What if you are asked to leave?

[Volzfan]

I was reading the thread about being asked to leave the Kroger today ( http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/20590-asked-remove-my-weapon-kroger.html ) and I had a question I have not noticed being addressed.

If I go into any public building that is legal to carry and is not properly posted and the management or security somehow realize that I am carrying and then ask me to leave is that request only for that visit? If I were to go back at a later date carrying again would I be in violation of any trespassing laws?

[Cajun]

I guess it would depend on what they told you as they were escorting you out.

[56FordGuy]

I believe that you would be okay to return at a later date as long as they didn't post in the mean time, but why would you want to?

The number one thing is, if you're asked to leave, leave! There are other places to buy groceries, eat supper, etc...

[mdmoseley]

If you were asked to leave and not return armed regardless whether it was posted correctly or not hen you will be either cited or arrested for trepassing. THe best thing to do is carry so it will never be noticed then you will never have a problem.

[Volzfan]

If you were asked to leave and not return armed regardless whether it was posted correctly or not hen you will be either cited or arrested for trepassing. THe best thing to do is carry so it will never be noticed then you will never have a problem.

I don't OC ever. We usually spend our $$ at Wally World and I know their policy is that as long as the gun is concealed they don't mind but if I am there and another customer sees my gun and complains to management and they ask me to leave or take the gun off and leave it in my car but don't tell me that I am not to ever come back carrying does that give me the option of carrying again in that store?

[mdmoseley]

Hum. That's a good question. If they specifically tell you not to come back armed then yes you would be arrested/cited. If they just asked to put it in the car but to come back armed then you probably wouldn't. BTW most likely they would just take you aside and ask you to keep it concealled. Wal-Mart does not have a policy against carrying firearms unless carrying it openly. They do ask to keep it concealled.

[Guest jos2f]

Really any building owner can ask you to leave, posted or not. As far as coming back, I guess it depends.

If a Walmart manager says "a customer complained that they don't feel safe ... would you mind taking it to your car and coming back" I'd say you can wear it next time.

If the manager says "We do not allow carrying guns in this store, please do not do so" then that is more permanent where you would want to leave it off every time.

Or, just get a pocket gun so nobody can confirm that it really is a gun That bulge in your pants could be your keys, or phone, or.. etc.

[DRM]

If I go into any public building that is legal to carry and is not properly posted and the management or security somehow realize that I am carrying and then ask me to leave is that request only for that visit? If I were to go back at a later date carrying again would I be in violation of any trespassing laws?

I guess I'm confused... legal or not, of the owner/operator/person in charge of a business makes it clear to you personally that you are not welcome to carry there - logic would tell me that request stands until such point as they personally inform you otherwise, or the building is posted otherwise.

So are you just asking if it's legal to ignore that personal request the next time you visit?

[Oh Shoot]

Amazing the problems you don't have with a well-concealed weapon.

- OS

[Volzfan]

So are you just asking if it's legal to ignore that personal request the next time you visit?

I am not saying that I would ignore them telling me not to come back.

If they specifically say that I am not welcome back in that business again, that's fine. There are other places that will be happy to take my $$.

If they didn't tell me that I am not welcome back would that leave me the option to go back while carrying?

Can they tell me that I am welcome back if I'm not carrying?

[Guest canynracer]

If they say "you cant carry guns here, so you gotta leave" well then....you cant

If they say "You cant carry guns here TODAY"...then...you can, just not today..

if they dont say ANYTHING to you...they didnt see it

[Fallguy]

I think everyone is pretty much right....

For those that want to read it here is an AG opinion about being asked to leave. (Questions 5 & 6).

If they tell you to leave, you must leave.*

If they tell you to leave and never come backed armed, you can never go back with a weapon.*

If they tell you to leave and never come back period, you can never go back period.*

* Or risk being charged with trespassing.

If they simply ask you to leave it in the car, they have not told you "To not come back armed".

[Mike.357]

if you have a CCW badge it makes it all good

[Guest kdpate]

If that be the case, I'd take my business elsewhere and not go back there. Period. No matter how desperate I need something.......

[Guest db99wj]

I'd leave and depending on what was said, I would comply.

[Volzfan]

I'd leave and depending on what was said, I would comply.

This is my point. It all depends on what is said at the time. But who can prove what was said?

[Punisher84]

This is my point. It all depends on what is said at the time. But who can prove what was said?

Nobody unless it's on tape or you signed something, which I can't imagine that really being the case,but the police are usually going to side with the business owner on a case like that.

[Fallguy]

This is my point. It all depends on what is said at the time. But who can prove what was said?

Very good point.

Also trespassing is a misdemeanor. A LEO can not make a charge unless it occurs in his presence. Of course the owner or security guard can file the charge. But if they call the PD then you could end up with a notice not to return given in the presence of a LEO which would be pretty binding. (See below)

My brother works for Columbia PD....when the Wal-Mart there wants to effectively ban someone from the premises (for whatever reason), they call the PD, make the statement to the person in front of the LEO that they are not to come back, take the persons picture and fill out a form on them. Now I think they have a pretty solid case for trespassing if someone returns.

I wouldn't advise any course of action that could make HCP holders look bad or could have legal repercussions. But if a property owner tells you to leave and not come back armed.... and for some reason you do later, it is probably the property owner that would have to file the charges...if they wanted to take the time to do it. Some larger business probably would...mom and pop may not. Even then it would be your word against theirs unless they bring witnesses and so on. All of which is a lot of trouble to buy something that you could probably get elsewhere.

I think it could be situations like this, that the "announce" part was removed from 39-17-1359 and actually posting is required. Even though with the above AG ruling...announce on an individual basis is still pretty much in effect.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Fallguy

[Guest malbolja]

I would not come back regardless. If my pistol isn't welcome, neither is my $ AFAIC.

[Guest jos2f]

Very good point.

But if they call the PD then you could end up with a notice not to return given in the presence of a LEO which would be pretty binding. (See below)

My brother works for Columbia PD....when the Wal-Mart there wants to effectively ban someone from the premises (for whatever reason), they call the PD, make the statement to the person in front of the LEO that they are not to come back, take the persons picture and fill out a form on them. Now I think they have a pretty solid case for trespassing if someone returns.

Just out of curiosity, there is no legal reason why a person would actually have to STAY on the premise of the store and wait for a LEO to arrive, correct?

If Walmart tells you to wait there while the LEO comes and Walmart asks to takes your picture etc, you're not bound in any way to wait around correct?

If they said that to me I'd most likely just walk out.

[Guest mustangdave]

Just out of curiosity, there is no legal reason why a person would actually have to STAY on the premise of the store and wait for a LEO to arrive, correct?

If Walmart tells you to wait there while the LEO comes and Walmart asks to takes your picture etc, you're not bound in any way to wait around correct?

If they said that to me I'd most likely just walk out.

In this situation where you are "carrying"...I would assume that they might have a store security officer "detain" you until LEO shows up. Then again they might not...

I know that in the case of someone caught shop lifting that would be the procedure. Most likely you would be sequestered in the managers office...away from the prying eye's of the video cameras and general public

[Guest jos2f]

I can see carrying in a posted store as grounds for detainment, or breaking the law through shoplifting, but I feel like it would be a violation of my freedom and personal rights if I were detained at the whim of a SG or Manager.

Can a SG legally put his hands on you with forcible detainment if you didn't do anything illegal?

[Punisher84]

Just out of curiosity, there is no legal reason why a person would actually have to STAY on the premise of the store and wait for a LEO to arrive, correct?

If Walmart tells you to wait there while the LEO comes and Walmart asks to takes your picture etc, you're not bound in any way to wait around correct?

If they said that to me I'd most likely just walk out.

It kinda depends. If you're not committing a crime the loss prevention or store security can't really detain you for very long.

When I'm doing campus security we will stop suspicious people and issue them a CT warning and the law if they have no business at the hospital. If they comply we will get information and photograph them, but if they jet it's not really worth it to chase them.

A security guard/officer does not have the power to demand your ID, but if they suspect you of a crime they can detain you for the police. It's weird and there is alot of gray area that doesn't fit every situation.

My point has always been if I don't want someone to continue their behavior on the property I'm working and they want to leave, let them leave. I'm not going to argue or fight with someone when they are doing what I want them to do in the first place, leaving. Now if they've committed a criminal act it's obviously different.

[Punisher84]

Can a SG legally put his hands on you with forcible detainment if you didn't do anything illegal?

That's another not every situation is the same. If you are suspected of something and non-compliant they could hold you for the police. They just have to be able to thoroughly explain to LE why they detained you. Remember they are protecting private property that, even though open to the public, you don't have a "right" to be in.

It almost opens up the can of worms about informing. If a guard sees your gun and asks for your permit to see if you are legally carrying it might be a good idea to show it, if not they could detain you for LE to verify you aren't breaking the law.

It is really going to depend on what the business' policy is, how trained the guards/officers are, etc.

[Guest jos2f]

. Remember they are protecting private property that, even though open to the public, you don't have a "right" to be in.

.

Not arguing with you, that just seems shady as all get out. Assuming the business doesn't Post, that's almost like inviting somebody into your house, then informing them they don't have a right to be there and detaining them before allowing them to leave. There should at least be a period of time between being asked to leave and being detained.