P320 Debacle

[tntlassiter]

Does the recent post by Sig change anyone's mind on the P320?  I have carried one for over a year and never had any problems and it shoots like a dream.  Am I just waiting for the inevitable?  Is this mostly bad handling practices that people don't want to take responsibility for?  Just curious

[Chucktshoes]

No, it doesn’t change my mind about the 320 at all. In fact, their post only further confirms for me that they don’t give a damn about their customers, and are willing to lie and obfuscate in attempts to protect their bottom line. There is far too much evidence of problems with the platform, not just the un-commanded, discharges, but out of battery detonations and damages due to poor protection from magazine over-insertion.

 

So despite their very feeble efforts, it absolutely did not end that day.

Edited 19 hours ago by Chucktshoes

[TNman207]

I have owned multiple P320s over the years. The one I purchased a few years ago was sent to Sig as part of their free upgrade to address drop safety concerns. I shoot IDPA and have never had an issue with the pistol. 

[JustEd]

1- Yea people do lie to cover their arse, or hole n the leg

2- SIG is a big corporation which some see as a cash cow

3- Have shot P320/365 in IDPA. Only AD’s I ever saw on any gun were from people who had finger on the trigger when they shouldn’t have. That meant a DQ from the match and possibly future matches as well

4- If my career were on the line as a Leo , might cook up an excuse to stay employed. That is just being human. 

Edited 21 hours ago by JustEd

[Thearmededucator]

No it didnt change my mind.

But that said:

If someone calls you a Horse, you punch him in the mouth.

If a second person calls you a Horse, you call him an A-hole.

If a third person calls you a Horse, you probably ought to start looking for a saddle...

 

I have not personally seen one go off, but I know and trust a couple who have. Not worth it to me

[TGO David]

Something is awry, even if it is just that Sig did very little to openly address the issue when it was "lore" and hadn't completely become widely accepted as being true, regardless of the validity of the claims.

I have one and I really like it, but I have also sidelined it until I have more reasons than a PR statement to restore my confidence in it.

 

[deerslayer]

Never seen one self-activate, but I did witness a kB (SIG’s other PR problem).  Too many other options for me to roll the dice on a 320. 

[Frog4aday]

Carrying a loaded Sig P320 with no thumb safety is the equivalent of carrying a loaded 1911 with the hammer cocked...and no thumb safety to engage. And that's crazy to me. You have a gun ready to fire as soon as 4.5lbs of pressure finds its way to that trigger, regardless if it was intentional or not.

I don't think the gun (P320) is defective. I think the concept of selling a gun with no safety, no trigger 'doohickey, (a la Glock), and a trigger pull that light (4.5lbs) is defective. It is just too easy for that trigger to get pushed/pulled/bumped/nudged/tugged and fire the gun unintentionally.

I like Sigs. I have Sigs. But a non-thumb safety 320 is a no-go for me. If all you used it for was competition/target shooting, maybe it would be okay. But as a "duty gun" in a holster? Nope. As a concealed carry gun, stashed on my person somewhere? Heck no! As a gun stashed in a drawer for home defense? Uh...maybe?

Sig can say whatever they want, but it's not going to change the public's perception of the product at this point. Perception isn't reality but that doesn't matter if no one wants to buy your product because of fear it may 'accidentally' go off.

Edited 8 hours ago by Frog4aday

[papa61]

IN MY OPINION. In the old days Sig would have pulled the platform from the market. The loss would have been made up for in good will sales. These days, pulling a product would be equal to admission of guilt. The reputation of the platform is tainted and will never recover. Sig will let it die out and pull it due to poor sales while never admitting it had any issues.

[BigK]

I like a good 3D animated explanation. I watched this twice and I'm stumped. Where at in this sequence do folks think the failure is happening when the trigger is not pulled?

 

 

[Bigtrav6442]

I've dropped my 320 X-Carry at least 3-4 times in training and have never had an accidental misfire.  I don't train on concrete but I know on hard packed sand there isn't an issue.  I will still carry it as a main secondary with no worries though.

 

[Erich]

I have mixed feelings with Sig. One of my favorite 1911’s is a Sig. But I’ve found them difficult on warranty matters at times. I just sent back a brand new unfired cerakoted firearm that was not prepped correctly so the coating chips off easily. I felt like I got the third degree with the rep. Seemed like they thought I was trying to pull something, so I don’t expect them to do the right thing, but hoping. It’s just different working with them now that they have military contracts.

All that said, I have 3 320 modules that have been in various configurations / slides / grip modules. Never a problem.

I didn’t know about this article OP called out. But yesterday I received an email from Gray’s that seemed out of the blue until this. It referred to  “renewed  discussions” about the 320. So now I get the context. This is their.02 if anyone cares:

At Grayguns, we don’t take anything for granted. We test, we push, and we go beyond normal use conditions to find out what a firearm is truly capable of. Over the years, in controlled environments, we have deliberately attempted to compromise the mechanical safeties of the P320, looking for ways an unintended discharge could occur. Despite those efforts, we have never been able to induce a discharge without the trigger being actuated. That does not mean people are wrong to be asking questions.

The fact that we have not been able to make it happen does not change the reality that people believe it’s happening. We understand that too, and because of that, we are going to continue to explore every scenario, no matter how implausible it may seem. If there is a way for a failure to occur, we want to find it, understand it, and make sure the people who depend on this firearm have the information they need.

[Frog4aday]

Ask yourself: "Self, would you be perfectly comfortable carrying a loaded (cartridge in the chamber, hammer cocked) model 1911 if it had no thumb safety and no grip safety?"

If the answer is "Yes", then the no-thumb-safety Sig P320 is the modern striker fired pistol for you!

I do not believe P320s are 'just going off' by themselves. I believe the trigger pull is light enough, and short enough, and that the trigger is wide enough with a squarish profile that it is getting pressed/moved enough to fire by holsters distorting in odd ways (especially ones big enough to accommodate a weapon mounted light or laser), strings or shirt tails getting into the trigger area, or any number of situations that allow pressure or drag to occur on the trigger tip, edge, or face.

Sig made a Glock...but with a lighter trigger pull and no tab (drop safety) in the center of the trigger. Subtle changes but problematic changes as time and accidental discharges are showing. Glock had its share of accidental discharges, too, when it first came out. There is a learning curve w/new designs. I don't think the 320 is a learning curve issue. It's an issue w/a company pushing the striker fire design too close to being a cocked 1911 with no thumb safety ('lock') to engage or grip safety present to prevent an accidental discharge. The military versions of the P320 (M17/M18) all come with a manual thumb safety. There is a reason for that.

I think Sig can save their gun by either installing a heavier trigger pull and adding a drop safety tab in the trigger face OR only selling the P320 model with a manual thumb safety. (Perhaps there is a third option? Installing a grip safety like that on the Springfield Armory XD pistols so pressure on the trigger alone will not allow the gun to fire.)

But doing anything now looks like an admission of a problem and I can't see them doing that. So the uncommanded discharges will continue until they either get sued to bankruptcy or they drop the P320 model number, make the needed changes, and then announce their new and improved "plastic fantastic", the Sig P3200!

[scatman]

The manual safety isn't the end all solution, there's been a confirmed report of AD in the military since they've been issued, involving a Sgt. in the Army, with another dozen or so "unconfirmed" reports as well that are currently under investigation throughout the other branches. Sure there is room for negligence, holster could've pushed the safety off during re-holstering, and then unwanted pressure on the trigger, a lot of people seem to be attempting to blame holsters as the main issue, but I've carrying for 8 years, all manner of handguns and carry platforms, even made my own holsters for awhile, without issues, the simple fact is, Sig took the 320 design from the 250 platform, took away the hammer fire action and replaced it with a striker fired one, and made no safety precautions while doing so. The first run of the 320 was proven to drop fire, not just by civilians, but also gun professionals, cops, and the military. The military proving this is what caused Sig to do the whole "upgrade" thing where if you sent it back they'd make it "drop-safe." Then for military trials they needed to incorporate a manual safety. Cue Sig's design team, doing the bare minimum. It's very sad to see them come from a company that produced the 226 and it's many proven variants, as well as some of the earliest advancements in handgun design along with CZ, HK, and Walther, to making a design that can't compete with a gen2 Glock in terms of reliability.

Edited 6 hours ago by scatman