What if you are asked to leave?

[Fallguy]

Just out of curiosity, there is no legal reason why a person would actually have to STAY on the premise of the store and wait for a LEO to arrive, correct?

If Walmart tells you to wait there while the LEO comes and Walmart asks to takes your picture etc, you're not bound in any way to wait around correct?

If they said that to me I'd most likely just walk out.

They can not detain you unless they place you under citizens arrest. 40-7-109

If someone does place you under citizens arrest they law says the person making the arrest "may use force reasonably necessary to accomplish the arrest" 39-11-621

Now how many store managers are going to go as far as actually placing your under arrest..... not many would be my guess. How many security guards would.....well, probably a few at least.

I assume your question is based on my story about Wal-Mart in Columbia....I'm not for sure, but I would guess they probably don't even confront the person until LE shows up.

[Fallguy]

Just to add after reading a few more post....

Could a SG forcibly detain you if you didn't do anything wrong?... No, but, if he told you to leave (for whatever reason)...and you have not left, you have violated the law, you are trespassing. So...if he chooses to arrest you, Yes, he could physical force to detain you.

I would guess whether he would do that is partially up to how much potential liability the company he works for wants to open themselves up to.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

But he cant use deadly force.... can he??? And if it goes down and escalates the problem arises when the security guards make up their own version of what happened when the police get there... thats when it gets confusing for LE's.

[Fallguy]

But he cant use deadly force.... can he??? And if it goes down and escalates the problem arises when the security guards make up their own version of what happened when the police get there... thats when it gets confusing for LE's.

Not to make the arrest, correct.

Only if self-defense or defense-of-a-third person would apply.

Also the situation you describe is why I would guess lots of people/companies that employ private security probably limit when they want them to actually make an arrest and/or may even limit their use of force to make the arrest.

[Guest Spook45]

In the state of TN the law says that if they dont want you to carry your gun there"The Door Shall Be POsted" I would have left upon request but I would have followed up by 1st)emailing the corp. headquarters and asking about it. Krogers threatend to post the doors of thier Ohio stores when they got ccw rights and they were overwhelmed with a negitive response and backed off. 2) I would not hesitate to return to that store, armed as usual, if the door was not posted as per TCA code. And 3rd) I would get on the internet and email every pro gun site on the web and go totally VIRAL on the matter and I would either run KROGER out of buisness or out of TN either would be acceptable. I always look for signs and if I see a legal posting, I take my business else where. I have seen this before where the corperate rules say no and an individual store manager will do it anyway. Walmart at Ft. Campbell, when corp finds out heads will roll.

[Punisher84]

Not arguing with you, that just seems shady as all get out. Assuming the business doesn't Post, that's almost like inviting somebody into your house, then informing them they don't have a right to be there and detaining them before allowing them to leave. There should at least be a period of time between being asked to leave and being detained.

I agree with you. If I'm detaining anybody they are going to jail and they have done something that i know is going to stick. On the occasions I have finally put cuffs on somebody for violating a CT warning I've issued it's usually after they've done it more than twice if it's nothing serious. Now if they are violent or whatever, they are going up the next time we see them. Now there are exceptions to that rule, but none that would apply here without further veering into a thousand what ifs lol

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Yes. You'd be foolish as well. Risking your freedom and your permit by carrying where you shouldn't isn't clever, mature, nor is it a recipe for success.

I was reading the thread about being asked to leave the Kroger today ( http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/20590-asked-remove-my-weapon-kroger.html ) and I had a question I have not noticed being addressed.

If I go into any public building that is legal to carry and is not properly posted and the management or security somehow realize that I am carrying and then ask me to leave is that request only for that visit? If I were to go back at a later date carrying again would I be in violation of any trespassing laws?

[Volzfan]

Yes. You'd be foolish as well. Risking your freedom and your permit by carrying where you shouldn't isn't clever, mature, nor is it a recipe for success.

I never said anything about carrying where I shouldn't be carrying. In the Kroger thread that I referenced, he was not doing anything wrong but was asked to leave. At that point it seems to be what you are told that would determine whether or not you would be welcome to return. In the Kroger case if I didn't get an apology from store management about how their security mishandled the situation then I would not return.

I have never been made that I am aware of. My question was hypothetical. I think that I do a pretty good job of concealing my gun. If I am ever told not to return then they will never see me there again. I will not risk my permit.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Volzfan

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Well put.

Yes. You'd be foolish as well. Risking your freedom and your permit by carrying where you shouldn't isn't clever, mature, nor is it a recipe for success.

[bteague2]

I would either run KROGER out of buisness or out of TN either would be acceptable.

Your funny. Even if every HCP holder in the state stopped shopping at kroger or walmart it wouldn't change a thing.

Well put.

No it wasn't.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

What is self-evident to a mature individual often cannot be effectively explained to one who listens only to their own youthful or uneducated counsel.

Yes. You'd be foolish as well. Risking your freedom and your permit by carrying where you shouldn't isn't clever, mature, nor is it a recipe for success.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Bill Lumberg

[Punisher84]

I'm lost. Who is youthful and uneducated?

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Lots of folks. I read it kind of like someone wearing plaid polyester pants. If they couldn't figure out their error on their own, someone explaining it to them isn't likely to be effective.