Church Security Team

[Defender]

I remember a thread similar to this a while back, but I couldn’t find it. I really have issues using the search feature sometimes.  Anyway, just wanted to say what I’ve been doing and see what some of yall might be doing as church security team members.  I recently joined my team and our church has a policy that security team members must undergo formal training before becoming a member and if being an armed member, must undergo additional firearms training including qualifying at the range. Oh and also CPR and AED training. We utilized Michael Mann Security Services for all of it.  Michael Mann is a retired Metro Nashville LEO, and he led all of our training, including the range part. I found the training to be good and thorough.  He included the required training for the State Armed Guard permit in case anyone wanted to get that as well, although it’s not required to be on the team as we are volunteers not employees.  The range was all the way down in Woodbury.  I found i learned a thing or two from him at the range, even though I’ve been shooting, either for work or privately,  probably for close to 50 years.  The range drills were realistic and up close, but really good.  By the way, I scored 98 out of 100, which I thought was not bad for someone who hasn’t shot much in the last year or so. I have shot with my Sig P-365 Spectre a few times with the Holosun EPS Carry, but hadn’t yet shot it with my newer SCS Carry.  Loved shooting with it and it shot way better than I did.  The one shot I dropped was still a hit in the dead center of the targets throat! LOL.  
I am curious what yall are doing in this arena?

[Thearmededucator]

Sounds like you guys have a pretty good start. I would recommend finding a Stop the Bleed course (they are free) for all members.

My church lacks an official team, but I have done a few courses on my own. 

I would highly recommend taking Ed Monk's Active Shooter Response class for anyone in a similar position. It is extremely eye opening and practically oriented.

[BigK]

I've heard of Michael Mann. He came out to a friend of mine's church to do some training. He had good things to say.

My church doesn't have an official security team. There's a handful of us who know who carries and has a mindset toward security though. After talking it over amongst ourselves, I recently scheduled some training for the group through Sentinel Training Services. I anticipated us splitting the cost, but we wanted to do the training at church, so we had to get permission. I asked and my pastor was so overwhelming in favor of it and even insisted the church pay for it.

Without an official team, there's not really any guidance or oversight in this area. I see both positives and negatives in that regard. Without an official team, I was told the church doesn't have to pay for extra insurance. We'd be personally on the hook for our actions instead of the church. However, by paying for the class, it probably makes it official likely puts the church on the hook if something bad were to happen. That may be a good thing and an official security team may come out of it.

This instructor is Doug Long, a former TBI guy and what I like the most is that one if his roles in his 30 years was CID. He has worked countless cases involving officer shootings. The class uses a training pistol to score hits during video scenarios on a screen. More important to me and the guys is that the instructor spends time after the drills coaching, advising, and critiquing from a safety and legal perspective. He has special training in CRASE (Citizens Response to Active Shooter Events), which sounds like exactly what we need.

I'll make a separate post after the class and link it here for anyone interested.

On another note, I was really worried how my church opening a day care would affect carrying a firearm on the premises. I never got a definitive answer that made me feel like the matter was settled. I plan to ask the instructor what he thinks.

Edited November 13 by BigK

[NoBanStan]

So this is a really interesting topic because our church is currently reviewing our "safety team" policy. We're sticking with that title because calling it a security team may have some legal ramifications and require licensing for the team members. Currently we are requiring that armed members of the team must have a TN issued enhanced carry permit and we're also advising the team members to look into pre-paid legal such as USLawShield. Our issue however is that regardless of which provider you choose, the paperwork basically allows the provider to get out of support very easily. For every positive, there's a big negative. Things like superb lawyers, but you don't get to choose or liability at an additional cost, but they can opt out of paying that.

God willing, our safety team will only have to deal with cuts, bruises and someone falling etc. But... failing to plan is planning to fail.... so we're building out an EAP (emergency action plan). Even then, documenting what you will do could put you in a legal bind if someone fails to follow it. We're not a paid force, we're a bunch of folks who have a bit of sheepdog in us.

This is also why we employee local LEO to be there on Sunday and Wednesday nights. We basically tell the officer that our job is to support them. We give them a radio and watch our zones/patrol as needed. But step 1 is to always loop them in. But yet again, there's the negative to that. if the officer needs support and we act, even on his command, he could probably help to clear us from felony wrong doing, but we're still gonna be liable from a civil sense.

[Defender]

14 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

So this is a really interesting topic because our church is currently reviewing our "safety team" policy. We're sticking with that title because calling it a security team may have some legal ramifications and require licensing for the team members. Currently we are requiring that armed members of the team must have a TN issued enhanced carry permit and we're also advising the team members to look into pre-paid legal such as USLawShield. Our issue however is that regardless of which provider you choose, the paperwork basically allows the provider to get out of support very easily. For every positive, there's a big negative. Things like superb lawyers, but you don't get to choose or liability at an additional cost, but they can opt out of paying that.

God willing, our safety team will only have to deal with cuts, bruises and someone falling etc. But... failing to plan is planning to fail.... so we're building out an EAP (emergency action plan). Even then, documenting what you will do could put you in a legal bind if someone fails to follow it. We're not a paid force, we're a bunch of folks who have a bit of sheepdog in us.

This is also why we employee local LEO to be there on Sunday and Wednesday nights. We basically tell the officer that our job is to support them. We give them a radio and watch our zones/patrol as needed. But step 1 is to always loop them in. But yet again, there's the negative to that. if the officer needs support and we act, even on his command, he could probably help to clear us from felony wrong doing, but we're still gonna be liable from a civil sense.

I also got US Law Shield on the recommendation of Michael Mann.

[pop pop]

If something happens on church property it will come back to the church, so I have been told.

I started a Safety Team, Unarmed, at my last congregation several years ago. We had to remain unarmed for insurance and city requirement purposes also. If armed, the City had regulations we had to meet and other restrictions on bonding and liability insurance. The City had off duty Police officers one could hire but were 100.00 per service (approx 1600.00 per month) years ago. We were a church who our leadership did not have the money to do that. The congregation was paying for a newish building and supporting other preaching in other places, and did not decide to curtail either for an armed team.  

We had 17 members to start, all volunteer, and several concealed carried. Had one member open carried on occasion. He was not on the team. We handled several occurrences and disturbances during the 8 years I was there.

I have since moved to a church nearer to our home and we now have 2 who stay in the hallways and lock doors after services start and keep watch in the halls and out the doors to our parking lots, one on each side of the building. I am either an usher or greeter in my rotation.  We have about 180 to 200 who attend on a regular basis and several men do conceal carry but have no organized team.  The deacon in charge of the duty assignments knows I church carry, so I guess that is why I was drafted, at age 76, to stay in the entrance from time to time (once a month for 1 week). I just pray if I ever need to rise to the occasion, God will be with me, and I will be successful.  

Good luck your team and I will pray they won't need your services but do know a team of some kind is sure needed in every church. Thats a sad sentiment for our day-in-time guys. 

Edited to add; I am a member of Armed Citizens Legal Defense Net. 360 978 5200

Edited November 13 by pop pop

[NoBanStan]

45 minutes ago, Defender said:

I also got US Law Shield on the recommendation of Michael Mann.

I've been looking between them and CCW Safe. Both have their pros and cons. USLawShield is definitely more affordable but if i recall correctly, didn't cover liability (or at least not included) and you don't get to select your lawyer. From reading online, the people who have used it said that they came in and did their job but it was so distant that weren't a person, more of an object.

USCCA is out, I've heard horror stories.

[peejman]

You can also get a personal umbrella liability policy as an add-on to your homeowners, usually for a modest rate. It'll cover more than these gun specific policies. 

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, peejman said:

You can also get a personal umbrella liability policy as an add-on to your homeowners, usually for a modest rate. It'll cover more than these gun specific policies. 

Peejman can you give a little more info on the umbrella insurance if you don’t mind? What yours covers more or less. Have debated getting some for myself and didn’t even think for  gun specific anything. 

[Elmo Fudpucker]

Our church runs around 400 Sunday morning, and we have about 40 guys total on rotating teams so we are on security every other week. About 30 of us on the teams have our carry permits. Our church has Brotherhood Mutual Insurance, which fully insures security team members for liability, medical, legal, etc with a $1 million cap (if my memory serves me right). It is very good coverage. The insurance requires permits for anyone carrying on security for them to be covered. We had a rep from the insurance come out about 10 months ago and fill us in on all that the insurance covers and it is outstanding.

Our church has had cameras installed that cover every entrance/exit and most of our campus. We usually have one team person doing nothing but watching cameras, one on each main entrance, one roving the parking lot via golf cart, and one in the auditorium all with radios. We also have a designated rapid response team. In case of medical emergency, we are blessed to have a number of nurses/medical people that attend our church. We also make sure to lock our main entrance doors usually about 5 mins after our services start and just let people in who are running late.

The guy who is leading our security team is really working to increasingly get us better organized. I think he's doing a great job so far. He shoots monthly with a few others in a local amateur competitive event. Another guy in our church has made available a range he has on his property for anyone on the team that wants to go through a basic modified FBI qualification course just to evaluate ourselves. He's working on trying to get us more organized training, but there isn't much available in our area. We have a quarterly meeting to discuss any security issues.

I am glad that our guys seem to all take security seriously, and our church is appreciative of it. Of course we have people with all different levels of firearm proficiency. I am retired Army so firearm handling, shooting, and safety are pretty second nature for me.

Its neat to hear what other churches are doing.

[45guy]

We have had a security team for 10 or 12 years. We average 8 per service 4 teams so only serving once a month. The local DA recommended we hire a uniformed cop to protect everyone from lawsuits. I think the county charges 30 bucks a hour for a uniformed cop. Be careful about liability. The local DA should be able to give good advice on protecting yourself and your church. I have my TN armed guard so that helps with some protection, but having a cop there helps a lot. We do a LE appreciation day and invite all the LE and serve them dinner and proved gifts. 

Edited November 15 by 45guy

[peejman]

21 hours ago, Scotty said:

Peejman can you give a little more info on the umbrella insurance if you don’t mind? What yours covers more or less. Have debated getting some for myself and didn’t even think for  gun specific anything. 

It's just extra liability coverage above normal. Call your agent and ask what's covered and what's not. 

I got it mostly for/because of my kids. If something bad were to happen and i got sued, the $500k limit doesn't go very far.  

On that topic, the $1M coverage limit for a church security team seems very low, especially for an organization. 

A friend had a girl on the back of his motorcycle. The rear caliper broke, locked the wheel, and they went down. She got rashed pretty bad.  She sued him for $2M.  

[pop pop]

I don't know any homeowner's insurance that will cover liability for a self-defense shooting either on your property of off your property. If you are sued, you are on your own the way I was told by Farm Bureau here in Murfreesboro TN. 

[peejman]

1 hour ago, pop pop said:

I don't know any homeowner's insurance that will cover liability for a self-defense shooting either on your property of off your property. If you are sued, you are on your own the way I was told by Farm Bureau here in Murfreesboro TN. 

If you're not found criminally liable, you can't be sued in civil court in TN.  

Edited November 15 by peejman

[Scotty]

Thanks for the response. My work finds me inside peoples homes, I’ve thought of getting it in the case that someone were to get injured or falsely accuse me of something inappropriate. I also do the occasion event job involving alcohol for some extra spending money and have thought that would protect me if someone got into some sort of accident and blanket sued everyone from the top down. The firearm portion is enough that I’ll heavily consider it when I shop my home owners insurance in the upcoming months. Thank you for for your input. 

[peejman]

13 hours ago, Scotty said:

Thanks for the response. My work finds me inside peoples homes, I’ve thought of getting it in the case that someone were to get injured or falsely accuse me of something inappropriate. I also do the occasion event job involving alcohol for some extra spending money and have thought that would protect me if someone got into some sort of accident and blanket sued everyone from the top down. The firearm portion is enough that I’ll heavily consider it when I shop my home owners insurance in the upcoming months. Thank you for for your input. 

Also ask about item or category coverage limits for your homeowners.  A minor gun/art/jewelry/instrument/tool collection will likely exceed the coverage limit for those and require a separate policy if you want them insured for full value. 

Make sure they explain "replacement value" coverage limits. 

For example...   A 2000sqft house burns to the point where it's better to bulldoze it and start over. 

Building a modest house will cost $200/sqft so $400k. 

Does the policy cover clearing the site ($25k)? Is that cost included in the total number?  If not, then you only have $375k left to replace your $400k house.

What about the stuff inside (see above)?

[Defender]

i had to add a rider to make sure my guns were covered to the level i required.  I need to check with my agent to see if i have any coverage if i have to defend with a firearm.

[Pain103]

On 11/13/2024 at 11:42 AM, BigK said:

I've heard of Michael Mann. He came out to a friend of mine's church to do some training. He had good things to say.

My church doesn't have an official security team. There's a handful of us who know who carries and has a mindset toward security though. After talking it over amongst ourselves, I recently scheduled some training for the group through Sentinel Training Services. I anticipated us splitting the cost, but we wanted to do the training at church, so we had to get permission. I asked and my pastor was so overwhelming in favor of it and even insisted the church pay for it.

Without an official team, there's not really any guidance or oversight in this area. I see both positives and negatives in that regard. Without an official team, I was told the church doesn't have to pay for extra insurance. We'd be personally on the hook for our actions instead of the church. However, by paying for the class, it probably makes it official likely puts the church on the hook if something bad were to happen. That may be a good thing and an official security team may come out of it.

This instructor is Doug Long, a former TBI guy and what I like the most is that one if his roles in his 30 years was CID. He has worked countless cases involving officer shootings. The class uses a training pistol to score hits during video scenarios on a screen. More important to me and the guys is that the instructor spends time after the drills coaching, advising, and critiquing from a safety and legal perspective. He has special training in CRASE (Citizens Response to Active Shooter Events), which sounds like exactly what we need.

I'll make a separate post after the class and link it here for anyone interested.

On another note, I was really worried how my church opening a day care would affect carrying a firearm on the premises. I never got a definitive answer that made me feel like the matter was settled. I plan to ask the instructor what he thinks.

Doug is a good guy. I attended some active shooter training with him prior to his retirement. I think you will like it.

Edited Saturday at 01:49 AM by Pain103

[BigK]

1 hour ago, Pain103 said:

Doug is a good guy. I attended some active shooter training with him prior to his retirement. I think you will like it.

I'm really looking forward to it, thanks for the endorsement. I got that feeling just from meeting him at a Men's Conference for our church.

[Patriotsson]

We call ours a "Safety" team. 

[chances R]

On 11/14/2024 at 7:29 PM, peejman said:

If you're not found criminally liable, you can't be sued in civil court in TN. 

I believe that is only true if the case is adjudicated, meaning it went to trial.  If simply not charged or tried civil case can still be brought.

My HO ins gave me an answer of “it depends” and given the endless circumstances, that seems right.  That’s why I’m a CCA member.  Better than depending on HO. If they simply pay for any cleanup and property/ medical issues I would be satisfied.  Hope never to find out.

[pop pop]

Farm Bureau told me a shooting is a "willful" act, and they only pay for accidental happenings, accidents (falling) or acts of God(hail damage or tree falling, tornado etc) fire or theft.  My guns are covered, for theft, up to 2,000.00. Guys that is 2 to 5 guns. Not much coverage. 

To my knowledge, they don't have any additional writer policy for Self Defense coverage. Will say I haven't talked to them recently; this was about 5 years ago. They called me in for an insurance overview and to tell me they no longer pay full amount on roof replacement, and they depreciate the value out over time, plus we have a 1,000.00 deductible as of then. Also, my premium went up. I had a nice day, that day! 

Edited to add; If you are involved in a S D shooting, at church, home, or on the street, "If it is not cut and dried S D", most probably you will end up losing about everything, for sure if it gets blown out of proportions. Even if you have one of the big 5 S D insurance programs. Very serious business. Total Last Resort! Do not be trigger happy guys. 

Edited Sunday at 02:43 PM by pop pop