Topical discussion with friend in NOLA

[MexicanDragon]

So I was discussing guns, carrying, VT, "assault rifles", murder/crime rates in medium sized cities, etc with a buddy of mine from the honors program in college. He grew up in Memphis, lived through Katrina (@ Tulane for grad school), and is now back in NOLA after an excursion to Columbia (the university, not the country) while Tulane was incapacitated.

He has been in acadamia for years now, and is not anti-gun, but was for gun control and regulation. When we started talking about VT, he was telling me that he doubted that anyone in the Science and Engineering building would be carrying, if it was allowed. I disagreed, but I (and I'm sure most of us here) have been away from acadamia for quite a while, and he's hardly left it. He knows much if not all of the faculty in the same building @ Tulane, and said none of the professors or grad students would carry, and out of his 150 or so students, only 4-5 would possibly do it if they were allowed to. I found this to be quite interesting... but still disagreed with him. I told him that I thought some of the engineers would probably carry if allowed (especially mechanical engineering prof's/students). Moving on...

We then got into some gun control talk. He told me about having people stash AK's in garbage cans before being apprehended by the police, and they even found one under his neighbor's house. He has been woken up by gunshots (AK vs small caliber handgun, iirc), and he had a neighbor who was nearly hit by a stray bullet. He relayed to me a story I thought was completely absurd, but where he lives, after reading a little more, I thought it to be a possible scenario. I thought I'd run this by some of you guys who are dealers, see what TN has to put up (story wise) with NOLA.

"a man should not be able to walk into a gun store with his 5 year old son, ask to see an ak47, strap it around his son, tell him on tape that he's going to buy him that chopper and teach him to be a solja, and purchase the weapon."

This has seemingly happened enough times that at least one local shop quit selling semi-auto rifles selectively. It also seems that many people are aquiring the AK style rifles and converting them to full auto. When I explained the penalties of doing this, he replied "do you really think someone who's going to murder someone would really care about another ten years?" Which lead to the following part of the conversation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20002651/site/newsweek/

There were 161 murders in NOLA in 2006. They convicted 3 people, that was it. It seems there were only arrests made in 37 cases, but that still leaves it at an 8% conviction rate for all of 2006.

With post-Katrina numbers, NOLA is #1 in murders per capita in the US, hovering in the mid 60's to low 70's per 100,000 people (depending on data). Chattanooga was ranked 51st in 2005, for example, with 12.7 per 100,000. Those figures put Chattanooga at 190% of the national average (from the data I collected during our conversation). Nashville, Knoxville and Memphis were all on the 2005 list as well. Nashville and Knoxville were close to Chattanooga's ranking, while Memphis was, I believe, about 34th. NOLA was not even in the top 100 in 2005.

I just found this to be quite an interesting conversation with an old college pal, and I thought I'd throw it out there to get some thoughts on various parts from this community, who are better versed than myself in the realm of this particular discussion.

Thanks for reading what was I'm sure a lenghty post. I may add more to it tomorrow, as I'm sure I'll remember something else and want to put that in as well.

**BRENT**

[DaveTN]

I’m not sure what you are asking but here are some opinions on what you posted.

Dope is illegal. The penalties keep getting tougher and tougher; hasn’t slowed it down any.

People have been making AK’s and AR’s full auto for years. When they caught they get sent to jail. The real question is how many of these illegally converted weapons have actually been fired during the commission of a crime. I’m guessing the number is pretty miniscule.

I would rather see spray and pray from an AK or a .223 than a shooter on high ground with a scoped .308 or 30-06 bolt. He may not fire as many rounds but he would have a much higher kill count. So if semi’s are banned how long to you think it would be before “hunting rifles†are banned. Illinois is trying to ban ALL .50 caliber rifles; and I would bet that no one in Illinois has been killed with a .50 cal. (Other than a muzzle loader)

As a cop I saw parents do far worse things with their kids than strap a gun on them. An argument could be made that is not as bad and thinking that spending quality time with your kids is teaching them to kill animals for sport.

The core problem is not guns; the core problem is jobs. If the government can make a lot of noise about guns and drugs they don’t have to talk so much about what is causing the problem.

The more jobs we lose to the “global economy†the higher our crime rate will go. More Cops, firemen and medical personnel will be needed with fewer people to pay the bills.

But you have to remember if someone has it in their mind that guns are the problem; facts won’t usually matter.

[molonlabetn]

I agree with Dave, the heart of the problem is within every individual... our society now exhibits a marked lack of personal responsibility. Banning guns, or any other object, will not affect the disposition of some people to do evil, or simply be irresponsible.

[Cannon Fodder]

Banning guns, or any other object, will not affect the disposition of some people to do evil, or simply be irresponsible.

Case in point, LA, Ca. Feb '97. 3 years AFTER AWB. But can anyone recall a crime where an EBR of any sort used since, I think everyone knows they have been unbanned for 3 years? I can't but I haven't watched the news much in the last few years, to many stupid liberals talking out of their ass.

[The Rabbi]

Case in point, LA, Ca. Feb '97. 3 years AFTER AWB. But can anyone recall a crime where an EBR of any sort used since, I think everyone knows they have been unbanned for 3 years? I can't but I haven't watched the news much in the last few years, to many stupid liberals talking out of their ass.

Tyler, TX. Guy used a Mak-90.

But I agree with Molonlabe that banning stuff is not the answer.

As for the OP, there is no way the dad could have said that. Everyone knows the word is "choppa.":D

NOLA is its own world. I dont think lessons there have a lot of relevance elsewhere.

[Urse]

I agree that the cycle of poverty is partially to blame for this but that is not an acceptable excuse. People become what they are taught to be. My parents cared enough about me to discipline me and teach me respect for myself and others. Unfortunately, many people are not so lucky.

Tyler, TX. Guy used a Mak-90.

True it was a Mak 90 converted to pistol grip but Rabbi if you check your facts the Mak 90 used by David Arroyo in Tyler was Semi-automatic. Actually I have yet to find solid proof that criminals are converting semi auto rifles to full auto assault weapons in large numbers because it is so easy. Actually most of the information I find would suggest the opposite.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html

I think I am gonna start a couple threads on other forums to poll LE members on the regularity in which they run across these "easily" converted guns. I am not denying that a reasonably competent person could convert a semi to full auto I just think most criminals wouldn't take the time necessary. I smell liberal anti-gun urban legend being spread about.

[The Rabbi]

I agree that the cycle of poverty is partially to blame for this but that is not an acceptable excuse. People become what they are taught to be. My parents cared enough about me to discipline me and teach me respect for myself and others. Unfortunately, many people are not so lucky.

True it was a Mak 90 converted to pistol grip but Rabbi if you check your facts the Mak 90 used by David Arroyo in Tyler was Semi-automatic. Actually I have yet to find solid proof that criminals are converting semi auto rifles to full auto assault weapons in large numbers because it is so easy. Actually most of the information I find would suggest the opposite.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html

I think I am gonna start a couple threads on other forums to poll LE members on the regularity in which they run across these "easily" converted guns. I am not denying that a reasonably competent person could convert a semi to full auto I just think most criminals wouldn't take the time necessary. I smell liberal anti-gun urban legend being spread about.

Urse, the question posed by Cannonfodder above referred to the '94 AWB, which dealt with semi-autos and he asked whether "EBRs" (meaning in that context semi-auto "assault rifle" style guns) had been used in crimes. So I answered, which was correct.

As for converting them, yeah it can be done. Not too easily but it isnt rocket science. I don't think many crimes are committed with conventional "assault weapon" rifles, much less those converted to full auto. Most guns used in crimes are the basic Lorcin, Jennings type or Mossberg Cruisers. In other words, functionally indistinguishable from any other gun.

[Urse]

Terminology:shrug: details...details.

[Guest Julez]

It's all semantics... and really doesn't matter. Criminals are criminals..... if they don't care to shoot you, they definitely aren't going to care whether or not the gun itself is "legal". So placing *any* bans on *any* weapons is simply going to keep those weapons out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Just my .

[The Rabbi]

It's all semantics... and really doesn't matter. Criminals are criminals..... if they don't care to shoot you, they definitely aren't going to care whether or not the gun itself is "legal". So placing *any* bans on *any* weapons is simply going to keep those weapons out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Just my .

True dat.

[Guest Len]

One could also make an argument that fully automatic weapons would make poor choices for much criminal activity. If you are not well-trained, a full-auto weapon is harder to handle and accurately use than a semi. Criminals by and large like stealth, concealment, and the ability to blend in, disappear. You are not very likely to do this as you wander the streets with your AK. I have a feeling that if the guns most commonly used in crimes were banned, many of us would be turning in our favorite small revolvers, semi-auto pistols and probably some shotguns.

Back to the OP, I agree that it is unlikely that many people in academic settings would carry if given the legal chance to do so. (I'm not talking about students, but rather faculty, professional staff, big shot administrators, etc.) I'm sure SOME would (including lil' old me...), but the thought of ever even NEEDING a gun, much less carrying one, is just antithetical to many academics. It would be like asking me to carry snow shoes as I walk on the beach in Miami. Why would I? It is sometimes an anti-gun knee-jerk reaction, but many times it is (and I have seen this first hand) just a complete lack of understanding of the need. VA Tech and the like are pretty rare, the argument goes. I feel safe, the argument goes. Why do I need a gun, the argument goes. There has never been a shooting on this campus, the argument goes. And so on.

And, we must admit, these are reasonable arguments. Most campuses (not all) are fairly safe places, especially when compared to the towns and cities they sit in. (I see the crime reports for every TBR campus every year, there is not much violent crime, mostly theft, etc.) Carrying is a personal choice, and many people I have met in academia choose not to, and have never even seen the need to. They are not afraid and say "If I'm not afraid for my life, why should I carry a gun?" Whether this is reasonable or not is of course open for debate, but it is true. If you don't feel the need to, why would you? Most academics I know (and I know alot) are not "anti-gun" at all. In fact, many are fascinated with them, they just don't see the need to own and/or carry one. And of course, many of them don't see the need for you or me to carry them either. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Final thought: I think the terms "anti-gun" and "anti-violence" should not be used interchangably. I see myself as "anti-violence," but clearly I am not "anti-gun."

[Guest Hyaloid]

The problem with most of that logic, Len, is then the academia in their infinite wisdom, also want us to NOT carry a gun because THEY decided that they don't want to. They project their fears and concerns on us, and try to ram their elitist ideology down our throats.

[towerclimber37]

thats why the nerds always get the swirlies:D:stir:

[Im Neero]

(I see the crime reports for every TBR campus every year, there is not much violent crime, mostly theft, etc.)

I went to the University of Memphis for 3 years. In those years there were 4 cases of serial criminals victimizing the campus for roughly a month each time. One time it was a man that was assaulting females as they walked to their cars. I believe that there were at least 3 victims, more if memory serves. Two seperate semesters there was a rash of armed robberies commited by a pair of men, one of whom carried a sawed off shotgun (how many laws aren't helping in that situation.) The last one was the same as the previous, but it was a pistol instead of a shotgun. It's been a little while, but I don' recall any of the perpetrators ever being caugh. No one ever got shot as the victims gave up their money readily, but there were some assaults tied in with these crimes.

I plan to go back to UofM next semester to finish my degree. I sincerely hope that by that time there is a law allowing licensed individuals to carry on a college campus. I for one refuse to be a victim of some scumbag that preys on the fearful in a place that a criminal knows he can find unarmed victims that are taught not to fight back. It would be nice if there was a law allowing me to do that with a handgun.

[The Rabbi]

The problem with most of that logic, Len, is then the academia in their infinite wisdom, also want us to NOT carry a gun because THEY decided that they don't want to. They project their fears and concerns on us, and try to ram their elitist ideology down our throats.

Well, THEY don't need it. By logical extension WE don't need it either.

Of course I dont need tweed jackets and pipes so.....

[Guest crytes]

Hey I'm a nerd! Thats an image tho "Revenge of the Nerds!" whith guns! No more swirlies and the jocks wouldn't stand a chance. Granted do to my fastination whith talking about anything that goes boom I never had to worry about bullies.

Crytes

[Guest Len]

Dudes, as I said:

And of course, many of them don't see the need for you or me to carry them either. And that's the rub, isn't it?

I agree the issue is people attempting to impose their choices on others.

However, isn't this an issue far greater than gun control? There are many places where some aspect of the population attempts to impose its will on the rest. Here are few examples:

1) Abortion restrictions

2) Drug laws

3) Laws against sodomy, etc.

4) Laws against selling beer/alcohol some days/times

5) Laws that force out "adult businesses/strip clubs"

6) Laws against the growing of hemp.

etc...

Sure, give me a well-thought out and evidenced argument that some of these laws have greater social good (ie, the social/economic cost of drug use may make it reasonable to regulate it), but many times there is simply no reason other than ideology.

I think we have a situation where government is not just imposing its will on the people, but rather that the govt is the instrument by which some people (those in political power) impose their wills on other people (those not in power. Hmm, isnt this the reason behind setting up govts. in the first place, to make sure that does not happen? Gun control is such an obvious example since RTKBA is "protected" by the constitution, and yet it is under assault. Just imagine how other less enumerated rights are being trampled on.

We have lost our way, and unless we find the road again soon, I fear for the future of the Republic.

[molonlabetn]

It is impossible to legislate morality or common-sense... And when they try, the disparity between those who have those qualities/values and those who don't only gets worse, not better.