CARRY PISTOL

[papa61]

We have had some good discussions on add ons to EDC pistols so I thought we could discuss some of the basics. I have my basic points on what is a good carry piece, I'm sure it won't be a complete checklist and to cover all of the details of every point would be too long. But I'm sure we'll cover it along the way. I'm sure there will be some behind the scenes gaffawing and that's ok.

What I need to consider a pistol acceptable for personal defense.

Fit - it must fit well. in the hand, in your wardrobe, in your lifestyle. but to me how it fits in the hand. When I grip a pistol it should naturally fall into the straight line between the elbow and the end of my pointed trigger finger.

Balance - It should sit in my hand in firing position with a loose grip. This has fallen off of most shooters radar as we moved from revolver to auto loader but is still relevant in my opinion.

Weight - I prefer the heaviest pistol that I can comfortably carry. Weight helps tremendously with follow up shots. I have of late been going back to a full/mid sized piece since my EDC for quite a while has been a KelTec P32. This is due to wardrobe lifestyle issues.

Reliability - If it malfunctions once in 100 rounds and cannot be remedied, I won't carry it. 100% is what I bet my life on.

Comfort - Am I comfortable with caliber, round count, aforementioned weight. Is it concealable. 

Accuracy - Let's be real here. Stats say defensive encounters are about 7 yards, I could put a case of rounds in an FBI Q at 7 yards with the worst pistol I've ever shot.

Practice - Practice, Practice, MORE PRACTICE. nothing beats more rounds down range.

these all overlap and I couldn't pick any as most important. everything is a trade off, if we knew we for certain we needed a gun we'd take a rifle or stay home. That is a generalization as one might choose a handgun for maneuverability or concealment) 

[deerslayer]

1.  It must run

2.  It must run dirty

3.  Small enough to carry, big enough to shoot - I despise pocket guns except for the rarest of occasions and even a non-XMacro 365 is too small for my tastes (I can hear the rocks coming at me).  I would like to be able to take it to the local IDPA match and be competitive with it (in a non-BUG/pocket gun division).  

4.  Has to be easy to shoot accurately.  Yes, the average gunfight is two shots at six feet or whatever, but average means there must have been higher round count gunfights and longer distance gunfights (see Eli Dicken).  The guy who gets hit by lightning doesn’t want to hear about stats and odds. 

5.  Has to use a legitimate defensive round (at least .38 or 9mm).  More rocks coming my way, but I have no need for a .380.  Yes, I’m sure somebody’s grandfather once decked a cape buffalo with an 85 grain Silvertip, but that doesn’t make it prudent to buffalo hunt with one.  Over and over again, I’ve seen .380s do things that left me unimpressed.  I can hide a Glock 43 or a J-frame pocket gun about as well as I can hide a .380 and if it’s my ideal small enough to carry/big enough to shoot gun I described above, a .380 makes absolutely no sense.  Don’t even get me started on the .32s. 
 

6.   Call me a pansy or a poof, but I see no need for an unnecessarily loud carry gun.  No comp or full-house .357 for me.  I’m hoping to keeps my wits in a would-be gunfight and I doubt eating a flash-bang will help.  
 

These features are what guide my carry gun choices.  My carry gun over the past few years has been either a Glock 48 or a Springfield EMP4 in an IWB holster, but I’m about to start carrying one of the smaller Staccatos with (gasp!) a red dot.  

Edited Monday at 11:12 PM by deerslayer

[jeff43]

I carry a Glock 26 95% of the time, J frame some also. I like the option of bigger capacity mags for the 26, 15, 17,33 rounds. I just traded for a Glock 43X , so I’m gonna find a good holster for it (OWB and maybe a paddle so I can take it off and put it back on quickly when getting to work and leaving to go home) and carry it to see how I like it. I work in the Murfreesboro area, so the way the world is now, and gangs you may need several rounds.

Also have some model 19’s and and a 20 and other wheel gun options.

Just my thoughts.

[train 45]

A lot of good points to consider. 

 I have fired my 44, 7.5" Blackhawk in the dark, and couldn't see enough to follow up or know if I hit any thing. Muzzle flash is fun when you're plinking but could be real trouble when seeing is everything. 

Somebody mentioned an excessive volume is unwanted.  If you've ever fired a gun indoors you know how loud it is. Even with good ear muffs it will surprise you.  With out ear protection you'll be deaf for hours.  They don't show that in the movies.

[papa61]

I will chime in on two points. First is mouse guns. I have small hands so I get a good grip on everything except my baby browning. I consider them as get away pistols, not fighting guns. Second, Although I have zero personal experience with magnums in the dark I have read shooting reports from back when the highway patrol used 357 mag almost exclusively nationwide. Most reported they didn't see a flash nor hear the bang. Physiology  experts relate it to the tunnel vision and audio suppression we get in fight or flight mode. If you've ever had the experience you know you ears stop up like you've driven up a mountain. It's hard to train out of but most will blink as the round goes off anyway. I have only read one report of someone being blinded and deafened firing a 357 at night. That was a (foolish) warning shot as the trespassers ran away.

OK 3 points. I am really trying to embrace the poly framed pistol. it's fine with the pocket pistols but with a full sized slide it's out of balance. I really want to carry my double stack PT845 but it doesn't feel as good as my 1911. I also want the option of DA/SA with cocked and locked or decock option. I have a PT945 but it has 8 round mags. 

[papa61]

4 hours ago, deerslayer said:

1.  It must run

2.  It must run dirty

3.  Small enough to carry, big enough to shoot - I despise pocket guns except for the rarest of occasions and even a non-XMacro 365 is too small for my tastes (I can hear the rocks coming at me).  I would like to be able to take it to the local IDPA match and be competitive with it (in a non-BUG/pocket gun division).  

4.  Has to be easy to shoot accurately.  Yes, the average gunfight is two shots at six feet or whatever, but average means there must have been higher round count gunfights and longer distance gunfights (see Eli Dicken).  The guy who gets hit by lightning doesn’t want to hear about stats and odds. 

5.  Has to use a legitimate defensive round (at least .38 or 9mm).  More rocks coming my way, but I have no need for a .380.  Yes, I’m sure somebody’s grandfather once decked a cape buffalo with an 85 grain Silvertip, but that doesn’t make it prudent to buffalo hunt with one.  Over and over again, I’ve seen .380s do things that left me unimpressed.  I can hide a Glock 43 or a J-frame pocket gun about as well as I can hide a .380 and if it’s my ideal small enough to carry/big enough to shoot gun I described above, a .380 makes absolutely no sense.  Don’t even get me started on the .32s. 
 

6.   Call me a pansy or a poof, but I see no need for an unnecessarily loud carry gun.  No comp or full-house .357 for me.  I’m hoping to keeps my wits in a would-be gunfight and I doubt eating a flash-bang will help.  
 

These features are what guide my carry gun choices.  My carry gun over the past few years has been either a Glock 48 or a Springfield EMP4 in an IWB holster, but I’m about to start carrying one of the smaller Staccatos with (gasp!) a red dot.  

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. So I have no rocks to throw. I think we see a lot alike here. Different conclusions based on different comfort levels. I'd assume you have larger hands than I. Based on your exclusions and my very small hands. Buying gloves is a test of my very limited patience. Thick hands, short fingers. Grip circumference is very important to me, moreso than any other dimension. Trigger reach is second. Can we start seeing why I prefer shooting SA?

I do have an odd view in that I see a difference between a defensive pistol and a fighting pistol. It's a fine line easy to define but hard to put into use.

[Thearmededucator]

12 hours ago, papa61 said:

I will chime in on two points. First is mouse guns. I have small hands so I get a good grip on everything except my baby browning. I consider them as get away pistols, not fighting guns. Second, Although I have zero personal experience with magnums in the dark I have read shooting reports from back when the highway patrol used 357 mag almost exclusively nationwide. Most reported they didn't see a flash nor hear the bang. Physiology  experts relate it to the tunnel vision and audio suppression we get in fight or flight mode. If you've ever had the experience you know you ears stop up like you've driven up a mountain. It's hard to train out of but most will blink as the round goes off anyway. I have only read one report of someone being blinded and deafened firing a 357 at night. That was a (foolish) warning shot as the trespassers ran away.

OK 3 points. I am really trying to embrace the poly framed pistol. it's fine with the pocket pistols but with a full sized slide it's out of balance. I really want to carry my double stack PT845 but it doesn't feel as good as my 1911. I also want the option of DA/SA with cocked and locked or decock option. I have a PT945 but it has 8 round mags. 

One thing to keep in mind, those Highway Patrol revolvers were generally N frames with barrels considerably longer than CCW guns, so its not an apples to apples comparison.

I fully agree there is a line between defensive and fighting pistols.

[papa61]

N frame without full underlug, not ported. A lot were 4 inch and most from what I recall issued full power loads. Still a lot of muzzle flash even from a 6 inch. I've owned a 6in 357 and they are a handful 4in was not much worse. I have a Taurus 608 factory ported and it is much easier to shoot but I'm sure those little tiny holes make a lot of flash. Nope, wouldn't want to chance that in a nightfight. I was only recalling what I have read. Lightweight 357s are not fun, I also owned a DAO 2in 5 rounder and hated shooting it even with lighter 38SPL loads. All that and I'd be fine carrying my 608 with full loads during daylight. And with this constant ringing in my left ear I don't think it would bother me during a gunfight. The little Taurus CIA/650 I had would give me pause outside the 7 yard mark with ANY load. I love Taurus but it was not one of their better ones.

I also once knew a guy who was a recoil addict. He reloaded some of my spent brass back then. I'd never do that again. Had powder burns up my arm. Point being, everyone has a comfort level. Elmer Keith ran some pretty stout stuff through some relatively light revolvers. 

S&W Highway patrolman WIKI history

[chances R]

deerslayer makes some good points, but I disagree on caliber selection as a blanket statement.  Profieicency is of utmost importance.  Lack of strength or skill may make a smaller caliber, even a .22 the most logical choice.  If a new shooter, practice time and comfort with a smaller caliber with good shot placement is much more effective than a miss with a larger caliber.  Once one is more experienced, a larger caliber may be in order.  If one is intimidated by recoil, etc than they are much less likely to have any gun available for immediate use.  Bad guys are likely to flee upon the first sight of a firearm regardless of caliber without a shot fired.  If not accuracy is king.  I have yet to have anyone volunteer to hand-hold targets for me downrange while I shoot .22's.

[papa61]

50 minutes ago, chances R said:

deerslayer makes some good points, but I disagree on caliber selection as a blanket statement.  Profieicency is of utmost importance.  Lack of strength or skill may make a smaller caliber, even a .22 the most logical choice.  If a new shooter, practice time and comfort with a smaller caliber with good shot placement is much more effective than a miss with a larger caliber.  Once one is more experienced, a larger caliber may be in order.  If one is intimidated by recoil, etc than they are much less likely to have any gun available for immediate use.  Bad guys are likely to flee upon the first sight of a firearm regardless of caliber without a shot fired.  If not accuracy is king.  I have yet to have anyone volunteer to hand-hold targets for me downrange while I shoot .22's.

My sister is 70, has arthritis in her wrists and she ran the CCW course with a 22 and that's what she carries. She also has the top up barrel so she doesn't have to rack the slide. That's just her comfort levels. I would have picked the same pistol in 25 acp simply because it's a little more reliable being rimless. Point is quite relevant from where I sit. I don't see her ever moving up in size or caliber. Getting her to carry is going to have to suffice.

[deerslayer]

3 hours ago, chances R said:

deerslayer makes some good points, but I disagree on caliber selection as a blanket statement.  Profieicency is of utmost importance.  Lack of strength or skill may make a smaller caliber, even a .22 the most logical choice.  If a new shooter, practice time and comfort with a smaller caliber with good shot placement is much more effective than a miss with a larger caliber.  Once one is more experienced, a larger caliber may be in order.  If one is intimidated by recoil, etc than they are much less likely to have any gun available for immediate use.  Bad guys are likely to flee upon the first sight of a firearm regardless of caliber without a shot fired.  If not accuracy is king.  I have yet to have anyone volunteer to hand-hold targets for me downrange while I shoot .22's.

Makes perfect sense and I agree, but I was talking about a carry gun for ME.  

[chances R]

4 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

Makes perfect sense and I agree, but I was talking about a carry gun for ME.  

Then I agree completely....for thee and me. 

[pop pop]

Must be comfortable and have confidence in "whatever" you choose. When you pick a handgun up, and you say to yourself WOW, this thing feels good in my hand, go for it. I pocket carry a 2" 7 shot revolver, which works for me at home and on the road. I practice often.  

My chosen pistols, SW MP 9 MM IWB, must be carried differently. 

The idea is to first carry, and then if forced too, to stop a serious threat to you or your family's wellbeing. 

Everyone has their own preferences, and mine are not necessarily yours. Ant America Great! We can all choose and do.

[papa61]

36 minutes ago, pop pop said:

Must be comfortable and have confidence in "whatever" you choose. When you pick a handgun up, and you say to yourself WOW, this thing feels good in my hand, go for it. I pocket carry a 2" 7 shot revolver, which works for me at home and on the road. I practice often.  

My chosen pistols, SW MP 9 MM IWB, must be carried differently. 

The idea is to first carry, and then if forced too, to stop a serious threat to you or your family's wellbeing. 

Everyone has their own preferences, and mine are not necessarily yours. Ant America Great! We can all choose and do.

This is what I'm getting at. That WOW, this feels good. I think if everyone had the opportunity to train and shoot with any pistol available before we buy there would be a lot less resales. If you look at the classifieds and GB as well as the used section in your local dealer you see a lot of "not quite" handguns for sale. I know there are flippers and collectors who just want a change but we are faced with the constant biggest, best, newest in design, caliber, safety, whatever. Look at the furor a couple years back on the new "carry" caliber. The do all, be all, end all carry pistol bullet. It has dropped off the radar in the circles I travel. My favorite carry pistol is heavy, there was never an option for alloy frame. If it had a polymer frame it wouldn't feel as good in the hand and definitely wouldn't be as easy to shoot. I'd like a bigger mag but that would throw the grip size and trigger reach off. So there we are in the compromise zone again. 
And I apologize in advance for offending, but the G pistols are, um, ugly. That is MY OPINION not yours, if you like it and it works for you it shouldn't matter. But many will buy what they are told is "the best" by salespeople or buddies or some influencer rather than take the time to shop and find that great feeling comfort zone sidearm. Truly, that is fine with me. It keeps the manufacturers and dealers on their toes to make more. But it's detrimental to the new shooter who may now own something they will never be comfortable with.

Yep, I'm a machine nut, I love machines, mechanical stuff. Like Indian Larry I want to see the machanicalness of it. I like metal pistols and wooden grips. I see the beauty in the design and machining and feel the artistry of the build. So while I own and use poly framed pistols, they will never be my top choice. Not going to get into the design aspect here but this is part of why I LIKE what I like. I own better looking pistols than my favorite, I own higher mag capacity pistols, lighter pistols, but the last one you'd want to see come out of my holster if you were a threat is the one that fits me, works, and is loaded with proper ammo. At that point, magazine capacity, weight, looks, style, nothing would make an attacker's life more pleasant. When I grip this one, it falls into place, everything fits correctly. When I squeeze the trigger it breaks clean and consistent and goes bang, every time. It puts the round where I point it. When using the sights for 25 yd shots, it hits point of aim. I've had two of these and both have been just a joy (lost the first one in a divorce). Only one failure which was traced back to dirty ammo. So yeah, I am quite comfy with it. And my little pocket pistol is as good just smaller. 

If you want to know what handgun is now my newest biggest bestest want to have, see Kimber 2K11. If it fits my hand it could dethrone my current fav but it's doubtful. I'm still saving because I think it's gorgeous.

[deerslayer]

18 minutes ago, papa61 said:

If you want to know what handgun is now my newest biggest bestest want to have, see Kimber 2K11. If it fits my hand it could dethrone my current fav but it's doubtful. I'm still saving because I think it's gorgeous.

Assuming Kimber didn’t get all proprietary with it, you could put a 2011 medium or short trigger in it to mitigate any short fingers/trigger reaching problems caused by the fatter 2011 grip.  If shopping for made-in-Bangladesh rubber gloves at Autozone, I’m looking for XL, but I have a short trigger in my 2011 because I like to shoot with almost just the tip of my finger.  Putting a short trigger in the gun was easier than breaking this decades-old habit.  

[papa61]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

Assuming Kimber didn’t get all proprietary with it, you could put a 2011 medium or short trigger in it to mitigate any short fingers/trigger reaching problems caused by the fatter 2011 grip.  If shopping for made-in-Bangladesh rubber gloves at Autozone, I’m looking for XL, but I have a short trigger in my 2011 because I like to shoot with almost just the tip of my finger.  Putting a short trigger in the gun was easier than breaking this decades-old habit.  

No idea what it will actually feel like. Medium is a good fit on my hands but most gloves will have the fingers too long. I had a Para P14 that I really liked, I've picked up a few other double stack 1911s and said a hard nope. Got all excited for one in 10mm and figured out really quick it would break my thumb since having my finger on the trigger meant the backstrap was in the joint of my thumb and not the web.

[deerslayer]

11 minutes ago, papa61 said:

No idea what it will actually feel like. Medium is a good fit on my hands but most gloves will have the fingers too long. I had a Para P14 that I really liked, I've picked up a few other double stack 1911s and said a hard nope. Got all excited for one in 10mm and figured out really quick it would break my thumb since having my finger on the trigger meant the backstrap was in the joint of my thumb and not the web.

The Para is simply a 1911 with a wider grip, but true 2011 style guns have a modular grip that is usually slightly narrower than Paras, Rock Islands, etc.  I suspect that was half the point of even creating the 2011.  I bet a 2011 with a short trigger would be a game changer for you.  I wish you could try mine.  

[papa61]

21 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

The Para is simply a 1911 with a wider grip, but true 2011 style guns have a modular grip that is usually slightly narrower than Paras, Rock Islands, etc.  I suspect that was half the point of even creating the 2011.  I bet a 2011 with a short trigger would be a game changer for you.  I wish you could try mine.  

we are forever hopeful. I am excited about the 2K11, it is a big chunk of change so it will not be very soon but I'm putting money back. Hope I'm not disappointed. It was a Rock Island 10mm I looked at and they are just HUGE.