The day after legal restaurant carry

[GLOCKMEISTER]

just speaking the truth, name an incident involving a buisness that we've talked about or thats happened that wasn't initiated by open carrying?

Hey to each his/her own, but you have to admit that if there is an issue that arises this will probably be the reason why.

[Fallguy]

Although I'm very pro-OC, I have to agree in so far as a mass amount of people OCing on the first day of legal restaurant carry may not be the best statement to make.

[dralarms]

Although I'm very pro-OC, I have to agree in so far as a mass amount of people OCing on the first day of legal restaurant carry may not be the best statement to make.

While I don't OC, I do OWB carry. Some times it becomes exposed. I do however try to get a table or booth where I can sit and my holster not been seen (yes I do where my holster even if I have left the gun in the truck).

I'm thinking on June 1st I'll get out my big shiney Para Ord. 14.45 LDA in all stainless and OC it into Outbacks.

Just kidding, but you know someone is gonna try it.

[Guest unreconstructed1]

just speaking the truth, name an incident involving a buisness that we've talked about or thats happened that wasn't initiated by open carrying?

Hey to each his/her own, but you have to admit that if there is an issue that arises this will probably be the reason why.

I completely understand and agree that OC may not be appropriate for every situation. The fact is however, that many believe that OC is as ignorant as the little HCP badges that mall ninjas wear.

while I agree that OC probably isn't a good idea on "opening day", so to speak, I believe that OC is actually quite a positive thing overall.

my remark was simply in response to what seems to be the general consensus of

"as long as we can exercise our constitutional rights in complete secrecy, maybe no one will realize that we have them, and then we can keep them"

[Guest SomeGuy]

The gutlessness of some people.

I have open carried into restaurants (non alcohol serving) before. When the Chattanooga chapter held our monthly meetings, at a restaurant, we mostly open carried. Think about that, a dozen guys walking around, all open carrying (plus other attendees who opted to conceal - their personal choice). For over a year we held meetings at the same place, and not once, ever, was there a problem.

I have personally open carried in multiple other restaurants. Small local shops where the owner knew me, on up to chain restaurants around the state I had never set foot in before. Never once did anything come of it.

After we get this bill, I will OC into places I couldn't before. And for you closet anti's er, restriction lovers, or shall we simply say nay-sayers? (you know who you are) who bray about how it will ruin everything, let me assure you, no problems will occur.

Fallguy, consider your opinion. Economy going down, business in decline, suddenly, the law changes, a change you had been told to be wary of, and day one you have 50 guys eating and buying stuff. They eat, they are friendly, they cause no trouble. They just so happen to be carrying guns. Openly. At first, you are apprehensive, but you do nothing. In the end, they eat, pay, and leave. No bad interactions anywhere occur.

Now, as the manager, how do you evaluate this encounter?

1) Ask yourself, if the law had not changed, would I have gotten the business?

2) If we had posted signs, would we have lost this new business?

3) Isn't it nice to have gotten that business I probably would not have otherwise gotten?

4) Maybe those gun owners aren't so bad after all!

As you can see, open carrying, en mass, on the first day could be a great way to further concrete positive feelings from those who may be a bit ambivalent towards us. Later, those who were once scared can look back on past interactions and say to themselves "Lets remove restrictions on those gun owners, they are OK guys!" By open carrying and being our usual upstanding selves we can alter the false perceptions held about us, and whittle away support for restrictions. If the law changes and restaurant owners/managers see gun owners materialize in numbers, open carrying, we can change the entire picture. Where instead we would be feared, we can become welcomed. All it takes is a little backbone.

Every decent man needs to open carry. People see guns carried by bad guys all the time on TV, we need real life examples to counter the popular image of us as bad people. Let people equate gun owner/carrier with good guy, and we will be able to win future fights we would not dream of today.

Edited May 26, 2009 by SomeGuy

[Guest m&pc9]

The gutlessness of some people.

I have open carried into restaurants (non alcohol serving) before. When the Chattanooga chapter held our monthly meetings, at a restaurant, we mostly open carried. Think about that, a dozen guys walking around, all open carrying (plus other attendees who opted to conceal - their personal choice). For over a year we held meetings at the same place, and not once, ever, was there a problem.

I have personally open carried in multiple other restaurants. Small local shops where the owner knew me, on up to chain restaurants around the state I had never set foot in before. Never once did anything come of it.

After we get this bill, I will OC into places I couldn't before. And for you closet anti's er, restriction lovers, or shall we simply say nay-sayers? (you know who you are) who bray about how it will ruin everything, let me assure you, no problems will occur.

Fallguy, consider your opinion. Economy going down, business in decline, suddenly, the law changes, a change you had been told to be wary of, and day one you have 50 guys eating and buying stuff. They eat, they are friendly, they cause no trouble. They just so happen to be carrying guns. Openly. At first, you are apprehensive, but you do nothing. In the end, they eat, pay, and leave. No bad interactions anywhere occur.

Now, as the manager, how do you evaluate this encounter?

1) Ask yourself, if the law had not changed, would I have gotten the business?

2) If we had posted signs, would we have lost this new business?

3) Isn't it nice to have gotten that business I probably would not have otherwise gotten?

4) Maybe those gun owners aren't so bad after all!

As you can see, open carrying, en mass, on the first day could be a great way to further concrete positive feelings from those who may be a bit ambivalent towards us. Later, those who were once scared can look back on past interactions and say to themselves "Lets remove restrictions on those gun owners, they are OK guys!" By open carrying and being our usual upstanding selves we can alter the false perceptions held about us, and whittle away support for restrictions. If the law changes and restaurant owners/managers see gun owners materialize in numbers, open carrying, we can change the entire picture. Where instead we would be feared, we can become welcomed. All it takes is a little backbone.

Every decent man needs to open carry. People see guns carried by bad guys all the time on TV, we need real life examples to counter the popular image of us as bad people. Let people equate gun owner/carrier with good guy, and we will be able to win future fights we would not dream of today.

I can see this going the wrong way also. The restaurant is full of antis and they complain to the manager "I wont be back unless you post no guns". So there are 5 people with guns, and 20 without complaining.

I think out of mind is the best way to deal with it.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

The gutlessness of some people.

No its called having just a little common sense. Some guys just don't have any.

You say you have open carried everywhere... yada, yada, yada... with no problem... yada, yada, yada... But evidence here on this board suggest that not everyone shares your experience. How many posters have started threads talking about "Look what happened to me"... and all the problems consistently related to each of those posters were present because they were open carrying.

I don't remember one of those threads being started by some one that was CCing.

So its just statistics that say its probably not a good idea. But hey its your right, exercise it how you see fit. I'm just not going to be in a position of being at a tactical disadvantage but thats a whole different thread. When you open carry I wonder how many times some guy thought you were a cop and spit in your food... I'm just saying.

All in all nothing should change, gunowners/hcp will frequent the same businesses they always did exercising their human nature of likes and dislikes... now some will be armed.

So again nothing should change unless its changed by someone acting in an irresponsible manner.

[Guest crotalus01]

Your disdain for OCers is well documented here Glockmeister, but there is no need to be a jerk and call OCers yahoos and irresponsible. I also routinely OC in non-serving restaraunts and have never had a problem.

Personally, I do not plan to OC on June 1st as I want to give it a month or so to sink in that HCP holders are not spilling blood will-nilly in all the "bars", but I will eventually.

You are not going to be at a tactical disadvantage - good for you. I am not going to advertise myself as a potential victim by hiding my teeth.

Edit to add to the OP, we're not going to see many posted locations - look at all the other states that legalized carry in serving restaraunts. I know of virtually no eateries that post in MS where restaraunt carry is legal.

Edited May 26, 2009 by crotalus01
Add reply to OP

[Guest bluecanary25]

Someguy,

While I have proven myself not to be the brightest, I agree with you.

I OC frequently while shopping or dining. I have my HCP. OC is legal.

Why should I hide my gun like a criminal?? Should I be ashamed of having a HCP?

In the past year, meeting at Shoney's, many OC'd, there was never any problems. Our Nashville meeting just changed locations to Golden Corral. The first meeting there had many OC members. No panic attacks were observed....

Edited May 26, 2009 by bluecanary25
cuz I can..

[Fallguy]

To be honest, I don't see a sudden, large increase in business at restaurants that serve alcohol after June 1.

First as has been said HCP holders are only 3% of the population. Out of that 3% I would guess only half or less even carry on a regular basis, so let's say 1.5% of the population. Out of that 1.5% probably 20% (.3% of the population) or less have not gone to these restaurants because they could not carry. (Most just leave their handgun in the car or at home and go anyway)

So only that about .3% of the population may have a new opportunity. For the rest of us it just means we don't have to leave our handgun in the car to go into places we have already been going.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Your disdain for OCers is well documented here Glockmeister, but there is no need to be a jerk and call OCers yahoos and irresponsible. I also routinely OC in non-serving restaraunts and have never had a problem.

Personally, I do not plan to OC on June 1st as I want to give it a month or so to sink in that HCP holders are not spilling blood will-nilly in all the "bars", but I will eventually.

You are not going to be at a tactical disadvantage - good for you. I am not going to advertise myself as a potential victim by hiding my teeth.

Edit to add to the OP, we're not going to see many posted locations - look at all the other states that legalized carry in serving restaraunts. I know of virtually no eateries that post in MS where restaraunt carry is legal.

I think your a little quick to point a finger and call someone a jerk when they are defending a "gutless" comment.

My opinion on open carry is just that my opinion and my choice, I dont think that means im a jerk. But I dont think It should be implied Im "gutless" because I dont agree with some guys opinions. Others shouldnt be lumped in with closet anti's er, restriction lovers, or shall we simply say nay-sayers just because they think OCing is a bad idea either. It simply wasnt a fair statement. So honestly I could care less if people oc until it starts effecting me.

I never lumped all open carriers into the term "yahoos" thus the reason I said "some".

Your post in itself shows you are responsible by waiting a few months before you go into a place with it open. But you have to admit, not everyone is as patient as you. There will be some guys that will strap on a 7.5 in Ruger in a cowboy rig and go up to some bar somewhere and order a coke just because they can. They will do it just for the attention. Thats what I meant as irresponsible. Those of us that have been trying to get these HCP laws changed for years just hate to see an "I told ya so"... right out of the gate. Thats all I meant.

[Guest HexHead]

I don't remember one of those threads being started by some one that was CCing.

Not to belittle your point, but wasn't that guy asked to leave the Kroger in Antioch after he inadvertently showed his pistol under his shirt?

[Guest MediaBuster]

Open carrying is not right in every situation. For one thing it puts you at a tactical disadvantage in a leisure environment, unless you want to have your head on a swivel all day. For instance, one of my carry pistols is worth about $700 bucks.. Would you sit at a restaurant with $700 in cash exposed & clipped onto your belt? -OR- If someone IS planning to do something bad, who do you think they will want to shoot first?

The reason Police Open Carry, is that while they are on the job, the quicker access to their weapon gives them an improved tactical advantage. The risk for them is mitigated a bit by the fact that when they are at work, they are supposed to be aware & watching others at all times, including being aware of guarding their sidearm in tight quarters. Is that what you really want your restaurant eating experience with your family to be like? If you do, go for it.. It's within your right. I don't however see how you would be doing yourself any favors.

I carry a Kel-Tec P3-AT most of the time in my pocket.. Nobody but me knows its there, & if a bad guy starts shooting people in a restaurant that I'm in, he would likely be in for a surprise if he didn't get me first.

My Opinion is "in part" based on my training via Suarez International USA, Inc.

Make your firearm your secret asset for tactical reasons. Consider saving the ideological reasons for open carrying as an epitaph for your headstone..

P.S. Please, no lame arguments about how a .380 is too small for self defense.. A few well placed shots will ruin anyone's day, & send them scurrying if not crumpling onto the floor. Carry what makes sense for the situation, & you'll enjoy your life more. Remember, even the real Officer Tackleberry died young, from a heart attack.. Don't be a Tackleberry!

Edited May 26, 2009 by MediaBuster

[Guest SomeGuy]

pc9,

I can see where you are thinking, however I have not experienced this. Perhaps in the most liberal enclaves in this state, but your fears are unfounded. It just does not happen that way.

So its just statistics that say its probably not a good idea.

OK Glock, point me to the statistics. You said statistics shows it, now show me. Or perhaps you meant hear-say, and anecdotes?

We both know no such real statistic that isn't an utter fabrication exists. Want to backtrack and acknowledge that like Sarah Brady, you say what you feel, even with no proof to support a personal agenda? I will grant you, the argument over the tactics of open vs concealed is a different matter, though I would wager we can both agree both have pros and cons. (My long-standing position is do what you determine fits you best in regards to how you personally carry.)

Lastly, you entirely missed the points I was making with the gutless, and reference towards nay-saying antis. In every thread, you, and a select few others can be counted on to routinely cry out that we should give in, accept half the pie, even after being shown with the restaurant carry we can get much more. I have seen cheerleaders with more testicular fortitude than some purported gun owners here. This is why I question which side some posters are on. Check out the park carry thread where one of the nay-sayers is bleating about accepting it as is, out of fear we will lose.

Fallguy, while I think you are right regarding the sheer numbers, I think you miss my point. Open carriers showing up, and breaking the myth about them, eating, being friendly, and causing no trouble can dispel the rumors and lies about us all. Furthermore, even if it increases business by a mere .3%, what business owner will complain, especially given these times? While large numbers can be impressive, they say it is the little things that make up life. Little bits of goodwill, and a little change of opinion there, and we can move a long way.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Not to belittle your point, but wasn't that guy asked to leave the Kroger in Antioch after he inadvertently showed his pistol under his shirt?

right you are but the key word there is inadvertently

[Guest Ravendove]

Honestly, I can't imagine a lot of places will be posting. Some, probably, but I will probably avoid those places when they do unless it's somewhere I or the wife really wants to go.

On the subject of open carry, I used to. It wasn't to look cool or get attention and I was totally aware that my tactical situation probably could have been better had I been CCing. My sincere hope was that by being the gentleman that I usually am, friendly, helpful, and honest, I could help move people away from the general thought process of "gun's are bad". I did notice that I changed a lot of minds. I also noticed that some people would start a verbal argument with a complete stranger over it. I no longer OC because an off-duty cop who proved himself over the course of the next five minutes not to know anything about HCP laws pulled a gun on me in a grocery store and I don't feel like putting myself in that situation again. Oh yeah, dangerous guy paying for his box of wild cherry Pepsi at the self check out.

Anyway, I do agree that some people open carry for the wrong reasons and probably some in the wrong way. I don't think it should be completely condemed for that reason. As for keeping my head on a swivel at all times, I try to do that anyway because if I make it a habit, it will be easier to do when the situation calls for it.

Oh, and I know that O'Charleys will be seeing at least a little extra business on LC-Day. I will be going there and carrying as a celebration of finally obtaining this right, that which should have been ours all along.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

OK Glock, point me to the statistics. You said statistics shows it, now show me. Or perhaps you meant hear-say, and anecdotes?

We both know no such real statistic that isn't an utter fabrication exists. Want to backtrack and acknowledge that like Sarah Brady, you say what you feel, even with no proof to support a personal agenda?

Lastly, you entirely missed the points I was making with the gutless, and reference towards nay-saying antis. In every thread, you, and a select few others can be counted on to routinely cry out that we should give in, accept half the pie, even after being shown with the restaurant carry we can get much more. I have seen cheerleaders with more testicular fortitude than some purported gun owners here. This is why I question which side some posters are on. Check out the park carry thread where one of the nay-sayers is bleating about accepting it as is, out of fear we will lose.

I have to respond to this then I'm out...

1st off please read my statements again, When I said the statistics I was referring to my comment "evidence here on this board" ... and honestly thats probably not just only the most accurate but the most statistical out there. See TGO happens to be the place where most internet savy permit holders in TN go searching for for their HCP information and to bond with other TN HCP holders... look at the number of posters... thus the reason we have shared that information here several times in "Look at what happened to me" threads. So wanna know.. go do a search here on this board and you will find the answer... grasshopper.

Also please never use Brady Biatch while describing anything I say or do, remember if you can't/won't say something to someones face it probably shouldn't be said.

Personal agenda... please explain, and please back it up with factual proof.

I think if you read the posts above the one where you jumped the gun you see my point was proven, others here understood.. you should have also?

Now on the gutless, yea I got it exactly the way you posted it and reposted it. FWIW there are lots of people that have been disappointed over the years. Over the last 15 years I have called, talked, and met with legislators until I was blue in the face... and honestly like others out there finally threw up my hands and face the fact that until we had a new speaker we were fighting an unwinable battle. This year is the first time we had a real chance in getting what we wanted. You have to realize when you haven't had any pie in 10 years it hard to turn down 3/4 of a whole pie when you know that 1/2 that pie will fill you up. Btw over the years we have gladly taken a mere slice of pie knowing we would get a biggie piece in the next legislative session.

So sure I was cautious, but when John thought we could realistically get it all I was all in and good to go. I trust his judgment, no one knows who you are. You forget there were lots of us in this industry that were fighting this fight when you were 11 years old when your only dreams were about your own testicular fortitude.

In short I don't know when or where this burr in you saddle toward me has come from. If I have wronged you somehow please PM me so I can make it right. If not please stop the personal attacks so we can put all this behind us and enjoy June 1st.

Edited May 26, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Guest benchpresspower]

I guess it is safe to say while we are here on this board thinking out how we plan to act there are the others on the opposite side of the fence who are planning the same. I've got no issues with open carry or concealed carry. Like some have said on here it is choice but sometimes it depends on the situation.

Figure, someone walks into the local Chili's open carrying and someone decides they want to stir up a stink and make a scene saying things like "Why do you have to carry a gun?" "You think you're a tough guy?" blah blah blah so not only are other people uncomfortable so is the person carrying. You've got your "yayhoos" who won't know how to keep their mouths shut and decide to throw their anti-gun views your way. God knows that they have had a field day with this bill.

[Guest benchpresspower]

Slightly OT...

One place that I already don't like and don't want to go to any more is Buffalo WIld Wings. First, their food sucks, second, they are expensive, and third, the have a sign on the door stating something to the effect of "We ban guns on these premises." Until this new law goes into effect, they have no reason to post because they have that huge bar in the back!

Anytime I see the term "ban" near the word "guns" it gets my blood pressure up. I wonder what kind of liberal pansy owns that chain anyways.

There is a new one being built not even a mile from where I live. I was wondering what their stance was, guess now I know.

[Mike.357]

You all can say what you want. There is a time and a place for everything, but rarely is every place time for everything.

There is nothing to be gained by going to Applebee's strapped and OCing. There is something to be lost.

I believe OC brings attention to ones self. I do not really care to draw attention to myself. I dunno why but I tend to not blend in anyway.

Going shooting, or on my property or a like minded persons property I am all about OCing. It is more comfortable, the gun is easier to get to , all that jazz.

But out and about is not the time or the place. Really its not. if that makes me a Sarah Brady then so be it.

[bubbiesdad]

You all can say what you want. There is a time and a place for everything, but rarely is every place time for everything.

There is nothing to be gained by going to Applebee's strapped and OCing. There is something to be lost.

I believe OC brings attention to ones self. I do not really care to draw attention to myself. I dunno why but I tend to not blend in anyway.

Going shooting, or on my property or a like minded persons property I am all about OCing. It is more comfortable, the gun is easier to get to , all that jazz.

But out and about is not the time or the place. Really its not. if that makes me a Sarah Brady then so be it.

:clap:Well said.

[Fallguy]

You all can say what you want. There is a time and a place for everything, but rarely is every place time for everything.

There is nothing to be gained by going to Applebee's strapped and OCing. There is something to be lost.

I believe OC brings attention to ones self. I do not really care to draw attention to myself. I dunno why but I tend to not blend in anyway.

Going shooting, or on my property or a like minded persons property I am all about OCing. It is more comfortable, the gun is easier to get to , all that jazz.

But out and about is not the time or the place. Really its not. if that makes me a Sarah Brady then so be it.

While I wouldn't say "nothing" on Applebee's.....I pretty much agree.

That in one I reason I don't really OC, it bring attention, but....attention can be good. If the person OCing is a good ambassador for carry, it can educate others and help dispel "all peoples with guns are bad" idea.

But I'm still not sure if June 1 is the day to draw attention to carry in places that serve alcohol.

[Guest cowboy20th]

I understand why OC is a good idea, and I agree if OC brings people around to the realization that gun owners and HCP holders are good people than let me go get a new holster. But people just are not that smart to listen to your reason all the time. Not all, but alot of people who feel strongly enough to approach someone in public about a political issue probably aren't exactly on our side anyway, and it would simply be alot like masterbaution without the payoff. Besides that I know if I were in a hurry or the sixteenth person came up to me that day asking about my weapon I would probably go nuts answering the same questions day after day. So OC is not for me, but for those that feel confident enough in their debating abilities and have the patience to put up with the public on their free time then I salute you guys and gals.

And yea OC on the first will cause alot of attention to be drawn to you, hopefully it won't be negative, but you can't predict people.

Oh yea, and there is always at least one drunk moron in a place that serves alcochol I personally would hate to be the guy he picks to screw with because I was OC and he wants to take on a guy with a gun.

[mrmoetn]

I don't think we'll have many restaurants post against carry either. What I think we may see is some restaurant put up signs that are not "properly posted". What bothers me about that is, depending on the cop, if they are called, you could end up in the back of the car with your gun confiscated. (The attorney will probably cost you more than the gun did to prove that they were wrong!) With all of the stories about LEOs not knowing the HCP laws, this could easily happen.

I think we need to draft a form letter that we can mail to the restaurants that display a, legal or not, sign to tell them that we are disappointed in their decision and our family of five (or however many) will not patronize their business because of that decision.

It's amazing how much a well written letter gets done!

(Bold Added)

Sorry guys, I know I'm in on this discussion late but can someone explain "properly posted"? I don't think I really understand that. 39-17-1359 uses language like "substantially similar". I don't think I've ever seen a REAL sign as prescribed by this statute, with the exception of the airports in Nash and Mem. Asking for clarification not stirring the pot.

[Guest 270win]

I often travel to states where it is legal to carry in places where alcohol is served. I have never seen such signs LEGALLY prohibiting carry (if a state has such signs) in restaurants and/or bars. Once the media hype ends, people will go on as usual.

Most people have no idea how to even get a handgun carry permit or where it is legal/illegal to carry a handgun no matter what state. We have to remember that most people own guns, especially for home and business protection or when traveling, but few carry in public on their person.