should physicians routinely inquire about guns?

[The Scullinator]

The only reason I can even justify such a question... and I'm going out on an extremely long limb here... is if:

1. You suspect that there is a problem with child neglect.

2. You see evidence of negligence in other areas of child safety. e.g. multiple injuries that should and could be avoided in any responsible home.

3. You see signs of them being an irresponsible gun owner.

Another point is that there are probably more important questions to be asking if any or all of the above scenarios are present. (or child services should have already been called.

give me a for instance why a DR would need to know if there are firearms in the house? I am not trying to pick a fight just really curious.

Note. "need to know" In this reply I am not saying (and never did) the Dr. would need to know, just some situations may warrent the question... and that is only up to the doctor's discretion. Doctors are required to report to authorities it they see evidence of abuse or neglect... again a stretch but not entirely rediculous.

Also note. My first post was just to address that lying to your doctor is quite common and I have done it in the past to avoid opening a can of worms that I knew wasn't related...

And I hope that I didn't sound like I felt that a guns in the home question should be apart of routine questioning. That (IMHO) is just moronic and apart of a liberal Nazi's quest to disrupt the lives of conservative ideals.

[Smith]

The only reason I can even justify such a question... and I'm going out on an extremely long limb here... is if:

1. You suspect that there is a problem with child neglect.

2. You see evidence of negligence in other areas of child safety. e.g. multiple injuries that should and could be avoided in any responsible home.

3. You see signs of them being an irresponsible gun owner.

Another point is that there are probably more important questions to be asking if any or all of the above scenarios are present. (or child services should have already been called.

Note. "need to know" In this reply I am not saying (and never did) the Dr. would need to know, just some situations may warrent the question... and that is only up to the doctor's discretion. Doctors are required to report to authorities it they see evidence of abuse or neglect... again a stretch but not entirely rediculous.

Also note. My first post was just to address that lying to your doctor is quite common and I have done it in the past to avoid opening a can of worms that I knew wasn't related...

And I hope that I didn't sound like I felt that a guns in the home question should be apart of routine questioning. That (IMHO) is just moronic and apart of a liberal Nazi's quest to disrupt the lives of conservative ideals.

I absolutely loath the idea that Dr.'s are government informants without patient recourse. Meaning they are required by law to inform on individuals based on personal judgment not necessarily guided or scholastically attained with total anonymity.

Never asked about guns but i get really irritated being scolded about my kids not wearing full body armor to ride their bikes.

[Mike.357]

The only reason I can even justify such a question... and I'm going out on an extremely long limb here... is if:

.

thanks for the response. I would say the three reasons you gave are valid to ask the question

[mikegideon]

I absolutely loath the idea that Dr.'s are government informants without patient recourse. Meaning they are required by law to inform on individuals based on personal judgment not necessarily guided or scholastically attained with total anonymity.

Never asked about guns but i get really irritated being scolded about my kids not wearing full body armor to ride their bikes.

Right. My doctor is there to deal with my health, and doesn't need to know anything else. Actually, mine is a friend, and probably has more rights because of it. She still doesn't poke her nose into places it doesn't belong. Gripes my butt when a doctor thinks they're some kiind of higher power.

[Mike.357]

Right. My doctor is there to deal with my health, and doesn't need to know anything else. Actually, mine is a friend, and probably has more rights because of it. She still doesn't poke her nose into places it doesn't belong. Gripes my butt when a doctor thinks they're some kiind of higher power.

I hear you Mike and agree but I also think that if the following are evident the Dr is bound to ask about things. But of course these scenarios are not the basis of this threads topic, just a side question I asked.

1. You suspect that there is a problem with child neglect.

2. You see evidence of negligence in other areas of child safety. e.g. multiple injuries that should and could be avoided in any responsible home.

[mikegideon]

I hear you Mike and agree but I also think that if the following are evident the Dr is bound to ask about things. But of course these scenarios are not the basis of this threads topic, just a side question I asked.

Well, if the child is actually the patient, and there's eveidence of neglect, then some questions may be appropriate. Still don't know if that should lead to a question about guns. That's not part of a doctor's gig.

[The Scullinator]

I absolutely loath the idea that Dr.'s are government informants without patient recourse. Meaning they are required by law to inform on individuals based on personal judgment not necessarily guided or scholastically attained with total anonymity.

Never asked about guns but i get really irritated being scolded about my kids not wearing full body armor to ride their bikes.

"multiple injuries that should and could be avoided in any responsible home" My quote and let me clarify. I personally wouldn't consider multiple bike wreck injuries to be included in this category. I was thinking more like poisonings from a parent improperly storing chemicals and not watching kids who don't know better. Stab wounds that came from objects that have no business being within reach of a child of that age. ... you know.... multiple injuries that just shouldn't be happening to a child of that age...

I agree for the most part and understand your irritation. Here's the problem... that law is in place to help prevent child abuse. I am involved with the child abuse preventions centers (non-for profit, grant and private donation funded, not government run) here in west TN and see a need for such a law.

In walks nosy, pompous, in your business doctor who truly believes that he/she is way more qualified to raise your kids than you are. I share your annoyance with these people because they cause a lot of problems for your average Joe who doesn't relentlessly beat or sexually abuse their kids. There have been cases of doctors getting parents into major court battles to keep their kids just because they didn't want them to have certain vaccinations. That's not abuse or neglect!!!

Just remember that if your a decent parent, everything should come out in the wash even if you do run into one of these quacks. But I'll agree, it scares the crap out of me to entertain the thought that I could encounter one of these doctors in the future.

[Smith]

"multiple injuries that should and could be avoided in any responsible home" My quote and let me clarify. I personally wouldn't consider multiple bike wreck injuries to be included in this category. I was thinking more like poisonings from a parent improperly storing chemicals and not watching kids who don't know better. Stab wounds that came from objects that have no business being within reach of a child of that age. ... you know.... multiple injuries that just shouldn't be happening to a child of that age...

I agree for the most part and understand your irritation. Here's the problem... that law is in place to help prevent child abuse. I am involved with the child abuse preventions centers (non-for profit, grant and private donation funded, not government run) here in west TN and see a need for such a law.

In walks nosy, pompous, in your business doctor who truly believes that he/she is way more qualified to raise your kids than you are. I share your annoyance with these people because they cause a lot of problems for your average Joe who doesn't relentlessly beat or sexually abuse their kids. There have been cases of doctors getting parents into major court battles to keep their kids just because they didn't want them to have certain vaccinations. That's not abuse or neglect!!!

Just remember that if your a decent parent, everything should come out in the wash even if you do run into one of these quacks. But I'll agree, it scares the crap out of me to entertain the thought that I could encounter one of these doctors in the future.

I understand the law on face value and know where you are coming from. However, I have encountered one to many cases of

Dr doogood or similar person make a false claim or "judgment" call (mostly spanking issues) only to have the good parents name, reputation, and relationship with their child forever damaged. Not to mention that in abuse claims it is guilty until proven innocent.

FYI - I had an aunt who was a DCS case worker and she had the power to take any child, no matter how small or unfounded the claim, until an investigations was concluded. Let's just say i love my aunt but she couldn't manage her own life much less somebody elses.

[Guest clownsdd]

Did not read all the comments, but it's none of my doctors business.

If he suspects any of the mentioned abuses, he should notify the proper authorities.

[The Scullinator]

I understand the law on face value and know where you are coming from. However, I have encountered one to many cases of

Dr doogood or similar person make a false claim or "judgment" call (mostly spanking issues) only to have the good parents name, reputation, and relationship with their child forever damaged. Not to mention that in abuse claims it is guilty until proven innocent.

FYI - I had an aunt who was a DCS case worker and she had the power to take any child, no matter how small or unfounded the claim, until an investigations was concluded. Let's just say i love my aunt but she couldn't manage her own life much less somebody elses.

AGREED. The system is flawed but I'm not sure I'm ready to do away with it completely.... yet ;-D I would love for DCS to be modeled much more like the child advocacy centers but the government doesn't run things that way. And your right about the quality of people that work there. The screening processes in most cases don't seem to be up to what I think should be standard but again government..... nuff said.

[Smith]

AGREED. The system is flawed but I'm not sure I'm ready to do away with it completely.... yet ;-D I would love for DCS to be modeled much more like the child advocacy centers but the government doesn't run things that way. And your right about the quality of people that work there. The screening processes in most cases don't seem to be up to what I think should be standard but again government..... nuff said.

Common thread - Good ideas completely screwed up by government.

[mhmd]

I always ask if I see a holster. How else would you get invited to try everyones new toys?

[BigK]

No penalty for lying to a doctor. Just say no. If it offends you, find a new doctor at your leisure. No reason to push it into a confrontation when they have zero authority.

The doctor apparently didn't care if he/she offends his patient by asking, so I refuse to care if my answer offends the doctor. It won't be a confrontation unless the doc makes it one.

I am not one for dodging those that pointedly piss me off.

Except when I'm at work and have to bite my tongue to keep my job, I'm with ya on this point.

[mikegideon]

The doctor apparently didn't care if he/she offends his patient by asking, so I refuse to care if my answer offends the doctor. It won't be a confrontation unless the doc makes it one.

Except when I'm at work and have to bite my tongue to keep my job, I'm with ya on this point.

Same thing. Find a new doctor (or new job), then piss them off all you want.

[Guest grimel]

The only reason I can even justify such a question... and I'm going out on an extremely long limb here... is if:

1. You suspect that there is a problem with child neglect.

2. You see evidence of negligence in other areas of child safety. e.g. multiple injuries that should and could be avoided in any responsible home.

3. You see signs of them being an irresponsible gun owner.

Another point is that there are probably more important questions to be asking if any or all of the above scenarios are present. (or child services should have already been called.

How about telling me just who the hell you are to determine there is evidence of negligence (injuries avoided in responsible home) and what are signs of irresponsible gun ownership AND what business is it if the parent is?

[Guest grimel]

Just remember that if your a decent parent, everything should come out in the wash even if you do run into one of these quacks. But I'll agree, it scares the crap out of me to entertain the thought that I could encounter one of these doctors in the future.

Provided you have the money to fight the claims. Provided you don't lose your job because of the claims. Provided you do every retarded thing the juvenile court judge wants. Provided you document the lies and crap the DCS workers do. Provided you LET the idiots in DCS abuse your rights and agree to follow their retarded ideas on parenting.

[Guest grimel]

I understand the law on face value and know where you are coming from. However, I have encountered one to many cases of

Dr doogood or similar person make a false claim or "judgment" call (mostly spanking issues) only to have the good parents name, reputation, and relationship with their child forever damaged. Not to mention that in abuse claims it is guilty until proven innocent.

FYI - I had an aunt who was a DCS case worker and she had the power to take any child, no matter how small or unfounded the claim, until an investigations was concluded. Let's just say i love my aunt but she couldn't manage her own life much less somebody elses.

And you can't go after the reporting idiot because of confidentiality to keep the tips coming.

[Guest grimel]

AGREED. The system is flawed but I'm not sure I'm ready to do away with it completely....

Sorry, it needs to be dismantled. It does more damage than it does good.

[The Scullinator]

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How about telling me just who the hell you are to determine there is evidence of negligence (injuries avoided in responsible home) and what are signs of irresponsible gun ownership AND what business is it if the parent is?

Doctors are often the person that comes into contact with these children. We all have the responsibility to report any obvious signs of abuse or neglect. We all have a responsibility to protect those who can’t protect themselves. Why should it be any different for a doctor? A doctor was just the subject of this thread. If I found out that someone had good hard evidence that my child was being heinously neglected or abused when he/she wasn’t in my presence and didn’t inform me or the authorities… that person has a bigger problem at this point… ME!!!

And as for signs of irresponsible gun ownership... like I said I was going out on a very long limb and almost nobody is that stupid. But just for the sake of the argument... lets say a father brings his kids with him for a check up and hands his 8 y/o son his 45. Would you not agree that this may be a sign of an irresponsible gun owner. LET ME SAY AGAIN!!!!! Very far fetched but would you not see this as a red flag? My patients bring their guns with them all the time and put them on the table when they undress... not a problem and I personally love it because it lets me know they trust me and gives me an opportunity to talk about my gun fetish. I know the above scenario is ridiculous but I could totally see it happening in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1></st1></st1:city><st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Memphis</st1></st1:city>... haha sorry guys I couldn't resist.

<o></o>

Provided you have the money to fight the claims. Provided you don't lose your job because of the claims. Provided you do every retarded thing the juvenile court judge wants. Provided you document the lies and crap the DCS workers do. Provided you LET the idiots in DCS abuse your rights and agree to follow their retarded ideas on parenting.

I agree with Blackstone's formulation "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" but I’m not going to say we have sooo many bad judges and DCS workers that we should kill what the system does. Not all reports go through hell… just those with enough evidence. I have a close friend who called the authorities on her step father with allegations of abuse. She was just a rebellious teen that didn’t want to submit to authority. They were asked and admitted to spanking but nothing else the girl said stuck. The authorities saw it for what it was and all charges were dropped. The family is still revered as responsible upstanding citizens. I’m not saying that it always turns out this way but what I am saying that sometimes the system works. It is a shame that some people can’t afford the best legal defense but that still doesn’t warrant not having a system in place.

<o></o>

Sorry, it needs to be dismantled. It does more damage than it does good.

<o></o>

I agree to the point that there probably is a better way of doing things but totally dismantling it… without plans for something else to take its place is a total mistake.

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Edited July 27, 2010 by The Scullinator

[Guest Lester Weevils]

The Protective Services situation will never be perfect. Anonymous reporting combined with a small percentage of insane neighbors/relatives who report imaginary abuse, causes grief for people unjustly accused.

Protective Services workers are not paid well and it is a crap job, because there is LOTS of real stomach-turning abuse, and they have to see it daily.

If a Protective Services worker makes an investigation and then reports "nothing is wrong here", then if later on it turns out that the worker was wrong, and something bad happens to the child or old person, then politicians and public gets scandalized and they want to write even more draconian laws so such awful abuse can never ever fall thru the cracks again. So there is a 'cover your ass' tendency to keep cases open a long time, even in absence of evidence.

Long ago I never worked in Protective Services, but got some 'overflow' cases. On the annoying side, there was one crazy mother-in-law that kept calling in child sexual abuse complaints against her son-in-law, and I had to go talk to the family every time the crazy old lady would call. The family was way tired of it, and I was way tired of it, and no way to stop it. But maybe I was wrong and the son-in-law really was a prevert. Never can tell.

On the other hand, saw some cases of real neglect that were so bad that it ruins your faith in the basic decency of people. And I was getting the "easy cases" that didn't require a specially trained protective services worker.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Lester Weevils

[The Scullinator]

WELL SAID LESTER WEEVILS!!!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE AND INPUT!!!

[Guest grimel]

Doctors are often the person that comes into contact with these children. We all have the responsibility to report any obvious signs of abuse or neglect. We all have a responsibility to protect those who can’t protect themselves. Why should it be any different for a doctor? A doctor was just the subject of this thread. If I found out that someone had good hard evidence that my child was being heinously neglected or abused when he/she wasn’t in my presence and didn’t inform me or the authorities… that person has a bigger problem at this point… ME!!!

What are obvious signs? Spanking in public? Letting them run wild in public? Bruises? These are OPINIONS not obvious signs. Way too much gets reported.

And as for signs of irresponsible gun ownership... like I said I was going out on a very long limb and almost nobody is that stupid. But just for the sake of the argument... lets say a father brings his kids with him for a check up and hands his 8 y/o son his 45. Would you not agree that this may be a sign of an irresponsible gun owner. LET ME SAY AGAIN!!!!! Very far fetched but would you not see this as a red flag?

No, it is YOUR OPINION it is a sign of a irresponsible gun owner. Even if he is, it is NOT YOUR JOB to but into his family.

I agree with Blackstone's formulation "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" but I’m not going to say we have sooo many bad judges and DCS workers that we should kill what the system does. Not all reports go through hell… just those with enough evidence.

Um, no, not even close. I sat in juvenile court for nearly 3 years watching the stupidity. Little to no evidence, yet, the families are put through torture because they can't afford the best lawyers. Retarded "conditions", people with zero experience raising kids determining what is and isn't "proper". When caught in lies (documented) the DCS case workers are shuffled around. Pathetic excuse for a system.

I agree to the point that there probably is a better way of doing things but totally dismantling it… without plans for something else to take its place is a total mistake

So, keep letting people be abused that don't deserve it and let those creating the next generation of criminals keep at it. Yeah, it's doing such a great job. It only took the 30th drug use/dealing arrest in 3yrs for one of the local mother of the year candidate to lose her kids, oh, wait, they are with the grandmother where the mother stays when she isn't in jail and the rest of the drug dealing car jacking family stays. Yeah, that did a lot for those kids.

“does more harm than good†until you show me the evidence that it actually does do more harm than good… Sir I will have to respectfully disagree!!!

Spend 2 hours with the DCS baboons. Spend a day in Anderson county's juvenile court. Try to reach anyone in the East TN DCS system between 8am and 4pm. Let the child's lawyer call DCS to have the child removed because the DCS picked guardian is deemed a danger. Then watch DCS send the kid right back. Watch the grandparents trying to get their grandkids be denied due to taking prescription meds.

[The Scullinator]

What are obvious signs? Spanking in public? Letting them run wild in public? Bruises? These are OPINIONS not obvious signs. Way too much gets reported.

It would take pages and paragraphs to even begin to explain what in my OPINION is obvious signs of abuse/neglect but I assure you it doesn't involve what you have listed in it's simplest form. There are different extremes of "spanking in public" and what is defined as abuse or normal discipline. I fear you have me pegged as a left wing liberal who jumps at the first sign and I assure you I'm far from it. I will agree that things get reported that should never be reported.

No, it is YOUR OPINION it is a sign of a irresponsible gun owner. Even if he is, it is NOT YOUR JOB to but into his family.

Man if in your "OPINION" the ridiculous scenario that I purposed is not a red flag of a irresponsible gun owner then we will have to agree to disagree. If some guy walks in to my office and hands his 8 year old son that kind of weapon then IT IS MY BUSINESS! You right! I don't know of any national guidelines that prohibit an adult from handing AN 8 YEAR OLD a hand gun (but there probably are) and thus I have no problem admitting that it is my OPINION that it is a sign of an irresponsible gun owner. Do you have any idea the liability issues I would have if I allowed 8 year old kids to handle weapons in my place of business? I'm not running a gun store here. I don't have people in place to monitor children with guns! This argument is preposterous. I'd be a moron not to report the guy. If someone got hurt or died because I knowingly let that scenario play out guess who gets sued!!! ME!!! I have taken 8 year old children shooting before! Gun ranges are an appropriate place to hand an 8 year old a gun. A doctor's office is not! How about this... why don't you purpose a scenario (equally ridiculous if you like) where it is appropriate to hand an 8 year old a hand gun IN A DOCTOR'S OFFICE so I can see your side of the argument.

Um, no, not even close. I sat in juvenile court for nearly 3 years watching the stupidity. Little to no evidence, yet, the families are put through torture because they can't afford the best lawyers. Retarded "conditions", people with zero experience raising kids determining what is and isn't "proper". When caught in lies (documented) the DCS case workers are shuffled around. Pathetic excuse for a system.

Ya I almost edited out the whole "Not all reports go through hell… just those with enough evidence" comment because I thought it was gonna get taken out of context but I figured that you could get the point of the whole paragraph which was: It's not a perfect system and most of the time it does what it is supposed to do. It needs a major face lift or overhaul but unless we have something better right on it heels IT NEEDS TO STAY IN PLACE.

So, keep letting people be abused that don't deserve it and let those creating the next generation of criminals keep at it. Yeah, it's doing such a great job. It only took the 30th drug use/dealing arrest in 3yrs for one of the local mother of the year candidate to lose her kids, oh, wait, they are with the grandmother where the mother stays when she isn't in jail and the rest of the drug dealing car jacking family stays. Yeah, that did a lot for those kids.

So the system does absolutely nothing? There are no sexually or physically abused children being saved from horrible situations? Then yea I agree! DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM!!! I'll tell you what man, you watch a young girl get down on her knees and thank God (when she thinks that NO ONE is watching) that he has sent someone to deliver her from her (sexual abuse) problem, and tell me that the system isn't doing a lot of good! My point WAS NEVER that there isn't a lot of room for improvement. And so you've got an example of a group of kids that have been FAILED! WE ARE BOTH IN AGREEMENT THAT THEY COULD DO MUCH BETTER! My main argument is that if I had a choice of keeping what we have or just dropping it completely, I would choose to continue with what we have because NO ONE IS WORKING ON PUTTING ANYTHING BETTER IN PLACE AT THIS TIME. If you are currently working on a new and improved system then my hat is off to you and I would love to be involved.

Spend 2 hours with the DCS baboons. Spend a day in Anderson county's juvenile court. Try to reach anyone in the East TN DCS system between 8am and 4pm. Let the child's lawyer call DCS to have the child removed because the DCS picked guardian is deemed a danger. Then watch DCS send the kid right back. Watch the grandparents trying to get their grandkids be denied due to taking prescription meds.

I have many personal relationships with people that are DCS employees and they will be the first to tell you that they have been infiltrated with plenty of morons. Many of them are only there because they have a passion for what they do (and that passion IS NOT screwing innocent people). You labeling all DCS workers as baboons is just as wrong as labeling every active member of this forum as an extreme right wing loonytoon. (no offense to those who consider them selves as far right wingers... I'm referring to those who claim that our soldiers are dieing because we are a sinful nation of sodomites and those who encourage the killing of people like the "family planning doctors" (abortion doctors). I consider myself to be pretty conservative/right wing.) I've never spent any time in Anderson county's court system so maybe your right and in your area the whole system is doing more bad than good. I just think that completely doing away with a national system that is set up to protect children that can't protect them selves is a really bad idea.

Edited July 29, 2010 by The Scullinator

[tnhawk]

I don't go to the gun shop for medical advice, nor to the doctor for gun advice! Both are useful in their own areas.

[Louisb]

I'm just guessing that some of the new insurance programs will delve into gun ownership.

I'm betting that it will come up during "routine" questions to participate in some of the "preferred/cheaper" premiums plan.