Don't talk to the police?

[Guest Ggun]

I got bad news for ya. You ARE going to be arrested. The cops will question you at the scene, but you are going to go with them to the station as well. You may not be charged, but they aren't going to stand there in your living room over a dead body, listen to YOUR version of events and then say "Well OK I guess we'll be going. Have a nice night." and then drag the dead body out.

I'm not advocating refusing to answer questions. I have always been told to make the statement that "I was in fear for my life and intend to cooperate fully with the police. I would like to seek medical attention and will make a full statement after I've spoken with my lawyer and been checked for injuries I might have sustained."

It's up to you what you want to do, but I deal with this situation from time to time at work and I also hear the what ifs frequently. Every MPD officer, Sheriff's deputy, lawyer, permit instructor, and investigator I know tells me to do exactly what I have stated. Why? Because it's what they do. When an LEO is in a shooting do you think they give their statement right there at the scene? Nope.

Not every individual will be arrested. If you are arrested you are charged. I'm not quite sure what you mean by arrested without a charge being placed against you.

I doubt any of the individuals you speak of, save maybe some LEOs, have actually been through a shooting.

I'm getting inconsistent statements from you. First you say you aren't advocating not answering questions then you have this preset wording you are going to use, obstensibly to halt questioning until you have an attorney present. Are you going to give the LEO the basic who, what, where, when, why that I spoke of or are you going with the boilerplate statement above and not speak until you have an attorney present?

In my scenario I covered everything necessary for the LEO and simply asked to give a complete statement after I calmed down some and simply ask to have my attorney present when I do that. That is what most LEO do. Of course, they give additional statements to IO, but basically the same.

I gave you all an easy scenario, an unknown who broke out a window, intruded into my home, pointed a gun at me to kill me before I shot. You think I ought to use the boilerplate language above and not tell LEO that the guy was going to kill me with the gun pointed at me?

It's human nature to say "he was gonna kill me with that gun pointed at me, the one right there in his hand" not "I was in fear of my life and I intend to cooperate fully once I retain an attorney."

[Oh Shoot]

I got bad news for ya. You ARE going to be arrested. ...

Well, you are probably going to be detained for questioning for a while. Maybe even overnight as a guest of the city or county.

But you aren't "under" arrest until you've been charged with a crime. Can be rather important on various applications down the road ("have you ever been arrested or convicted...").

I didn't try to look it up, but is it 24 hours you can be "held" before being either charged or let go?

Of course, even released, charges can always be filed later. They don't have to charge you within the 24 hours (or whatever it is).

The above is my understanding of procedure, if wrong, one of you LEOs please correct.

- OS

Edited May 6, 2009 by OhShoot

[Punisher84]

What is your area of expertise that you feel so inclined to doubt that could happen? How many shootings have you been the detail Officer on?

Don't have an area of expertise in that particular part of it. Never been a detail officer at a HOME shooting. Worked with MPD on a few crime scenes and secondary crime scenes though. I just know what I have been told by LEO friends for what their procedure is here.

And that may work well for you. Just because someone told you that it doesn’t mean it will work for the rest of us. But you are beating this guy over the head with the idea that there is only one way to handle this situation and it is by God your way.

I'm not beating anyone. I'm rationally explaining my side and my point of view, that a few others here happen to agree with. Everyone is entitled to make their own choice at that time.

You say that you deal with this situation from time to time at work? You deal with suspects that have been shot by homeowners from time to time? Are you a police Officer; if not what do you do?

I have dealt with several people who have been shot by different types of people from time to time. I'm an 8 dollar an hour security guard remember Dave?

Good grief, why is it that any time there is a question about the cops or what they would do it has to turn so negative?

I think the only people that are negative here have been Ggun, who has shown in the past he'd rather engage people to illicit a reaction rather than state his case and answer questions, and you who chose to call me out (again) and not the other people who agree with me.

I'll say this again for the last time. My opinions of what I would do in a self-defense shooting are based on what I have been told by friends that are lawyers, LEOs, and permit instructors.

I'm also for the record not going to derail yet another thread by getting into an argument with you Dave. If you want to have a civil discussion feel free to pm me and we can discuss differing points of view and areas of expertise, but I'm not going to deal with anything else. It's just not worth my time. And before you get to it, yes I promise not to post your pm.

[Punisher84]

Not every individual will be arrested. If you are arrested you are charged. I'm not quite sure what you mean by arrested without a charge being placed against you.

I doubt any of the individuals you speak of, save maybe some LEOs, have actually been through a shooting.

I'm getting inconsistent statements from you. First you say you aren't advocating not answering questions then you have this preset wording you are going to use, obstensibly to halt questioning until you have an attorney present. Are you going to give the LEO the basic who, what, where, when, why that I spoke of or are you going with the boilerplate statement above and not speak until you have an attorney present?

OK poor choice of words. Let's not say "arrested", let's say placed in cuffs and taken to interview at the station.

The people I speak of are LEOs who deal with shootings everyday. We tend to have alot of those here in Memphis. Most of the permit instructors I know are LEOs as well. Lawyers tend to handle shooting cases as well I've been told.

I don't see how I'm being inconsistent? I never said "Don't say a word", I said I wouldn't advocate making a full statement to the on scene officer 10 minutes after you just took another human beings life, more than likely for the first time. That tends to mess with the mind I hear.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Punisher84

[kwe45919]

So, what have we learned here.....

First off, say as little as possible and try to breif about what happened. Attempt to make note the need to see a doctor ASAP for a "check up" due to the tramatic situation that just occured. Ask to contact a lawyer to help you better relay the situation to LE.

Kinda sum it up??

[DaveTN]

Every MPD officer, Sheriff's deputy, lawyer, permit instructor, and investigator I know tells me to do exactly what I have stated.

I just know what I have been told by LEO friends for what their procedure is here.

I'll say this again for the last time. My opinions of what I would do in a self-defense shooting are based on what I have been told by friends that are lawyers, LEOs, and permit instructors.

Thanks. We are now crystal clear on what you have been told.

What is your area of expertise that you feel so inclined to question what those of us here have to say?

That’s ridiculous and uncalled for. What if he posted he has exactly the same expertise you have….. none?

You have acknowledged that you don’t have any real knowledge on the subject but yet you attack someone for questioning your second hand opinions.

People here have serious questions about what to do in and after a shooting. They would like information that makes sense, and I doubt they are particularly interested in seeing you take up space by going off on someone that dared disagree with you.

I disagree with your “Don’t say anything, and go to the hospital†policy and think it is just bad advice from whoever told it to you. The decision to kill someone and what to do in the aftermath to stay out of court or buried in legal fees requires some legal knowledge. I hope people here are just getting some ideas they can discuss with a criminal defense attorney.

[Guest HexHead]

I'll take my chances with the

'since you asked no you may not search my vehicle' course of action.

Because 99.9999999 percent of the time your not going to have it with

me.

WHY would I want to make some cop's life easier when all he's looking for is some way to screw me over? How do I know he's not going to plant evidence while he's in there? Let's face it, there's only ONE reason they want to search your car, and it's never in your benefit.

[Guest HexHead]

When an LEO is in a shooting do you think they give their statement right there at the scene? Nope.

Nope, they wait for their union rep.

[Punisher84]

...yet you attack someone for questioning your second hand opinions.

...I doubt they are particularly interested in seeing you take up space by going off on someone that dared disagree with you.

Hi pot, I'm kettle.

I disagree with your “Don’t say anything, and go to the hospital†policy and think it is just bad advice from whoever told it to you. The decision to kill someone and what to do in the aftermath to stay out of court or buried in legal fees requires some legal knowledge. I hope people here are just getting some ideas they can discuss with a criminal defense attorney.

I think it's fine that you disgaree with me. Matter of fact it's gonna make my coffee taste better this morning knowing that you, yet again, don't like something I have to say.

I'll stick with what is told to me by the people that deal with this situation everyday in Shelby County, TN. I don't care if Ggun, you, or anyone else here gives a full statement to the cops with the gun still smoking in their hand. It is just not what I'm going to do.

Well...moving on then?

[Guest Ggun]

Well...let's move on to where I expressed the opinion to give a full statement to the cops with a smoking gun in my hand. You can't. In post #46 I said:

"The main factors to relay to LEO, imo, is who, what, when, where, why. In other words, a concise outline of what happened, there is evidence of what happened, there are witnesses to what happened (assuming there are).

[snip]

That's enough->there isn't anything wrong with telling LEO that you are shook up and need some time to calm down before giving a full statement and that you'd like your lawyer there when you do."

You, on the otherhand, in post #49 stated:

"I was in fear for my life and intend to cooperate fully with the police. I would like to seek medical attention and will make a full statement after I've spoken with my lawyer and been checked for injuries I might have sustained."

You keep stating you won't refuse to answer questions but your statement above is a "clam up" statement.

Which is it?

I have laid out exactly what I believe is the best scenario in a self defense situation. The main factors to relay on the scene (who, what, when, where, why), with a full statement after calming down, and with my lawyer.

I have done this for the benefit of discussion for forum members. As citizens we can formulate reasonable explanations to LEO in home invasion self defense shootings without casting LEO as consumate bad people.

I have also cautioned members of the forum that you will have to answer questions and be in contact with different medical personnel who will be writing things down if you insist on going to the hospital.

My hope is that forum members will think and formulate a reasonable response in advance so if a shooting happens members will have some amount of preparation to deal with the situation.

I certainly welcome discussion as this is a very pertinent topic to this forum. But concluding that my suggestions are foolish and misinformed is insulting and contrary to the spirit of the forum.

[Punisher84]

Man I don't think I can be much clearer than what I've already stated to you.

I am all for the cops doing their job. I am all for giving them the full story. I am just not going to do it immediately after a shooting at the scene.

I respect your decision to do as you feel, but you and Dave seem to think I'm the only one who feels this way or has been told this so I'm gonna make a list for you...

In the words of one of the instructors at our local shop, who happens to be a LEO, "DON"T TALK TO THE POLICE". Not until you have talked with an attorney.

Yup, I will be happy to answer your questions after I have been checked out at the hospital and have my attorney present.

Thank you.

Weird this came up...I asked my attorney the same question Tuesday. He said,"keep your mouth shut till I ask you to say something". I thought that was pretty clear advice.

He also said to demand a search warrant if they want to search your car. Not sure about that one, I don't have anything to hide in there...but I don't want to have to put everything back by myself on the side of a highway either.

What I tell peope is, yes you can talk to the police. But don't just bump your gums. Give a brief concise statement about what happened, then ask for an attorney and a trip to the hospital. If you say nothing, then we have to use wits and maybe the bad guys statement to figure out what happened. Then you may get a screwing. Wits are really awful, they see half of what happens, and it may be the wrong part to help you out.

You are basically having/had a heart attack.. (in a nutshell)

Adrenaline dump

Adrenaline Response

Upon being stimulated by fear or anger, the Adrenal medulla may automatically produce the hormone epinephrine (aka adrenaline) directly into the blood stream. This can have various effects on various bodily systems, including:

• Increased heart rate and blood pressure. It is average for a person's pulse to raise to between 200 and 300 beats per minute (bpm). Increased heart rate (above 250 bpm) can cause fainting, and the body may constrict itself into a fetal position in preparation for a coma.
  
• Dilation of the bronchial passages, permitting higher absorption of oxygen.
  
• Dilated pupils to allow more light to enter, and visual exclusion--tunnel vision--occurs, allowing greater focus but resulting in the loss of peripheral vision.
  
• Release of glucose into the bloodstream, generating extra energy by raising the blood sugar level.
  

It is common for an individual to experience auditory exclusion or enhancement. It is also common for individuals to experience an increased pain tolerance, loss of color vision, short term memory loss, decreased fine motor skills, decreased communication skills, decreased coordination.

Psychological Response

The most common experience during tachypsychia is the feeling that time has either increased or slowed down, brought on by the increased brain activity cause by epinephrine, or the severe decrease in brain activity caused by the "catecholamine washout" occurring after the event.

It is common for an individual experiencing tachypsychia to have serious misinterpretations of their surrounding during the events, through a combination of their altered perception of time, as well as transient partial color blindness and tunnel vision. After the irregularly high levels of adrenaline consumed during sympathetic nervous system activation, an individual may display signs and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, and it is common for the person to display extreme emotional lability and fatigue, regardless of their actual physical exertion.

It is possible to manage the "adrenaline dump" still occurring after the event, and it is common for soldiers and martial artists to use tachypsychia in order to increase their performance during stressful situations.

...and if they ask that I would say, "I was involved in a shooting." That would be enough information for them. Also that statement wouldn't seem to imply anything one way or the other.

What is your expertise? I believe it has been asked what your background is?

I have been told this in classes, from instructors, and LEO's the same thing, you in a sense are "buying" time, but there is no law that says you have to answer right then and there without an attorney present. There is a law that states "anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you". I would much rather piss off a LEO than have my words used against me. Any half assed lawyer can argue that he was scared, he was confused, he wanted to be checked out to make sure he was ok, and wanted an attorney present when he made his statements. The premise that "Well he delayed our questioning so he is guilty of something" argument doesn't fly.

Who cares if the health information is brought in, "Patient came in not feeling well, rapid heart rate, sweating, whatever...." Finding was a high level of anxiety. People go to the hospital a lot for anxiety, (and less, just go to the ER and see the cold and headache crowd). I for one, would imagine I would be under a high level of anxiety if I was involved in a shooting.

Also I believe, you can not be denied medical attention, especially if requested. What if you have a heart attach due to the high stress and anxiety? If you happen to live, the lawsuit would be tremendous, you were denied medical attention when you asked for it.

These are the people that seem to feel the same way I do about this. I will add once again a list of MPD officers, Shelby County deputies, Homicide investigators, and permit instructors from one of the top 3 permit certificate issuing schools in the state.

So if it's not for you, don't do it. It will probably work out OK for you. I will go with the side of caution and make my statements when I am calm and have my lawyer present, rather than try to explain away a rambling statement I made at the scene under stress.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Punisher84

[Punisher84]

I have also cautioned members of the forum that you will have to answer questions and be in contact with different medical personnel who will be writing things down if you insist on going to the hospital.

I will address this part directly as well. Yes they will write things down. They will write down your blood pressure, your temperature, your chief complaint of pain, etc.

You have no patient responsiblity to discuss the shooting incident with the physician, nurse, EDT, or triage staff. They are there to check you out and make sure you have not sustained injury that requires medical treatment.

This is my area of expertise. I've been dealing with assault victims, shooting victims, rape victims, and standard patients for a few years now. I know what gets asked and what doesn't. I know what legal sends out on subpoenas for information and I know what HIPPA laws protect. I know a few things about securing evidence and securing a crime scene before a 100 people screw it up and I've asked a few questions about incidents a time or two.

So, I think I've validated myself enough. I think I've clearly expressed my views and opinions. At this point if you agree with me or disagree with me I could care less.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Punisher84

[Fallguy]

I have had some technical issues and not been able to log on for a while. So I admit I have read each word of every new post...but let me say a few more things.

I would not suggest going to the hospital JUST to delay talking with the police. But it is very possible being medically evaluated could be a good thing. Anything I say to medical personnel will be medically related...not about the incident. So even if my medical records ended up in court, it's not going to make a difference one way or the other. I would suggest you limit what you say to them as well. But if you don't want to go....don't...about that simple.

I have to disagree with the statement "You will be arrested" or even "You will be detained and/or taken to the PD". I admit at least going to the PD is likely but not a guarantee. I would also be willing to bet how this would be handled from dept to dept would be different, especially based on the size of the dept and/or city. That is one reason I would really love to see the bill I mentioned in post 19 passed.

[Guest sn8kbit]

Wow.

I just read through all of this stuff and only came away with one thought -

Are people really this paranoid of the police?

Mindset is the number one thing while carrying a weapon. If you're not prepared to give a brief statement on an obvious justified shoot, sell your gun and quit carrying for God's sake. Believe it or not, most, not all but most, cops responding to a home invasion - robbery will be on your side, and would high five you if the cameras weren't around.

Yes, you'll most likely be asked to go to the responding precinct office to do a formal statement. No, it won't be in cuffs. Most of the Homicide investigators in Nashville that I know are also very good at talking you down after the adrenaline dump, and are aware that it happens. That said, I'm not saying having an attorney is a bad thing, but clamming up gets you nothing.

Yes, I'm talking from personal experience, No, I won't give the details.

Bottom line, your mindset, training and control are what makes owning/carrying the weapon a defensive tool. If you're not prepared for the end results, you're not prepared to carry period.

out of flashlight batteries.....

[Guest sn8kbit]

As an afterthought -

Yes, if you are eventually mirandized, clam up and get an attorney. Something you said or evidence otherwise gave them cause to do so. Also, any statement prior to the reading of your miranda rights are inadmissable. That said, I've yet to see an officer respond to a shooting, jump out and mirandize everyone there prior to figuring out what was going on.

You fight how you train, so train how you will fight.

there was a little battery left in the old flashlight...

On edit: While most assuredly not to irritate or piss off any trainers that may or may not be reading this thread, I personally don't put stock in the word for word teaching given. A course is given to a general group, and as such, material and suggestions during training are usually given as such. Knowing that most likely 75% (or more) of a given class will never dawn another classroom door, nor will they train or do much more range training, telling them the attorney speil is an absolution of liability on the trainer/school's part. I've had the opportunity to train through various different classes and always come away with "What the heck were they talking about with this [insert questionable statement here]?" There simply seems to be too much "don't do this" during training than "DO this.." for the sake of liability on the school's part. Again, that's just my opinion, backed by various experiences.

Edited May 6, 2009 by sn8kbit

[Punisher84]

Sn8kbit,

I think you're correct on alot of things. Believe me, I'm not trying to deal in absolutes. Upon reflection I shouldn't have made the statement "You will be arrested". That's very likely not true, especially in a clear cut home invasion shooting. I'm just taking that from what a close LEO friend/instructor has told me will msost likely happen.

In dealing with the law and law enforcement nothing is ever going to be the same across the board. You have personal bias, knowledge and lack of knowledge, experience, etc that will come into play with the officers and investigators you deal with throughout the experience. I'm gonna do what I've always done and that is react how I was trained and taught.

Anyway well stated posts.

[Guest sn8kbit]

Don't take my statements pointedly, most are aimed generally. I've dug through quite a few threads in this particular part of the forum and it just seems paranoia is running rampant (Anti-cop, anti-uniform, everyone's out to take my HCP away-damn them all!!). Matter of fact, I made myself a tinfoil hat so's I'm protected while reading them.

If someone wants to clam up after a good shoot and wait until an attorney's present, go for it. I just hate to see folks try to come up with some off the wall justification for personal preference.

[J5684]

As an afterthought -

Also, any statement prior to the reading of your miranda rights are inadmissable.

You might want to rephrase that... Only if you are questioned about the incident at hand and feel you are not free to leave...

"spontaneous utterance" is admissible in court.. If you start to talk when the police arrive on your own then it is admissible. Miranda only applies if you are questioned directly about the incident where you feel you are not free to leave. You still have to answer field questions like "who are you, do you live here" with out Miranda..

Miranda only attaches with custody and interrogation.. You can be considered in custody with out being in cuffs. If you feel you are not free to leave at any point that can be considered a seizure of your freedom and is protected by the 4th amendment, but as long as the officer has probable cause you can be "seized" for a reasonable amount of time for investigative purpose relative to the probably cause.

If an officer has good probable cause and or evidence you can be arrested and booked into jail without ever getting mirandized. Is that wise? probably not .. Legal Yes..

[Guest canynracer]

Holy crap this thread has gotten far...LMAO...

look, NOBODY has the absolute answer to everything, things are going to depend on other things.

Going to the hospital is not to avoid questioning...it is truley for the adrenaline dump and to make sure you are OK...if it gives you some time to get your head wrapped around the flurry, great.

each scenario depends on the circumstance at hand.

[Guest canynracer]

the best part about this thread???

This is the ONLY LEO and TRAINER that have answered....and he stated the brief concise statement, ask for an atty, and a trip to the hospital....

LMFAO!!

What I tell peope is, yes you can talk to the police. But don't just bump your gums. Give a brief concise statement about what happened, then ask for an attorney and a trip to the hospital. If you say nothing, then we have to use wits and maybe the bad guys statement to figure out what happened. Then you may get a screwing. Wits are really awful, they see half of what happens, and it may be the wrong part to help you out.

[Punisher84]

Don't take my statements pointedly, most are aimed generally. I've dug through quite a few threads in this particular part of the forum and it just seems paranoia is running rampant (Anti-cop, anti-uniform, everyone's out to take my HCP away-damn them all!!). Matter of fact, I made myself a tinfoil hat so's I'm protected while reading them.

If someone wants to clam up after a good shoot and wait until an attorney's present, go for it. I just hate to see folks try to come up with some off the wall justification for personal preference.

Not at all. I really enjoyed reading your posts actually. I'm all for a good debate or sharing views, opinions, and experiences.

I stated earlier I am very pro-LEO. Most of my friends are cops actually. Which is why I feel the way I do and follow their advice. I have every intention of cooperating with them 100% if I'm ever in that situation which I hope I never have to be in. I just don't want to spill my life story at the scene only to have it picked apart later because I got the one anti-gun, anti- self defense beat cop. When it's my life hanging in the balance I want to be very careful about what I'm saying on the record lol

[Guest sn8kbit]

You might want to rephrase that... Only if you are questioned about the incident at hand and feel you are not free to leave...

"spontaneous utterance" is admissible in court.. If you start to talk when the police arrive on your own then it is admissible. Miranda only applies if you are questioned directly about the incident where you feel you are not free to leave. You still have to answer field questions like "who are you, do you live here" with out Miranda..

Miranda only attaches with custody and interrogation.. You can be considered in custody with out being in cuffs. If you feel you are not free to leave at any point that can be considered a seizure of your freedom and is protected by the 4th amendment, but as long as the officer has probable cause you can be "seized" for a reasonable amount of time for investigative purpose relative to the probably cause.

If an officer has good probable cause and or evidence you can be arrested and booked into jail without ever getting mirandized. Is that wise? probably not .. Legal Yes..

A given, and sorry for not being so specific there, but goes back to mindset and training. Someone in the correct frame of mind and who has trained him/herself with appropriate after action response won't be dealing with spontaneous utterance. When I typed the response I had no thought to random spouting as officers arrive, but that goes to my own mindset.

[Guest sn8kbit]

because I got the one anti-gun, anti- self defense beat cop....

I don't think I'd sweat that one, those are usually the last to show on scene, with a fresh cup of Joe, and will pass the paperwork off to someone else.....

[Guest Ggun]

the best part about this thread???

This is the ONLY LEO and TRAINER that have answered....and he stated the brief concise statement, ask for an atty, and a trip to the hospital....

LMFAO!!

That is funny. I was just curious why he suggested the hospital trip and he's the only one who didn't answer!

[VolunteerGuns]

I don't think I'd sweat that one, those are usually the last to show on scene, with a fresh cup of Joe, and will pass the paperwork off to someone else.....

+1 - You got that right..