School Property

[Guest WingedWarrior]

I'm seeing conflicting information on this. There is some legal language talking about non-student adults and possession of firearms on school property. Can teachers or other staff members legally have firearms in their parked vehicles while they're working in the school?

[Fallguy]

As you said the language seems conflicting for sure confusing.

IMO, I think they can, but others think not and others are not sure and I can't argue against either of them.

There is a bill in the legislature (HB1806/SB1622) to clarify this, however due to Rep West health it has been deferred to next year.

[K191145]

The way I've always understood this was that permit holders could have their gun on school property as long as they are picking their kids up, short stay, and keep it in the car. Something to that effect.

[Fallguy]

The way I've always understood this was that permit holders could have their gun on school property as long as they are picking their kids up, short stay, and keep it in the car. Something to that effect.

That is correct and is covered under 39-17-1310(4)

However I believe he is talking about the second half of 39-17-1309©(1) which says...

It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

Which seems to address a longer stay and leaving your vehicle.

[Guest jos2f]

People always look at me weird when I tell them you CAN take a gun on school campus.. as long as you're basically there to pick your kid up and don't take it out of the car.

I would be all for adults and teachers carrying on campus, but then again, most people on this forum would, too.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

the law is grey, but most school districts have employee rules that wont allow it anyway. There have been a few local teachers fired because of this. My understanding is you cant have it on school property unless your picking up a dependent.

[Guest cjames38464]

This is definetly a sticky area, if I am correct there is language in there about intent to go armed...My wife teaches and I am yet to find anything in their hand book from a board policy for teachers it specifically states studends.. but she leaves it at home until we get iron clad proof...

[GLOCKMEISTER]

BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YA ASK, YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE THE ANSWER.

[Fallguy]

This is definetly a sticky area, if I am correct there is language in there about intent to go armed...My wife teaches and I am yet to find anything in their hand book from a board policy for teachers it specifically states studends.. but she leaves it at home until we get iron clad proof...

Correct, that is in part ((1) which says....

It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

Other than listing a few more weapons and including the phrase "intent to go armed" parts ( and © seem to be very simillar. Although violation of part ( is a E felony and violation of part © is B misdemeanor.

I still really think since part © is only addressing firearms and gives an exception in the second half of it....it is legal for a non-student adult to leave a firearm in their car as long as the don't handle it or allow it to be handled. But it would be nice for the above bill to pass and simply clarify that.

[RinTN]

I'm seeing conflicting information on this. There is some legal language talking about non-student adults and possession of firearms on school property. Can teachers or other staff members legally have firearms in their parked vehicles while they're working in the school?

I too wish that there was a clear answer to this. Actually, what I really wish is that TN would pass a simple law stating that your car is an extension of your home and that as such you can keep a firearm in it at any time, in any location.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

<rant mode on>Its a good thing that there are no guns allowed around schools otherwise we might have people getting gunned down at graduation ceremonies - oops too late. Dang, that silly little law must not be working correctly.< rant mode off>

My interpretation is that you can have a gun locked in your car on campus if you are a non student and you don't touch it while the vehicle is on campus. That includes day cares from what I read - dang it.

According to 39-17-1309

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.

Edited May 21, 2009 by pws_smokeyjones

[Guest Ggun]

<rant mode on>Its a good thing that there are no guns allowed around schools otherwise we might have people getting gunned down at graduation ceremonies - oops too late. Dang, that silly little law must not be working correctly.< rant mode off>

My interpretation is that you can have a gun locked in your car on campus if you are a non student and you don't touch it while the vehicle is on campus. That includes day cares from what I read - dang it.

According to 39-17-1309

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.

What about the part that refers to "operated by the adult"? How do you operate the vehicle while you are wandering around the halls?

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

If you are in possession of the keys then you are technically operating it by having it parked. You are still in control of it. That is my interpretation. Might be wrong, but that is how I see it.

[TGO David]

Those of you who are interested in this might want to check out Tennessee HB0798 and SB1261 which aimed to make a provision in the law so that full-time staff of post-secondary education facilities (i.e. colleges) can carry.

Present law generally prohibits any person from possessing a firearm on school property. Present law exempts law enforcement personnel, military personnel, and security officers from the prohibition against possession of firearms on school property.

This bill authorizes full-time faculty and staff at any public postsecondary institution in Tennessee, who are not otherwise prohibited by law, to carry handguns at all times on the premises of the public institution where they are employed upon receiving a directive from the head of the institution and upon completing an annual firearm training program of at least eight hours duration.

This bill authorizes full-time faculty and staff at any public postsecondary institution in Tennessee who possess a valid handgun carry permit to carry handguns at all times on the premises of the public institution where they are employed.

NOTE: It appears that the word "secondary" in Section 1©(2) should be "postsecondary".

You can read about it here:

Tennessee General Assembly Legislation

Unfortunately it failed in the Judicial sub-committee.

Edited May 21, 2009 by TGO David

[Guest db99wj]

I don't see where you are getting a daycare? Daycare's, unless affiliated with a school, are private entities, like a church, or corporation, therefore, they are just like any other place that is perfectly fine to carry. It would be like going to church, or the grocery store, or a commercial building.

The way I see and read it is that you can drive onto and off of school for the purpose of dropping off or picking up a child, don't touch your gun. You can lock your gun up off campus, park your car on campus, go to an event, then come back and leave, as long as you, the owner, you the permit holder, have control of the vehicle, which says to me that you have the keys.

Not saying this is correct, but this is how I interpret the laws and I am NOT a lawyer.

[Guest pws_smokeyjones]

I think you are correct db99wj. I was thinking of my daughters Montessori pre-school when I said day care. Mainly because she went there starting at age 3 so I considered it more of a day care than a school. I think actual private day cares (not operated by the state) are as you said, just like a church etc... and are ok for carry. My apologies.

[Fallguy]

If you are in possession of the keys then you are technically operating it by having it parked. You are still in control of it. That is my interpretation. Might be wrong, but that is how I see it.

That is basically correct (IMO), just like you can be charged with DUI even if you are in the back seat asleep. Even though you can not normally operate a vehicle while in the back seat and/or asleep.

[Fallguy]

Those of you who are interested in this might want to check out Tennessee HB0798 and SB1261 which aimed to make a provision in the law so that full-time staff of post-secondary education facilities (i.e. colleges) can carry.

You can read about it here:

Tennessee General Assembly Legislation

Unfortunately it failed in the Judicial sub-committee.

Yeah........I don't see that passing for several sessions, if ever.

Still have hope for HB1806/SB1622 if West is back next year...neve know, he might even get some sympathy votes....

[Guest Ggun]

That is basically correct (IMO), just like you can be charged with DUI even if you are in the back seat asleep. Even though you can not normally operate a vehicle while in the back seat and/or asleep.

Sure, if the owner of the firearm is in the backseat of his own car, ok, it's close, but I won't argue that . But the logic doesn't follow when the owner of the firearm, leaves his car, he is no longer within the exception of the law, IMO. For instance, a person can't legally be charged with operating a vehicle under the influence when the person is inside a building.

IMO, if a gun is found in someone's vehicle on school property, while that person is not operating the vehicle, they will likely risk a charge and conviction.

[Fallguy]

Sure, if the owner of the firearm is in the backseat of his own car, ok, it's close, but I won't argue that . But the logic doesn't follow when the owner of the firearm, leaves his car, he is no longer within the exception of the law, IMO. For instance, a person can't legally be charged with operating a vehicle under the influence when the person is inside a building.

IMO, if a gun is found in someone's vehicle on school property, while that person is not operating the vehicle, they will likely risk a charge and conviction.

The law about the firearm and school doesn't say operating, but under the control. If you have the keys, IMO, you are in control of the vehicle whether you are in it or not. You have the means to unlock it and/or make it go. No one else (by legal means) can do it.

You can't have it both ways, if the car and weapon belong enough to a person for them to be charged in your opinon, it is under their control enough for them to be covered in my opinion. If it is not under their control how could you have enough proof it was theres to charge them?

[Guest Bronker]

Fallguy, my head is about to spin off with all of this stuff! Just when I think I have a grasp on all the legal-speak, an opposing opinion sends me off on a tangeant.

So...Fallguy, when the legislative sessions are over, and the dust settles on Bredesen's desk, please tell me you'll compile a bullet-point laden "Tennessee Gun Laws for Dummies"!!

Before I get an aneurysm,

Bronker...out!

[Fallguy]

LOL...I'd be more apt to read a book like that than write it.

I have had no legal training of any sort. Most of the time I am just giving my opinion and or inturpriation of things.

This sort of stuff just interest me so I have read things from various sources and other's inturpriation of things, have spoke with legislators and lawyers, read AG opinons and so on.

Unfortunately many times the law is not black and white. You not only have the statute, but case law, legislative intent plus you never know what a LEO, judge or jury will do.

Between me and others I'm sure we'll post some sort of legislative round up of what was passed and signed into law this year.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Fallguy

[Guest WingedWarrior]

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

OK, so it's "not an offense under... subsection c" (whatever that means). So is it an offense under some other section or subsection?

[Guest Bronker]

LOL...I'd be more apt to read a book like that than write it.

I have had no legal training of any sort. Most of the time I am just giving my opinion and or inturpriation of things.

This sort of stuff just interest me so I have read things from various sources and other's inturpriation of things, have spoke with legislators and lawyers, read AG opinons and so on.

Unfortunately many times the law is not black and white. You not only have the statute, but case law, legislative intent plus you never know what a LEO, judge or jury will do.

Between me and others I'm sure we'll post some sort of legislative round up of what was passed and signed into law this year.

So your saying there's a chance...

We'll gather all of the children around the radio for "Fridays With Fallguy"

I'm down. But Tuesdays I'm with Maury...

Edited May 22, 2009 by Fallguy
correst misspelling quoted post

[Fallguy]

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

OK, so it's "not an offense under... subsection c" (whatever that means). So is it an offense under some other section or subsection?

It could be, if the possesion fell under 39-17-1309( which is the intent to go armed subsection.

I have to admit I still don't fully understand what constitutes that or if having a HCP is always a defense to that.