Don't talk to the police?

[Punisher84]

...so maybe the investigators decide that the shooter's claim of a heart attack and subsequent adrenaline rush caused him/her to "have serious misinterpretations of their surrounding during the events"

Best of luck to them proving that. Anybody would have an adrenaline dump in that situation. Going to a hospital gives you time to breathe, collect your thoughts, and also for you to be checked out to make sure you aren't hurt.

Think about when something unexpected happens to you and you get that rush of adrenaline, when that suddenly goes away most people feel sick. You could very well be injured and not know it until later.

[Guest Ggun]

Best of luck to them proving that. Anybody would have an adrenaline dump in that situation. Going to a hospital gives you time to breathe, collect your thoughts, and also for you to be checked out to make sure you aren't hurt.

Think about when something unexpected happens to you and you get that rush of adrenaline, when that suddenly goes away most people feel sick. You could very well be injured and not know it until later.

I'd also think about what is going to be contained in the medical reports written by the slew of hospital employees attending to the patient, the shooter.

[Punisher84]

I'd also think about what is going to be contained in the medical reports written by the slew of hospital employees attending to the patient, the shooter.

You mean the reports protected by HIPPA laws that would not be admissable in court?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but you always seem to have an opinion that varies from the status quo and question everything that is said. If it's not that way you would handle it that's cool and that's your opinion, but most of us are going by what LEOs, permit instructors, lawyers, etc have told us to do and that is who we are following.

Keep in mind that alot of people here deal with this sort of situation frequently and the advice they give comes from experience dealing with those situations in an official capacity.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you seem to always want to go against the grain either to illicit a reaction or just to post. I'm not sure which to be honest.

[Oh Shoot]

... Going to a hospital gives you time to breathe, collect your thoughts, and also for you to be checked out to make sure you aren't hurt....

Well, I'd think I'd know if I was hurt or not.

Even though I'm insured, going to the emergency room would cost me a grand or two. Money I'd need for attorney.

THAT would hurt.

- OS

[Guest bkelm18]

Well, I'd think I'd know if I was hurt or not.

Even though I'm insured, going to the emergency room would cost me a grand or two. Money I'd need for attorney.

THAT would hurt.

- OS

If you've got your heart racing a million miles an hour from adrenaline, you might not know if you're hurt or not until some time after the incident.

[Guest canynracer]

I'd also think about what is going to be contained in the medical reports written by the slew of hospital employees attending to the patient, the shooter.

If its a justified shoot, you wouldnt have the option of going to the hospital.

bottom line, the visit gets you time, and allows you to gather thoughts, contact family, atty, etc.

The only thing "contained" is that the "shooter" as you put it, was scared to death, showing OBVIOUS stress levels and adrenaline, and showed remose (possibly breaking down and crying) He kept repeating "i was so scared, he was gonna kill me"

after you have had rest, to gather your thoughts, and begin rational decision making.

[Guest canynracer]

Well, I'd think I'd know if I was hurt or not.

Even though I'm insured, going to the emergency room would cost me a grand or two. Money I'd need for attorney.

THAT would hurt.

- OS

two things,

1. Adrenaline is a bitch, and I am sure you have experienced it at some point. you probably WONT feel pain...I didnt know my arm was broken in half for 7 min before falling into all out pain.

2. I would rather make payments on a grand or two, rather than say something out of uncontrolled adrenaline packed emotion that could possibly not end well.

just my thoughts...to each his own...

I for one, am going to a hospital.

[Guest Ggun]

You mean the reports protected by HIPPA laws that would not be admissable in court?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but you always seem to have an opinion that varies from the status quo and question everything that is said. If it's not that way you would handle it that's cool and that's your opinion, but most of us are going by what LEOs, permit instructors, lawyers, etc have told us to do and that is who we are following.

Keep in mind that alot of people here deal with this sort of situation frequently and the advice they give comes from experience dealing with those situations in an official capacity.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you seem to always want to go against the grain either to illicit a reaction or just to post. I'm not sure which to be honest.

I wouldn't count on HIPPA to keep a statement you made to medical personnel from being used against you in a legal proceeding. Warrants and subpoenas and such.

It's not that I haven't heard the hospital suggestion before. I have. But to suggest that it's a status quo thing to do based upon the one post in this thread is a bit much. I would suggest that it would not be without some risk and people should consider that.

I'm not sure why you post either, so we're even:p.

[Fallguy]

I wouldn't count on HIPPA to keep a statement you made to medical personnel from being used against you in a legal proceeding. Warrants and subpoenas and such.

It's not that I haven't heard the hospital suggestion before. I have. But to suggest that it's a status quo thing to do based upon the one post in this thread is a bit much. I would suggest that it would not be without some risk and people should consider that.

I'm not sure why you post either, so we're even:p.

Why in the world would you be making statements to the medical people about the details of the shooting?!?

[Guest canynracer]

I wouldn't count on HIPPA to keep a statement you made to medical personnel from being used against you in a legal proceeding. Warrants and subpoenas and such.

It's not that I haven't heard the hospital suggestion before. I have. But to suggest that it's a status quo thing to do based upon the one post in this thread is a bit much. I would suggest that it would not be without some risk and people should consider that.

I'm not sure why you post either, so we're even:p.

Here we go again...

I will ask you the question, and probably never see the answer.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO???

[Guest Ggun]

If its a justified shoot, you wouldnt have the option of going to the hospital.

bottom line, the visit gets you time, and allows you to gather thoughts, contact family, atty, etc.

The only thing "contained" is that the "shooter" as you put it, was scared to death, showing OBVIOUS stress levels and adrenaline, and showed remose (possibly breaking down and crying) He kept repeating "i was so scared, he was gonna kill me"

after you have had rest, to gather your thoughts, and begin rational decision making.

They may say that, cr, they may say "I was so angry", or "I had an adrenaline rush and shot him", the thing is there will be a medical record by someone repeating what they believe you said. A statement.

Besides, I think a better utilization of the hospital visit suggestion would be for hearing loss...

[Guest Ggun]

Why in the world would you be making statements to the medical people about the details of the shooting?!?

Medical personnel take medical histories, so if you got to the hospital claiming heart palpations, or whatever was presented in the post about going to the hospital, somebody is going to ask and record it. Plus, they may hand you a sheet for you to write your symptoms, when they began, how, etc. All that would be discoverable.

[Punisher84]

I wouldn't count on HIPPA to keep a statement you made to medical personnel from being used against you in a legal proceeding. Warrants and subpoenas and such.

It's not that I haven't heard the hospital suggestion before. I have. But to suggest that it's a status quo thing to do based upon the one post in this thread is a bit much. I would suggest that it would not be without some risk and people should consider that.

I'm not sure why you post either, so we're even:p.

I'm not basing it on one post. I'm basing it on what I've been told by several instructors at different firearms schools. One of which issues the most handgun permits in the state. I'm also basing it off opinions of lawyers and LEOs.

I post in threads like these usually when I see someone making a foolish, misinformed argument. I also try only to post when I have a clue what I'm talking about and if I'm corrected I'm usually pretty quick to admit I was wrong, unless I just have a really strong conviction about it.

I don't know what your experience is with HIPPA laws, but I've worked in the hospital industry for the past 2 years and deal with information releases to MPD, SCSD, etc weekly. It isn't like Law and Order. If you are going to get a judge to unseal medical records you better have a damn good reason because it can come back and bite everyone in the ass.

[Fallguy]

Medical personnel take medical histories, so if you got to the hospital claiming heart palpations, or whatever was presented in the post about going to the hospital, somebody is going to ask and record it. Plus, they may hand you a sheet for you to write your symptoms, when they began, how, etc. All that would be discoverable.

...and if they ask that I would say, "I was involved in a shooting." That would be enough information for them. Also that statement wouldn't seem to imply anything one way or the other.

[Guest marine77]

Which is fine to keep in mind, if you're a drug dealer. For those of us that aren't carrying contraband or otherwise breaking the law and consequently don't need your magnanimous "discretion", the point stands.

Amen. It's good if you have probable cause to search, bring it on, but a

LEO better be right. I have seen situations when an LEO has let his

emotional and irrational mind get the best of him. If an LEO has probable

cause good. But don't try to browbeat or inimidate a person about 'it will

make it easier on you' stuff. That's hogwash. I'll take my chances with the

'since you asked no you may not search my vehicle' course of action.

Because 99.9999999 percent of the time your not going to have it with

me.

[Guest canynracer]

Here we go again...

I will ask you the question, and probably never see the answer.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO???

would hate to not get this answered.

again

[memphismason]

would hate to not get this answered.

again

+1

[Guest Ggun]

I'm not basing it on one post. I'm basing it on what I've been told by several instructors at different firearms schools. One of which issues the most handgun permits in the state. I'm also basing it off opinions of lawyers and LEOs.

I post in threads like these usually when I see someone making a foolish, misinformed argument. I also try only to post when I have a clue what I'm talking about and if I'm corrected I'm usually pretty quick to admit I was wrong, unless I just have a really strong conviction about it.

I don't know what your experience is with HIPPA laws, but I've worked in the hospital industry for the past 2 years and deal with information releases to MPD, SCSD, etc weekly. It isn't like Law and Order. If you are going to get a judge to unseal medical records you better have a damn good reason because it can come back and bite everyone in the ass.

A medical provider may disclose protected health information for a law enforcement purpose, to a law enforcement official, under several sets of circumstances. Specific criminal laws, warrants, subpoenas, grand jury investigations, the list goes on and on.

It's foolish, IMO, to think that protected health information won't get discovered under a criminal murder investigation.

I'm not sure of your position. If you are following the recommendation of the poster who tells people to go to the hospital after a shooting, for what purpose? Do you have a procedure for these people to follow?

If you ask for emergency personnel on the scene to take you to the hospital, for what? Is there a standardized medical evaluation for self defense shooters?

I'm guessing that for the "heart attack" people, the hospital will keep you overnight, run tests, blood work, etc., things some might not want. You have all kinds of paperwork, statements, records, etc. which will need to be typed up and filed.

All in all, if you need medical attention, you need to go. If the reason is simply stall tactics LEO will likely perceive it and react accordingly, and not to your benefit.

[Guest db99wj]

A medical provider may disclose protected health information for a law enforcement purpose, to a law enforcement official, under several sets of circumstances. Specific criminal laws, warrants, subpoenas, grand jury investigations, the list goes on and on.

It's foolish, IMO, to think that protected health information won't get discovered under a criminal murder investigation.

I'm not sure of your position. If you are following the recommendation of the poster who tells people to go to the hospital after a shooting, for what purpose? Do you have a procedure for these people to follow?

If you ask for emergency personnel on the scene to take you to the hospital, for what? Is there a standardized medical evaluation for self defense shooters?

I'm guessing that for the "heart attack" people, the hospital will keep you overnight, run tests, blood work, etc., things some might not want. You have all kinds of paperwork, statements, records, etc. which will need to be typed up and filed.

All in all, if you need medical attention, you need to go. If the reason is simply stall tactics LEO will likely perceive it and react accordingly, and not to your benefit.

What is your expertise? I believe it has been asked what your background is?

I have been told this in classes, from instructors, and LEO's the same thing, you in a sense are "buying" time, but there is no law that says you have to answer right then and there without an attorney present. There is a law that states "anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you". I would much rather piss off a LEO than have my words used against me. Any half assed lawyer can argue that he was scared, he was confused, he wanted to be checked out to make sure he was ok, and wanted an attorney present when he made his statements. The premise that "Well he delayed our questioning so he is guilty of something" argument doesn't fly.

Who cares if the health information is brought in, "Patient came in not feeling well, rapid heart rate, sweating, whatever...." Finding was a high level of anxiety. People go to the hospital a lot for anxiety, (and less, just go to the ER and see the cold and headache crowd). I for one, would imagine I would be under a high level of anxiety if I was involved in a shooting.

Also I believe, you can not be denied medical attention, especially if requested. What if you have a heart attach due to the high stress and anxiety? If you happen to live, the lawsuit would be tremendous, you were denied medical attention when you asked for it.

[Punisher84]

I'm not sure of your position. If you are following the recommendation of the poster who tells people to go to the hospital after a shooting, for what purpose? Do you have a procedure for these people to follow?

You go to give yourself time to calm down, get checked out for injuries you may have sustained, and to allow time for your lawyer to get to you, etc. The procedure to follow is simple. You make a brief statement to the police that you were in fear of your life and would like to seek medical treatment immediately. They cannot refuse that request. They will accompany you to the hospital. Here it is The Med.

If you ask for emergency personnel on the scene to take you to the hospital, for what? Is there a standardized medical evaluation for self defense shooters?

There is a standard evaluation and procedure for anyone who is involved in an attack or traumatic situation.

All in all, if you need medical attention, you need to go. If the reason is simply stall tactics LEO will likely perceive it and react accordingly, and not to your benefit.

There is not one thing the cops can do about you seeking medical attention. It does not look bad, it is not bad, and as I've stated again and again it is the recommendation of more than just one poster here.

Now, as in the past, everyone here has been very gracious to answer your questions. Even in a civil manner. Now please answer ours...

What is your area of expertise that you feel so inclined to question what those of us here have to say?

[Guest Ggun]

Here we go again...

I will ask you the question, and probably never see the answer.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO???

LOL>

The main factors to relay to LEO, imo, is who, what, when, where, why. In other words, a concise outline of what happened, there is evidence of what happened, there are witnesses to what happened (assuming there are).

For example, in a home intrusion or an attack or a robbery, why would I play the clam and remain silent in a situation where I could:

a) who: an unknown person

what happened: I heard a window break and saw an undown person in the hall with a gun pointed at me and I shot him. He then ran out the door. (the body is here)

c)when: 3:00 am while my family was sleeping

d)where: in my house in the hallway where the body is (or where the blood is; You don't want to miss the opportunity to show them that the shoot was in your house-they may miss it if you don't show them).

e)how: with the 9mm handgun I have placed on the table

f)why: he was going to kill me or my family

That's enough->there isn't anything wrong with telling LEO that you are shook up and need some time to calm down before giving a full statement and that you'd like your lawyer there when you do.

Caveat: if there is something in your past relationship with the person you shot, that's a different scenario.

Bottom line, for me, I would rather not get arrested, and it's my opinion that if you play the clam you put yourself a suspect right off and may get you arrested for what otherwise is a self defensive shooting.

Or, in this scenario, while you are at the hospital and haven't told the LEO anything, they find a bleeding man down the street and he tells them a crazy angry man shot him on the street. (you get the picture).

I certainly don't want to leave my house, my wife then is subject to questions, my kids, all there and I'm off to the hospital for no good reason except as you all suggest: time for the lawyer to get to me (as if he/she is going to jump up out of bed and race down to the ER->something I might get but the majority of people won't).

These are things I will do. I post them for discussion purposes only and suggest others take what they want and leave the rest.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Ggun
scnario

[Guest canynracer]

not one person here said they would NOT comply...of course you will have SOME answers to give at a high level...but the questions will not stop....

oh, and when you go to the hostpital, your wife and kids go too. and also, I dont ever recall people saying that when in the hospital DONT talk to cops...

and BTW in your scenario, according to your past posts...you would be arrested...remember, intruder while you sleep, you shoot, could be the innocent girl scouts selling cookies...

Edited May 5, 2009 by canynracer

[Guest Ggun]

snip.

and BTW in your scenario, according to your past posts...you would be arrested...remember, intruder while you sleep, you shoot, could be the innocent girl scouts selling cookies...

Nope, determine who and why: in my scenario the who is an "unknown" who has broken in my home by breaking a window and the why they are there: determined as one who is there to kill or harm by virtue of pointing a gun at me-- entirely different than a roommate's girl friend who walks in an unlocked door with cookies.

[Punisher84]

I got bad news for ya. You ARE going to be arrested. The cops will question you at the scene, but you are going to go with them to the station as well. You may not be charged, but they aren't going to stand there in your living room over a dead body, listen to YOUR version of events and then say "Well OK I guess we'll be going. Have a nice night." and then drag the dead body out.

I'm not advocating refusing to answer questions. I have always been told to make the statement that "I was in fear for my life and intend to cooperate fully with the police. I would like to seek medical attention and will make a full statement after I've spoken with my lawyer and been checked for injuries I might have sustained."

It's up to you what you want to do, but I deal with this situation from time to time at work and I also hear the what ifs frequently. Every MPD officer, Sheriff's deputy, lawyer, permit instructor, and investigator I know tells me to do exactly what I have stated. Why? Because it's what they do. When an LEO is in a shooting do you think they give their statement right there at the scene? Nope.

[DaveTN]

I got bad news for ya. You ARE going to be arrested. The cops will question you at the scene, but you are going to go with them to the station as well. You may not be charged, but they aren't going to stand there in your living room over a dead body, listen to YOUR version of events and then say "Well OK I guess we'll be going. Have a nice night." and then drag the dead body out.

Why not; I’ve been the detail Officer when that is exactly what was done. Home invasion, dead perp, secured the scene called the detectives, and took statements from the shooter and everyone else at the scene. No need to make a victim go to HQ when there is no evidence of a criminal act. Detectives and the on-call Assistant States Attorney arrive and follow-up, coroner drags the body off when they are done. No muss, no fuss when everyone is cooperating.

What is your area of expertise that you feel so inclined to doubt that could happen? How many shootings have you been the detail Officer on?

I'm not advocating refusing to answer questions. I have always been told to make the statement that "I was in fear for my life and intend to cooperate fully with the police. I would like to seek medical attention and will make a full statement after I've spoken with my lawyer and been checked for injuries I might have sustained."

And that may work well for you. Just because someone told you that it doesn’t mean it will work for the rest of us. But you are beating this guy over the head with the idea that there is only one way to handle this situation and it is by God your way.

It's up to you what you want to do, but I deal with this situation from time to time at work and I also hear the what ifs frequently. Every MPD officer, Sheriff's deputy, lawyer, permit instructor, and investigator I know tells me to do exactly what I have stated. Why? Because it's what they do. When an LEO is in a shooting do you think they give their statement right there at the scene? Nope.

You say that you deal with this situation from time to time at work? You deal with suspects that have been shot by homeowners from time to time? Are you a police Officer; if not what do you do?

Good grief, why is it that any time there is a question about the cops or what they would do it has to turn so negative?