The day after legal restaurant carry

[Guest SUNTZU]

I'm thinking of opening up a deli/grill type of restaurant that caters specifically to HCP holders. Banners, radio spots, etc. No newspaper articles, though, screw them. Employees will be encouraged to talk to customers about their firearms, maybe have a range out back. Have weekly shooting contests for free food. Cater and sponsor range days for kids, range days for cancer, etc. Kalishnikov Cole Slaw, Thompson Tots, KaBoom Poppers. I want a place where I feel welcomed, where I can meet with friends and make new ones, where everybody knows my na-a-ame.

Possible chairs...

[Guest Ravendove]

I'll go ahead and clarify that he wasn't in uniform, nor was he working at the time. In fact, I think he said he'd once worked as loss prevention there but no longer did. He was just shopping, saw me OCing while paying for my groceries, and walked up behind me with a gun pointed at me and reached for mine. He also started yelling. You all have good points but considering the close quarters and the vicinity of innocent bystanders, I decided at the time that putting my hands up was the best and most responsible course of action. It's one thing for me to get shot but I really didn't want anyone else taking a stray. I don't have any doubt I could have taken the guy down but it just wasn't the right way to go about it.

To paint a picture, after he had my firearm and had already pulled out his phone to call in a check on my permit, that's when he said "Oh, by the way, I'm a cop". Those were his exact words. He then tried citing gun laws but I had to correct him on every one. He obviously wasn't current on them.

[Guest SomeGuy]

It amazes me you never pushed such dangerous abuse.

[Motasyco]

I rarely eat in a restaurant if I don't have to but SUNTZU, I'll wait in line to eat at yours.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Discounts for veterans. Thank you for your service, Motasyco. In Knox County alone there are what, roughly 14,000 permit holders? I think it would work. It wouldn't be a cash cow, but it isn't meant to be.

[Fallguy]

I'll go ahead and clarify that he wasn't in uniform, nor was he working at the time. In fact, I think he said he'd once worked as loss prevention there but no longer did. He was just shopping, saw me OCing while paying for my groceries, and walked up behind me with a gun pointed at me and reached for mine. He also started yelling. You all have good points but considering the close quarters and the vicinity of innocent bystanders, I decided at the time that putting my hands up was the best and most responsible course of action. It's one thing for me to get shot but I really didn't want anyone else taking a stray. I don't have any doubt I could have taken the guy down but it just wasn't the right way to go about it.

To paint a picture, after he had my firearm and had already pulled out his phone to call in a check on my permit, that's when he said "Oh, by the way, I'm a cop". Those were his exact words. He then tried citing gun laws but I had to correct him on every one. He obviously wasn't current on them.

Well Jamie?

No uniform, not employed by the store, did not identify himself in anyway when first approaching.......

[Guest Jamie]

Jamie, read the story. The officer was unannounced, this was a man of unknown origin putting that gun there.

I caught Ravendove's clarification/explanation below, and yes, it does sound like the fellow was more idiot than cop.

I'll stick by what I've already said though... and I'll explain that further later on.

Secondly, I never said I would draw the gun. Up that close, first chance I get I am using my hands. I earned my black belt years ago, and frankly, guns are NOT the ideal tool for a fight in close quarters like we are talking.

Speaking as someone who got started in martial arts before you were even born, and who's been shot at a time or two as well, all I can say is... Good Luck.

Regardless, cop or not, doing what was described involves me defending myself. Thankfully, Tennessee law protects citizens who protect themselves from over-acting LEOs. 39-11-611(e)(3)(A and

That law won't do you much good if you're dead or in intensive care though, will it? And it probably won't help much with the civil suit(s) that may come from any potential gunfire that's caused, or the damage it may do.

Also, before we get too hot headed over this, it is worth noting, it was a story by a poster, who never took any follow up. Frankly, I am not treating it as a real incident, but as a what if scenario.

I'm not getting... nor going to get... "hot headed" over this. I'm having a conversation. That's it.

Now, as to a "what if scenario"... think it through a little further.

Someone inside a store - not out in the parking lot, or entering/leaving an exit - approaches you from behind, then sticks what you have to assume is a gun in your back. ( You're left to guess at what it is, since you can't exactly see it from there, huh? )

I don't know about you, but my first thought probably won't be "Bad Guy". It's likely going to be "In-house security". Followed closely by "damn, what an idiot".

The idiot here will be me, of course. For letting someone get into that position without me being aware of it and confronting them before it gets to that point.

From there I'm going to comply with whatever is asked of me until I'm absolutely certain of what I'm dealing with. If it is indeed a BG, it'll not take more than a second to figure out.

Might take a bit longer than that for the police/security to figure that same thing out regarding me, but I'm patient enough to give 'em the chance and not do anything that might lead 'em to the wrong conclusion.

BTW... I find no reason not to believe Ravendove's account, as of yet. I know cops about as dumb and jumpy as the one he's speaking of here.

Usually they end up pushing papers in booking, or something of the like, if they don't learn to calm down and think.

[Guest Jamie]

I'll go ahead and clarify that he wasn't in uniform, nor was he working at the time. In fact, I think he said he'd once worked as loss prevention there but no longer did. He was just shopping, saw me OCing while paying for my groceries, and walked up behind me with a gun pointed at me and reached for mine. He also started yelling. You all have good points but considering the close quarters and the vicinity of innocent bystanders, I decided at the time that putting my hands up was the best and most responsible course of action. It's one thing for me to get shot but I really didn't want anyone else taking a stray. I don't have any doubt I could have taken the guy down but it just wasn't the right way to go about it.

To paint a picture, after he had my firearm and had already pulled out his phone to call in a check on my permit, that's when he said "Oh, by the way, I'm a cop". Those were his exact words. He then tried citing gun laws but I had to correct him on every one. He obviously wasn't current on them.

Thanks for clearing this up, Ravendove.

I think you did indeed get a real idiot, and I still think you made the best choice of your possible options....

... except for not finding the guy's chief or sheriff and telling them exactly what happened.

This kind of stuff does need to be reported and not let go. It's one of the processes that keep bad cops off the streets.

Other than that, you did good.

[Guest Jamie]

Well Jamie?

No uniform, not employed by the store, did not identify himself in anyway when first approaching.......

Jeeze, people... I'm getting there... give me a chance already!

[Fallguy]

Jeeze, people... I'm getting there... give me a chance already!

LOL....didn't mean to rush.

[Guest Jamie]

LOL....didn't mean to rush.

S'alright.... I got there.

I suppose I should'a answered you first, then the rest, but I tend to respond to posts in order, so I don't miss anything.

Did I explain my thinking well enough for you guys, or should I elaborate further?

The gist of my argument is pretty simple though; Be prepared to use patience and caution when O.C.ing, so nobody can turn it around as somehow your fault when some other a**hole goes stupid and literally "jumps the gun".

Edited May 29, 2009 by Jamie
right speling, wrong word.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Can we use the patients as shields?

[Guest Jamie]

Can we use the patients as shields?

If they and their doctor are willing, sure.

[Fallguy]

S'alright.... I got there.

I suppose I should'a answered you first, then the rest, but I tend to respond to posts in order, so I don't miss anything.

Did I explain my thinking well enough for you guys, or should I elaborate further?

The gist of my argument is pretty simple though; Be prepared to use patience and caution when O.C.ing, so nobody can turn it around as somehow your fault when some other a**hole goes stupid and literally "jumps the gun".

I understand....I just usually read all new post in a thread then make any responses.

I understand what you are saying once you have found yourself in such a tactically bad situation. You had either be very fast and very sure of yourself if you try to disarm the person behind you or you'd better just do what he says.

Also I agree OC can/will attract attention, but I think a drawn gun on you when you firearm is holstered and you aren't doing anything else is not justified.

Be well.....

[Guest Jamie]

Also I agree OC can/will attract attention, but I think a drawn gun on you when you firearm is holstered and you aren't doing anything else is not justified.

May be, but it's a potential reality that you have to be willing to accept and deal with if you're going to O.C.

It's also something that one should understand just how badly it can go if not dealt with properly. After all, there are worse things than not winning a gunfight.

[Punisher84]

I think everybody has made good points and Jamie you made some excellent points.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

well honestly... if an ANYONE pulls on me even if its an officer with No uniform that did not identify himself .... They better have their shiet together or they are bought and paid for.

I'll sort it out in court laterand I believe I can articulate why I was in fear of my life and forced to use force..

[mcurrier]

I understand....I just usually read all new post in a thread then make any responses.

That is the proper way to do it after all.

[Guest Jamie]

well honestly... if an ANYONE pulls on me even if its an officer with No uniform that did not identify himself .... They better have their shiet together or they are bought and paid for.

I'll sort it out in court laterand I believe I can articulate why I was in fear of my life and forced to use force..

So how often do you let people creep up behind you, Phil? Especially when you have a gun hanging out in the open?

[Guest Jamie]

That is the proper way to do it after all.

It's one way.

[Guest SomeGuy]

Jamie,

That law won't do you much good if you're dead or in intensive care though, will it? And it probably won't help much with the civil suit(s) that may come from any potential gunfire that's caused, or the damage it may do.

If you live day to day or would not use force to defend yourself for fear of civil suit later, when do you leave your home? Obviously, you have a strawman problem here. If my life is in danger, dealing with a civil suit is not my primary concern. As for dead or an ICU, the point behind using force is to prevent that. I can always pretend to submit and wait a moment for a good opportunity to protect myself.

I cited the law as it provides a protection should you have to defend yourself against a rogue cop.

I don't know about you, but my first thought probably won't be "Bad Guy". It's likely going to be "In-house security".

That may very well be your thought process, which is fine, people are unique, however it is not mine (and frankly, I doubt it is many peoples). Having a gun randomly stuck in my back places the sticker automatically in one category, threat to my life.

As for where the cops end up, they belong in jail if they pull stunts like this. No place else, unless given the death penalty which would also be a fair punishment for such a flagrant abuse and dangerous act.

I do find myself agreeing with you in one part, I would blame myself a bit for not being more alert. Situational awareness is always the key. When I OC, I keep a large zone around me in which I know everything. If I don't feel up to that (ill, tired, whatever) I CC. Of course, this goes into the personal tactics, which is a different thread.

[Guest Jamie]

If you live day to day or would not use force to defend yourself for fear of civil suit later, when do you leave your home? Obviously, you have a strawman problem here. If my life is in danger, dealing with a civil suit is not my primary concern. As for dead or an ICU, the point behind using force is to prevent that.

I think the point you're missing is that the civil suits or the coffin/hospital stay may very well be ruled "Your Own Damn Fault" if you don't take the time or steps to ensure resistance is really necessary.

Remember, we're talking about dealing with a possible over-zealous or under-trained/educated ( for lack of a better term ) L.E.O. here, not necessarily a "rogue" cop. And one that by simply complying with, as Ravendove did, removes any need or justification for using force of any kind. This person can also be dealt with and likely prevented from taking any such action again simply by speaking to the right people after things have settled down.

Believe me, a person pointing a gun at you doesn't automatically give you a reason, right, or need, to resist or use force. Especially if there's any chance at all that you yourself could drastically influence that person's course of action.

I can always pretend to submit and wait a moment for a good opportunity to protect myself.

You can also use that time to figure out if that's really the appropriate action as well. "Are you a cop?" might very well be 4 words that saves you and everybody else a whole lot of grief, you know.

One way or the other, I think that in the situation that RD described, your chosen course of action... at least as you've lead me to believe you'd act... would make things much worse, not better.

You just seem much too quick to want to use your hands or your gun, rather than your brain, to me.

I cited the law as it provides a protection should you have to defend yourself against a rogue cop.

Just what is your definition of a "rogue cop"? How many of 'em do you think are really running loose here in Tennessee? And how many instances of that law actually being used successfully are there on the books, since it was put into place?

I don't know of the first one, and I know a lot of cops, lawyers and judges.

That may very well be your thought process, which is fine, people are unique, however it is not mine (and frankly, I doubt it is many peoples).

I can't answer what's in other people's heads. All I can tell you is my response is one that was put there by training.

Having a gun randomly stuck in my back places the sticker automatically in one category, threat to my life.

It ain't random if you invite it.

And I'm sorry, but until open carry becomes much more prevalent and much more accepted, it does invite, at least to a large degree, all sorts of unpleasant experiences a person's way.

As for where the cops end up, they belong in jail if they pull stunts like this. No place else, unless given the death penalty which would also be a fair punishment for such a flagrant abuse and dangerous act.

Sheesh... Now you're certainly not talking like anybody I'm comfortable with carrying a gun.

I do find myself agreeing with you in one part, I would blame myself a bit for not being more alert. Situational awareness is always the key. When I OC, I keep a large zone around me in which I know everything. If I don't feel up to that (ill, tired, whatever) I CC. Of course, this goes into the personal tactics, which is a different thread.

I can't decide if I'm more happy or worried that we agree on something...

[Guest SomeGuy]

I think the point you're missing is that the civil suits

I think you are missing my point: The civil suit is a non-issue if I am a dead man. First priority: Save my own neck. I would expect that if you had a gun in your back, your first priority is not becoming a dead man, is it not? (I note, how you go about enacting Priority 1 is up to personal judgment.)

You just seem much too quick to want to use your hands or your gun, rather than your brain

You ought to read my posts a little clearer, in my opinion, in such close quarters, the gun is not the ideal tool. In such a fight, I may not even unholster my pistol. Guns are tools, nothing more. If in a fight for my life, I use whatever tool I deem best suited.

It ain't random if you invite it.

Lemme get this straight, you are saying that by open carrying, we invite jack-booted thuggery? What is next, plan to say women deserve to be raped?

Sheesh

What? You don't support punishing rogue cops via the judiciary system as I described?

[Guest Jamie]

I think you are missing my point: The civil suit is a non-issue if I am a dead man. First priority: Save my own neck. I would expect that if you had a gun in your back, your first priority is not becoming a dead man, is it not? (I note, how you go about enacting Priority 1 is up to personal judgment.)

Yes, by all means, make every effort to save your own neck.

Save it from being shot, and save it from having a jury decide that you were needlessly reckless, or committed an action that unnecessarily got someone else killed, if at all possible.

Save it from someone else having a doubt that you really were in danger before you took the action that you did, and deciding that it was your judgment, or lack of it, that escalated the situation to a deadly encounter.

And Remember our friend from this thread, and understand that though it may not be how things should work, it's all too frequently how they really do.

You ought to read my posts a little clearer, in my opinion, in such close quarters, the gun is not the ideal tool. In such a fight, I may not even unholster my pistol. Guns are tools, nothing more. If in a fight for my life, I use whatever tool I deem best suited.

It's not the tool, or even how it's used that I'm questioning; it's your methodology in determining whether or not it should be used that's the issue.

Lemme get this straight, you are saying that by open carrying, we invite jack-booted thuggery?

Nope, I'm saying that by open carry of a weapon we invite an abnormally high amount of scrutiny from people in general and law enforcement in particular, and that we have to expect some of that scrutiny to be carried out in an inappropriate or excessive manner by some people, due to the abnormality of the situation.

In other words, some folks, police included, are gonna get a bit carried away simply because it's not normal to them for a non-criminal, non-LEO to be walking around with a gun right out in plain sight. Remember, most people and quite a large number of LEOs are under the mistaken belief that it's illegal.

What is next, plan to say women deserve to be raped?

Excuse me??? Now you're really off in la-la land if you can equate anything we've been talking about here - or think I can - with rape.

What? You don't support punishing rogue cops via the judiciary system as I described?

Well, I might... if you give me a definition of "rogue cop" that's realistic, and would fit such punishment.

Are we talking about police that go around raping and murdering? Selling drugs to kids? Using their authority for personal gain at the expense of harm to others? If that's it, then probably so.

If simply holding a gun on someone until they're sure the person is no threat, then no. 'Cause I'd have been given the electric chair about a hundred times or so if that were grounds for the death penalty.

Speaking of that, I'd love to see your reaction to experiencing a Felony take-down. 'Cause if you're this wound-up over what Ravendove posted, your head would probably explode over that. Especially if it happens because of a vehicle/personal description, or a mistake in either a license plate number, or other NCIS/TCIS/Local database error.

And yes, that sort of stuff happens. And no, it doesn't usually do any good to try and sue.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Jamie
'cause it's late and I'm tired and can't type properly.

[JayC]

Completely agree... I'm involved in the restaurant business and I can tell you right now, for a family owned business what our regular customers want is top on our mind when making changes that would chase customers off.

The gutlessness of some people.

I have open carried into restaurants (non alcohol serving) before. When the Chattanooga chapter held our monthly meetings, at a restaurant, we mostly open carried. Think about that, a dozen guys walking around, all open carrying (plus other attendees who opted to conceal - their personal choice). For over a year we held meetings at the same place, and not once, ever, was there a problem.

I have personally open carried in multiple other restaurants. Small local shops where the owner knew me, on up to chain restaurants around the state I had never set foot in before. Never once did anything come of it.

After we get this bill, I will OC into places I couldn't before. And for you closet anti's er, restriction lovers, or shall we simply say nay-sayers? (you know who you are) who bray about how it will ruin everything, let me assure you, no problems will occur.

Fallguy, consider your opinion. Economy going down, business in decline, suddenly, the law changes, a change you had been told to be wary of, and day one you have 50 guys eating and buying stuff. They eat, they are friendly, they cause no trouble. They just so happen to be carrying guns. Openly. At first, you are apprehensive, but you do nothing. In the end, they eat, pay, and leave. No bad interactions anywhere occur.

Now, as the manager, how do you evaluate this encounter?

1) Ask yourself, if the law had not changed, would I have gotten the business?

2) If we had posted signs, would we have lost this new business?

3) Isn't it nice to have gotten that business I probably would not have otherwise gotten?

4) Maybe those gun owners aren't so bad after all!

As you can see, open carrying, en mass, on the first day could be a great way to further concrete positive feelings from those who may be a bit ambivalent towards us. Later, those who were once scared can look back on past interactions and say to themselves "Lets remove restrictions on those gun owners, they are OK guys!" By open carrying and being our usual upstanding selves we can alter the false perceptions held about us, and whittle away support for restrictions. If the law changes and restaurant owners/managers see gun owners materialize in numbers, open carrying, we can change the entire picture. Where instead we would be feared, we can become welcomed. All it takes is a little backbone.

Every decent man needs to open carry. People see guns carried by bad guys all the time on TV, we need real life examples to counter the popular image of us as bad people. Let people equate gun owner/carrier with good guy, and we will be able to win future fights we would not dream of today.