Glock's new Model 21SF .45ACP

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Another opinion, it freakin' ugly. There's nothing glamorous about it. Unlike the 1911 or Colt SA Army style handguns, this one has no character. It's strictly "form follows function". There's no doubt in my mind, Glock hits the mark, but let's face it, you're not going to see a Glock with a set of stag grips or fancy engraving on a marshal's hip in a parade or at a barbeque.

Interesting. I just view it as a tool. The prettier it is the less likely one is to actually use it. You know, fear of getting it scratched or something. I prefer robust simple stuff that works and I wouldn't hesitate to use to beat someone down with if I had to.... something I'm not terrified to drop on pavement. I guess I just look at it differently than some. In my circles we view a carry gun as a life preserver not a museum piece.

If rappers started carrying 1911s would you guys hate them?

And on the 45GAP...while I don't own one nor will I ,the state police of NY,PA,GA,(and soon SC) have all gone to it. Again I don't see why anyone cares. No one is making anyone buy one. And frankly if the bullet diameter is the same as .45 auto and the velocity is the same as .45 auto AND it is in a frame that more people can wrap their hand around and control better...what is the problem?

[Guest Len]

Yeah, consensus is that there is little/no hope for me....

Cruel Hand Luke said it well -its a tool, and this particular tool works for me. Variety is the spice of life, so the more the merrier.

And you've got to admit, gun boards would be just a tad less interesting if it wasn't for the Glock lovers/haters.

Yeah, you are a Democrat too. Just can't do anything right....

I'm interested in how it shoots. Problem is, it's still a Glock with the same design flaws. [heads for bunker]

[molonlabetn]

Interesting. I just view it as a tool. The prettier it is the less likely one is to actually use it. You know, fear of getting it scratched or something. I prefer robust simple stuff that works and I wouldn't hesitate to use to beat someone down with if I had to.... something I'm not terrified to drop on pavement. I guess I just look at it differently than some. In my circles we view a carry gun as a life preserver not a museum piece.

If rappers started carrying 1911s would you guys hate them?

And on the 45GAP...while I don't own one nor will I ,the state police of NY,PA,GA,(and soon SC) have all gone to it. Again I don't see why anyone cares. No one is making anyone buy one. And frankly if the bullet diameter is the same as .45 auto and the velocity is the same as .45 auto AND it is in a frame that more people can wrap their hand around and control better...what is the problem?

Tools, they all are... the debate over which qualities are most desirable in their tools, is eternal.

If rappers started carrying 1911s, I'd probably listen to more rap

I had a .45GAP Springfield XD for a year and a half... it was a great shooter, very accurate (handled much better than the G37 I tried out before buying the XD). The main issue was finding ammo locally, I could order ammo all day long off of the 'net, but rarely did. Thinking back, I should have went straight to .357sig... As to the G21 - G37 comparison, the smaller grip is a major improvement. I just think that the lower capacity and lack of common ammo really killed the GAP from the get-go. I was enthusiastic about the performance of the round, but when it all comes down, it's not any improvement over ACP, in a properly designed gun (ie XD-45acp, and to a lesser extent, the G21SF).

[Urse]

Interesting. I just view it as a tool. The prettier it is the less likely one is to actually use it. You know, fear of getting it scratched or something. I prefer robust simple stuff that works and I wouldn't hesitate to use to beat someone down with if I had to.... something I'm not terrified to drop on pavement. I guess I just look at it differently than some. In my circles we view a carry gun as a life preserver not a museum piece.

+100

They are just tools. If you are afraid to scratch em chances are you are never gonna use them. This is why I choose Glock/AK combo. These weapons were not made pretty they were made to fight. And who cares if they are ugly. There are many beautiful guns out there I just personally prefer form to follow function.

[creeky]

I also view them as tools. I own an HK Compact mainly becuase it fit my hand better than anything else. The only other that felt like it fit was the Sig 239, but the decocking lever was awkward for me to get to.

If someone prefers the 1911, and shoots it well, I could care less if they want a "pretty one". Or wanted to dress it up a little. Stainless doesn't shoot any better than blue to me.

I am more impressed by how well the operator can handle the weapon as opposed to how pretty it is. Nothing is sadder than seeing a really nice fast car being driven by someone who can't work a stick shift.

I shoot as often as I can, for enjoyment and to try and get better each time I go to the range. I have never been in the military (but I did have over 200 plastic army men under my command once, sadly they were all lost... I... I... blame myself. ), and I also have never served in Law Enforcement.

Maybe that has an affect on how I view personal weapons, I'm not sure. One thing I have noticed... it seems that what someone carries seems to reflect a lot of their personality. Maybe it is our collected gun culture, and history.

Sorry...

Back to topic...

I haven't ever shot the .45 Gap but would love the chance.

[Marswolf]

No point in re-beating a dead horse. As I said before:

I'm sorry guys but I'm not going to say that a handgun intentionally designed with a unsupported section of the chamber is anything but a dumb design. I don't care how reliable it makes feeding. If it was on a Saturday Night Special, all of you would be saying it was a gun only a retard would carry.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613 has more as does http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497.

The unsupported section of the Glock chamber and its willingness to fire out of battery make it a dangerously bad design. The number of catastrophic failures of the weapon shows it to be a real problem rather than a theoretical one. The fact that you can get away with firing the weapon without it always blowing up is a testament to modern cartridge design and manufacture.

I was less hard on Glock until I bought the case of American 40 S&W cartridges. That's "factory ammunition", if cheap factory ammunition, and some rounds were sufficiently out of spec to prevent my USP from going into battery. Apart from being annoying, that wasn't a problem in the USP as it would not fire in that condition. I hate to think what might have happened if I had been shooting a Glock instead.

You may see this as Glock bashing if you choose. I see it as objective analysis. I look at the facts and draw conclusions.

All guns are tools. I don't care how they look or who carries them. I do care how they work because my life depends on it.

[The Average Joe]

Interesting. I just view it as a tool. The prettier it is the less likely one is to actually use it. You know, fear of getting it scratched or something. I prefer robust simple stuff that works and I wouldn't hesitate to use to beat someone down with if I had to.... something I'm not terrified to drop on pavement. I guess I just look at it differently than some. In my circles we view a carry gun as a life preserver not a museum piece.

If rappers started carrying 1911s would you guys hate them?

And on the 45GAP...while I don't own one nor will I ,the state police of NY,PA,GA,(and soon SC) have all gone to it. Again I don't see why anyone cares. No one is making anyone buy one. And frankly if the bullet diameter is the same as .45 auto and the velocity is the same as .45 auto AND it is in a frame that more people can wrap their hand around and control better...what is the problem?

You're not terrified of dropping your firearms on pavement?

I don't think that's covered under "proper use".

Scratching your play pretty does not consist of dropping it on pavement.

That falls under "screwing up the whole darn piece".

I would question the working condition of your firearms.

Rappers could never carry 1911s. They don't have enough vocabulary to rhyme anything with 1911.

.45GAP, I rank it right up there with 10mm.

[molonlabetn]

.45GAP' date=' I rank it right up there with 10mm.[/quote']

Watch out with that one...

There are a number of 10mm aficianados on here... and rightfully so, the 10mm is a niche caliber with magnum performance not duplicated by any other common, controllable autoloader cartridge. And, it is far more popular and useful than .45GAP will ever be.

[The Average Joe]

Watch out with that one...

There are a number of 10mm aficianados on here... and rightfully so, the 10mm is a niche caliber with magnum performance not duplicated by any other common, controllable autoloader cartridge. And, it is far more popular and useful than .45GAP will ever be.

:shrug:I'd heard through the grape vine, it was a dying breed...due to lack of popularity with military, police, and reloaders. Among the gun show crowd discussions, it was a caliber that just never caught on.

[towerclimber37]

I shoot as often as I can, for enjoyment and to try and get better each time I go to the range. I have never been in the military (but I did have over 200 plastic army men under my command once, sadly they were all lost... I... I... blame myself. ), and I also have never served in Law Enforcement.

now THATS FUNNY!

I agree with you on the function over form thing though.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

You're not terrified of dropping your firearms on pavement?

I don't think that's covered under "proper use".

Scratching your play pretty does not consist of dropping it on pavement.

That falls under "screwing up the whole darn piece".

I would question the working condition of your firearms.

Rappers could never carry 1911s. They don't have enough vocabulary to rhyme anything with 1911.

.45GAP, I rank it right up there with 10mm.

If your gun CAN'T survive a 3 foot drop onto pavement your gun's already screwed up. These things are built to survive military combat. I guess no one has EVER been in a fight to detain a suspect and dropped a pistol on a parking lot before? I guess no one has ever been shot and dropped their pistol, picked it up and fought back? So maybe dropping it on pavement is not out of the realm of possibility?

Question what you want about the condition of my pistol. Ichiro Nagata is not going to show up at my house to do a glossy pictorial for GUNS magazine.And I'm OK with that. My carry gun is there to protect life, not turn heads. My carry guns are well used, well worn and work well.I've carried these same pistols for several years 360+ days a year, shot them in dirt, mud, heat, cold,I've hit peoople with them and wrestled over them in disarm classes, dry fired them THOUSANDS of times, and won more than my share of matches with 'em. And I'm a certified armorer so I can work on 'em if I need to. So I wouldn't lose any sleep over my pistols' condition.

If your pistol can't be dropped without breaking it , is that REALLY the gun you want to be defending your life with? But until you put it in that context of real world usage you will probably continue to coddle them and think of them as trinkets instead of tools.

[towerclimber37]

Luke, I completely agree!

[Guest triggertime]

The unsupported section of the Glock chamber and its willingness to fire out of battery make it a dangerously bad design. The number of catastrophic failures of the weapon shows it to be a real problem rather than a theoretical one. The fact that you can get away with firing the weapon without it always blowing up is a testament to modern cartridge design and manufacture.

I was less hard on Glock until I bought the case of American 40 S&W cartridges. That's "factory ammunition", if cheap factory ammunition, and some rounds were sufficiently out of spec to prevent my USP from going into battery. Apart from being annoying, that wasn't a problem in the USP as it would not fire in that condition. I hate to think what might have happened if I had been shooting a Glock instead.

You do realize that the 1911 has had an unsupported chamber for 96 years, don't you? Therefor, by your analysis its a "bad design".

And you do realize that "American" brand ammunition is complete junk and will blow up any gun?

Be advised that catastrophic failures in Glock handguns are caused by ignorant people who shoot lead bullets down their polygonal/hexagonal/octagonal rifled barrels. Not because the chamber is unsupported. If the unsupported chamber was the fault, a 1911 would blow up everytime a 1911 fan went to the range to exercise their John Moses Browning jones.

Is that a design flaw? No. The manual says, don't shoot lead bullets in Glock handguns. Too bad the higher-ups at police agencies can't read, because they continue to bid on and buy lead training ammo for Glock handguns and Glock handguns continue to suffer catastrophic failures.

So in essence, your Glock hate is kinda' like me telling you that Ford is the Corvair of the modern day automotive world, because if you rearend a Crown Victoria it will burst into flames and roast you alive. Therefor anything Ford makes is dangerous and is unsafe and only a fool would buy a Ford...

[Urse]

Actually the main reason for so many KB's in Glocks is reloaded and or overloaded 40 S&W ammunition. While it is true the 1911 has a unsupported chamber this is usually much less of an issue in the .45 because it is a low pressure round. I have heard of a G21(45) KB and that was ammo related so it can happen to any gun. Hey bottom line is opinions are like everybody has one. I like Glocks and so do 65% of the LE agencies in the country and it is the most widely issued military sidearm on EARTH. But hey a million peasants can be wrong. Whatever makes you happy.

Oh and on the original post. The 21SF looks cool. I am not familiar with the 45 GAP and I don't really see a need to replace the 45 ACP but whatever floats your boat.

Rock Out With Your Glock Out:rock:

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Urse is on it. The issues are these....

1. The 40SW high operating pressure. It is 30,000PSI + , a far cry from the .45 auto 21,000 PSI.

2. Because of this pressure the unsupported chamber CAN be an issue with old brass. While you can load .45 auto numerous times till it finally cracks, 40SW is a different critter.

3. There was a much publicized batch of Federal ammo about 12 years ago that had substandard brass that led to KBs.

4. The other issue is bullet set back with 180 grain ammo. The 180 grain bullets are long. If you chamber them 20 times before you shoot them you are driving the bullet deeper into the case than it is safe to operate at.It is more dangerous with the 180, but it is an issue with any weight. If your chambered round is obviously shorter than the rest in the mag, throw it away, don't SHOOT it! Again, while it is not a problem with the slower lower pressure stuff, 40SW pressures get ridiculously high when the bullet is sitting farther down in the case than it should be seated. This is why CCI dropped the Blazer 357sig loading. Bullet setback.And the 357 operating at 40,000 PSI is even more bad news with bullet setback. You can't crimp aluminum cases tight enough to prevent it.So CCI dropped the Blazer 357sig.

5. Lead bullets. Polygon rifling gets a better gas seal(why they shoot the same loads FASTER than standard rifling). So it operates under more pressure to begin with. Now when the barrel becomes less than a full .40 diameter from the lead build up, all that pressure has to go somewhere and it takes the path of least resistance.

6. AND finally reloaders not paying attention. I know a guy who had a KB with a G22. He double charged a round. BOOOM! While it may not be a big deal to double charge a low pressure round shot in a steel frame gun , it IS a big deal when you double charge something that operates at 30,000+ PSI in a polymer frame gun.

Often the KBs are a result of MORE than one of the above. Any ONE can cause it, but more than one is really bad.

So my advice to .40 cal polymer frame gun shooters is to READ THE MANUAL. DON'T USE RELOADS. DON'T CHAMBER THE SAME ROUND MORE THAN 2 OR 3 TIMES BEFORE YOU SHOOT IT. DON'T SHOOT LEAD.

Incidentally while KBs have happened, they are RARE. I know A LOT of shooters. I only know of ONE KB from someone that is a first hand story. So lets keep it in perspective.

[Urse]

+1000 Luke! Good Post. Even though I use primarily 155-165 grain(better ballistics) bullet setback is absolutely a reality. Never chamber a round more than 3 times!(Yet another rule of three)

[Marswolf]

Someone else has already made most of the points I would make about 45 ACP chamber pressures and such. The Kel-Tec P3AT, which I think is a fantastic little gun, also has a partially supported chamber, but you are only looking at 21,500 PSI. 45 ACP +P is only 23,000 PSI. 40 S&W is 35,000 PSI as is 9mm Luger, but the larger diameter of the cartridge gives a larger unsupported surface area. An unsupported chamber is just a really bad design in 40 S&W. If pressures were higher, it would be a worse design in 45 ACP, but that isn't the case.

American brand ammo is junk, but in most handguns if it doesn't fully load, the gun won't fire. In a Glock it will. I can see absolutely no reasonable excuse for this.

H&Ks generally have a polygonal bore. But they don't blow up like Glocks. In fact, tests have been done with purposely blocked USP barrels and all you get is a swelling of the barrel, not a kaboom. It's a matter of good design.

Glocks have three good features. They load reliably with quality ammunition, they are accurate, they don't have a hammer to scare the public. A fourth point is that they are relatively inexpensive to LE. All this explains why it is a usable handgun for LE.

But they do have safety problems caused by the chamber and out of battery firing. The public doesn't always want to follow the restrictive ammo requirements and there is less safety factor in a Glock compared to other quality handguns. I won't even get into the "Glock butt / Glock leg" thing, but that is also a design problem that other guns don't have.

If used carefully and according to instructions, Glocks work fine - in spite of their lousy design.

I just don't understand why people refuse to see Glock's flaws when they are pointed out to them and who staunchly defend the handgun. I owned two Glocks. I objectively looked at the design and got rid of them.

[Urse]

H&Ks generally have a polygonal bore. But they don't blow up like Glocks. In fact, tests have been done with purposely blocked USP barrels and all you get is a swelling of the barrel, not a kaboom. It's a matter of good design.

Not going to deny that H&K is a very high quality product. I am not sure their customer service is what it should be. But then again they do not break very often. Here is a link to an H&K kB and surprise reloaded ammunition! Although the barrel remained intact he does say the frame cracked.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hk-expert.html

If used carefully and according to instructions, Glocks work fine - in spite of their lousy design.

This is a major breakthrough! You may be wearing down.

I just don't understand why people refuse to see Glock's flaws when they are pointed out to them and who staunchly defend the handgun. I owned two Glocks. I objectively looked at the design and got rid of them.

I agree it is not GLOCK Perfection. However, even with it's flaws it is a solid firearm that just plain works.

[molonlabetn]

Any time tolerances are opened in order to promote reliability, any given system is vulnerable to structural failures. Though, assuming that proper cartridge specs are maintained, the Glock design successfully achieves it's purpose of feeding reliably.

Regardless of the ergonomics and manual of operation which can be argued between different pistols and the Glock, I would personally much rather have precisely matched tolerances, and am willing to pay for the extra effort to refine it's operation to be just as reliable, which is entirely possible. Glock does not have the market cornered on reliable operation, they have merely sacrificed safety-factor for reliability cheaply by using the shortcut of opening the tolerances of the chamber and disconnecter-to-battery relationship. Such engineering practices are sub-standard, I don't care how you cut it.

addendum:

A similar comparison is to the Kalashnikov rifle, which operates on loose tolerances for the same reason as the Glock. The difference is that the designer addressed the reduced safety-factor by designing the rifle to be heavy, over-built in fact, with thick metal in the areas which may experience excessive loads... this contrasts greatly with the Glock, which was built as lightly as possible.

Safety-factor is important with machines which can cause fatality if they misoperate.

[dcloudy777]

ehhh... safe, unsafe, whatever... they still have lousy triggers, and have the wrong grip angle.

DanO

[Marswolf]

You can loads rounds that will blow up any gun. But which gun do you automatically think of when you hear of one destructing? Which gun do you think of when you hear of someone accidentally shooting themselves? There's a reason for that.

[molonlabetn]

The Glock is essentially what a combination of the Chevy Corvair and Ford Pinto would be, as a car...

Is that about the jist of it, Mars?

"Unsafe at any... BOOM!"

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I agree. People that can't pay attention when they reload and can't keep their fingers off the trigger when they are holstering shouldn't buy them......or anything else.

[TGO David]

I seriously had NO problems with any of my Glocks. The only reason I am not carrying a G23 right now is because a slick Smith & Wesson representative talked me into giving their new M&P 40c a try. Had that not happened, I'd be carrying a Glock again.

[Urse]

Alrighty then.. I tried to be diplomatic but you guys insist on living in your fantasy world. Anytime you guys want to put your money were your mouth is lets take you and your H&K, Sig, or yes especially 1911's and me and my Glock plus 1000 rounds each. We'll shoot 10 round groups for accuracy every 100 rounds and tally scores. Of course we will have to deduct for FTF, FTE and of course a kB! Winner gets his ammunition paid for and dinner at the restaurant of his choice. Oh and losers forfeit their rights to talk any trash(on TGO) about what they think is the best handgun. Not that this will prove anything but what the hell win or lose it should be fun.