law or Tennessee gun code, but because of the Tennessee wildlife code.

I'd love to be proven wrong. Help!!!

[TGO David]

I don't think you're wrong, Marswolf. I think there are quite a few instances of Tennessee laws that conflict or overlap to the degree that the prosecution would very likely go for the most strict interpretation possible to hang a gun owner out to dry.

No one needs to be under the impression that just because Tennessee is now a Shall Issue state, that it is a gun friendly state. As John Harris of the TFA is often prone to point out, practically the only place that you are not at risk of breaking the law when you carry is on your own private property, permit be damned.

We have a long way to go to make Tennessee's firearms statutes what they ought to be. What our Forefathers intended them to be.

[Guest SharpDog]

SB 0053*

HB 0132

(Full Text) Possession of firearms in wildlife management areas. Allows person with a concealed carry permit to possess a firearm while traversing any public hunting areas, refuges, wildlife management areas, and national forests managed by the state. (S: Finney R.; H: Bell)

Senate Status: Held on Senate clerk's desk.

House Status: House companion bill introduced. (H: Bell)

[Marswolf]

I'll talk to Ron Ramsey about it. But the holdup will be in the house.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

One question! If Im passing through a state park, Chicasaw State Park for example, the Law says I must stop, unload, get through the park, reload, resume carrying.....is this what Im reading? Or am I confused again?

[Guest jackdog]

Anyone know the legality of carrying in the LBL???????

I thought it was a no no, but know I'm confused.

Jackdog

[Marswolf]

http://www.lbl.org/RULESGeneral.html

GENERAL REGULATIONS

1. LBL is one of 300 United Nations Biosphere Reserves, dedicated to natural resource conservation. All regulations protecting our environment are strictly enforced.

2. Motor vehicles are permitted only on legal roads and in the Turkey Bay Off-Highway Vehicle Area. A legal road map is available at any LBL Welcome Center.

3. LBL permits the gathering of mushrooms, nuts, berries and other fruits. All other living plants and wildlife within LBL are protected. Injuring or destroying animal life, except legally taken game and fish, is strictly prohibited.

4. All dogs, cats and other pets must be kept on a leash at all times. The exception is hunting dogs during authorized hunts and field trials. All pets must have current rabies inoculations and have collars identifying the owner's name and address.

5. Possession, transportation or discharge of firearms, air guns, crossbows, bows and arrows or other weapons and explosives, including fireworks, is prohibited except authorized hunting equipment during set hunt dates.

6. Forest Service Law Enforcement Officers at LBL provide assistance to visitors and enforce all laws and regulations.

[Guest jackdog]

Thanks Mars,

Guess I wil not be driving up the trace to pick up I24 any more. What constitution, what 2nd ammendment. This country is 99.6% B.S. Thanks to corrupt and stupid politicians in federal state and local governments.

Jackdog

[Guest Kingfish]

I'll talk to Ron Ramsey about it. But the holdup will be in the house.

Maybe you can get him to write a letter to the AG asking to clarify 39-17-1311

Carry weapons on public parks, playgrounds, civic centers, and other recreational building and grounds

As it says nothing about handguns.

[Marswolf]

As written now, I agree that it does not apply to handguns, but the feeling of the legislators seems to be that this was an oversight. Bristol recently decided they did not have to post in their city parks based on legal advice they have received from the state. I don't know who would win in court.

I think we need to propose legislation to specifically permit concealed carry in city, county and state parks then go to Nashville with a bunch of people who have been accosted in parks. A few women telling how they had to fight off rapists in parks would probably help our cause quite a bit.

[Guest Kingfish]

I agree, but in the mean time, if an AG were to pen an opinion stating the park carry law does not apply to handguns then one of 2 things would happen. We would be allowed to carry in parks by default or the law will be revised one way or another. There is no way anything is going to get done this year...Legislative session is almost over. You know they only meet 90 days out of the year. If someone like Ron Ramsey requested the opinion and requested that opinion be conveyed to all LE departments, then we will be able to protect ourselves until the next legislative session in January.

[Marswolf]

I'll see what I can do. It would probably be better to be told no than wonder about it.

Even if the AG said the law does not automatically exclude guns, the parks would probably just be posted. I'd like to see a law that says they can't post in public parks.

[Guest Kingfish]

I'll see what I can do. It would probably be better to be told no than wonder about it.

Even if the AG said the law does not automatically exclude guns, the parks would probably just be posted. I'd like to see a law that says they can't post in public parks.

Well, with the park carry bill dead now, Marswolf, you think you can get Mr. Ramsey to ask for an AG opinion?

[Marswolf]

I'll see what I can do.