Shooting at Trump rally?

[deerslayer]

20 minutes ago, papa61 said:

he has a big mouth and needs to leave the social media to a specialist. 

Amen.  

I will vote for him because I like most of his policies and we were better off when he was in charge, not because I want to be his buddy.  He was not my first choice for the nominee, mainly because I felt others could do anything he could do with less noise and drama.  I’ve read a lot of accounts that claimed one-on-one he is the nicest person people ever met.  Maybe so, I don’t really care.  Politicians are tools for us to use to get good things done or prevent bad things from being done, nothing else.  
 

 

[deerslayer]

6 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

Grabbed the first link on google about it. https://reason.com/2024/07/10/the-2024-gop-platform-offers-only-a-passing-reference-to-the-second-amendment/

I've seen this in a few places though, including on the forum. Working at present, so i'm not gonna track it down.

*edit* From my lens, if the GOP isn't bolstering support, they aren't doing enough. IMHO

Yep, there was a thread about it.  They also toned down the abortion rhetoric.  Some feel this was a strategy to win over some midddle-of-the-road or low info types.  2A takes up less space, but is still there.  

[deerslayer]

23 minutes ago, TGO David said:

Donald Trump - Missed Me - T-Shirt – Nine Line Apparel

If I were a serious Trump fan, I would wear this every weekend.  

[Chucktshoes]

2 hours ago, TGO David said:

If divine providence is absent from the discussion of why a bullet meant to blow Trump's head off missed by a scant few millimeters and only because he turned his head at just the right moment... then the only thing we have left is that he survived purely by coincidence.

I'm not a fan of the idea of coincidence, so I attribute his survival to the idea that it wasn't his time to die yet because God isn't done with him on this earth.

Now, whether that means God is long suffering in his grace and allowed Trump to live another day because there is something keeping him from being "right with God" that still needs to be resolved [read: salvation] or if it means that Trump plays a role in some plan that God has... I don't know and it's not my place to say.  I do not and dare not speak for God on such matters.

But with all of that being said, I think we can agree on the simple fact that our nation will be electing its next president a few months from now and the options that we currently have are to either continue down the extremely disastrous road that we've been on for the last four years, governed by people who outwardly seem to hate our country and everything that it stands for, or we pivot back to Trump - a man who still seems to be the antithesis of that.

A bullet nearly irrevocably changed our options.  The fact that it didn't -- by sheer fluke or coincidence or whatever you want to call it -- feels to me like divine providence.

 

 I’m comfortable in saying and fully believe that all things work according to His will for the furtherance of His ends. I just am of the mind that we should be very cautious of laying that divine imprint on any specific instance.

A pastor who has a YT channel I enjoy, Mike Winger, he said something once, and I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but the basic premise was: People love to chalk all sorts of things up to divine intervention.  "God made the light turn green for me at that intersection", etc.  When is it actually?  The first thing to do is take what we know about who God is and what he wants to see happen.  If you can't draw a direct line between the divine hand you thought you saw at work and the God you know from Scripture, than calm down.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is that if we believe that God is at work at all times in all ways, in a sense, all is divine providence. What makes this moment deserving of special recognition and elevation? Is it God showing us action in an extraordinary way for His desires, or is it us ascribing extraordinary action to something because it aligns with our desires? I can’t answer that so I am simply advising caution when making statements regarding divine action.

2 hours ago, NoBanStan said:

I think a common misconception is that "something bad happened, so where is God?", asserting that he doesn't exist because things didn't go their way. God is always working, but that doesn't have to mean sunshine and rainbows through all things. The bible details immense amounts of suffering by even the most devout. We were given free will by the creator on high, but that's here, on earth.

God saved a lot of people that day, but didn't save that firefighter/father. Why? I don't know, but God does.  Always working doesn't mean we will always understand the plan. God doesn't owe us an explanation.

That said, I would say it’s crazy to think that Trump has some personal protection order that prevents death from God himself. He's just a man.
 

This excellent posts touches on what makes me uncomfortable about a lot of the divine action language that comes out surrounding Pres. Trump. It often walks very close, and sometimes crosses the point of elevating him in a manner that no man merits. 

1 hour ago, papa61 said:

the Bible tells us it rains on the just and unjust alike. It also says man has a prescribed time to die. 

My response to David covers the response to you, I just quoted you because I didn’t want to appear to be ignoring your response to me. 

Once again, I seek not to be dismissive or unduly critical, and offer these words with love and humility. If I seem extra cautious on this subject, it’s because I am. 

[Omega]

I've never really been a religious man, but this sidebar has me baffled.  Many of you who believe God can create the entire universe, can't make a bullet miss because he has a different plan for the target?  Really seems you think so little of him to be so dismissive of the idea that he could have simply had a plan and would not let anyone sidetrack it at that moment.  Yes, it could all be a coincidence, and I lean toward just a rushed shot from a shooter with bad marksmanship skills, but like I said, I am not a religious man.

[TGO David]

11 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

If I were a serious Trump fan, I would wear this every weekend.  

I would only wear it at home because wearing it out in public would invite interactions with people, and people are generally just the worst.   

 

[Chucktshoes]

1 minute ago, Omega said:

I've never really been a religious man, but this sidebar has me baffled.  Many of you who believe God can create the entire universe, can't make a bullet miss because he has a different plan for the target?  Really seems you think so little of him to be so dismissive of the idea that he could have simply had a plan and would not let anyone sidetrack it at that moment.  Yes, it could all be a coincidence, and I lean toward just a rushed shot from a shooter with bad marksmanship skills, but like I said, I am not a religious man.

For my part, it’s not a matter of “can“ it’s a matter of “feel comfortably saying did“. Those are two vastly different propositions.

[deerslayer]

10 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I would only wear it at home because wearing it out in public would invite interactions with people, and people are generally just the worst.   

 

F em.  

[Links2k]

6 hours ago, TGO David said:

Divine intervention.

Indeed! I hope it turns him into George Bailey. 

[Rambo84]

I have just read through the last 60+ posts and interestingly enough Divine Intervention has been the only answer the original question. I would pose a question to those questioning Divine Intervention: If not Divine Intervention, then what was it?

[Links2k]

5 hours ago, AuEagle said:

Watch: New Video Shows Trump Shooter Climbing To Roof - People Warning Police | ZeroHedge

This is the video I mentioned yesterday. There was an enormous lack of urgency by law enforcement to respond to the people pointing out the threat. 

[Snaveba]

Random luck. 

I am a Christian. I believe Christ died for our sins. However, I don’t believe God steps in and intervens in life like this. God gave us Free Will to make decisions for ourselves, for good or bad. With this Free Will also comes a hands-off approach.  If God intervened at times like this, that pretty much negates the idea of Free Will. I believe human history shows that God let’s things play out. Otherwise why didn’t he make the Covenant  shooter have a car wreck on the way to school that day. Or give Hitler a heart attack. Or was it Devine Intervention that saved Hitler from the bomb blast? If so, why?  Why not intervene with any other ruthless dictator that murders millions. Or a serial killers, etc.  

[papa61]

35 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

 I’m comfortable in saying and fully believe that all things work according to His will for the furtherance of His ends. I just am of the mind that we should be very cautious of laying that divine imprint on any specific instance.

A pastor who has a YT channel I enjoy, Mike Winger, he said something once, and I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but the basic premise was: People love to chalk all sorts of things up to divine intervention.  "God made the light turn green for me at that intersection", etc.  When is it actually?  The first thing to do is take what we know about who God is and what he wants to see happen.  If you can't draw a direct line between the divine hand you thought you saw at work and the God you know from Scripture, than calm down.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is that if we believe that God is at work at all times in all ways, in a sense, all is divine providence. What makes this moment deserving of special recognition and elevation? Is it God showing us action in an extraordinary way for His desires, or is it us ascribing extraordinary action to something because it aligns with our desires? I can’t answer that so I am simply advising caution when making statements regarding divine action.

This excellent posts touches on what makes me uncomfortable about a lot of the divine action language that comes out surrounding Pres. Trump. It often walks very close, and sometimes crosses the point of elevating him in a manner that no man merits. 

My response to David covers the response to you, I just quoted you because I didn’t want to appear to be ignoring your response to me. 

Once again, I seek not to be dismissive or unduly critical, and offer these words with love and humility. If I seem extra cautious on this subject, it’s because I am. 

 

25 minutes ago, Omega said:

I've never really been a religious man, but this sidebar has me baffled.  Many of you who believe God can create the entire universe, can't make a bullet miss because he has a different plan for the target?  Really seems you think so little of him to be so dismissive of the idea that he could have simply had a plan and would not let anyone sidetrack it at that moment.  Yes, it could all be a coincidence, and I lean toward just a rushed shot from a shooter with bad marksmanship skills, but like I said, I am not a religious man.

Would never consider I was being dismissed. There are a few people on here that I find offensive, Chuck is not one of them even when we disagree. Thanks
 

I will revert to the preacher in me now
I do not believe God cares in the slightest who leads what country nor if any of our nations even exist. When the Hebrews asked for a king, what did God tell Samuel? they have not rejected you they have rejected me (God) God did not appoint a king but told Samuel to harken unto the people. God is not interested in what a person aspires to or achieves. He does not mold every day of the world. He set it in motion and placed us here with free will as stewards of his creation. His will is that His word will stand throughout time regardless of man not because of mankind. I believe that each of us has a job to do but if we refuse God will send another IF it pleases him. Otherwise it will be set upon us as failure at judgement whether the task is done or not.
That said, I do believe this nation will continue to decline as long as we refuse to acknowledge the true and living God. I also believe that decline is inevitable. We can delay it but it will come to all nations.

[GlockSpock]

39 minutes ago, Links2k said:

Indeed! I hope it turns him into George Bailey. 

Wouldn't that be quiet the plot twist nobody is expecting.

2 hours ago, NoBanStan said:

Someone took the time to sync up the various videos.
 

 

One thing that may be armchair quarterbacking  but did cross my mind is the following. I read somewhere that a local officer confronted the guy as he was climbing the ladder but the shooter pointed his rifle a him so he backed away. You can also see a lot of agitated onlookers at the beginning on the video.

So you are in the middle of a rally and see someone that you suspect is about to take a shot at the ex-POTUS. Why not scream "Gun" as loud as you can? If you are LEO, simply discharging your weapon into the ground would achieve the desired effect. Is it just that everyone was way too afraid to be the "person that overreacted"?

While it seems extremely likely that the entire incident was based on poor planning, I also chalk a lot of it up to complacency and the status-quo.

[papa61]

26 minutes ago, Rambo84 said:

I have just read through the last 60+ posts and interestingly enough Divine Intervention has been the only answer the original question. I would pose a question to those questioning Divine Intervention: If not Divine Intervention, then what was it?

poor marksmanship. At under 300 yards it was a layup for anyone with any knowledge of how to shoot a rifle. 300 meters is a doable headshot. If your target is moving, center of mass, aim small miss small. Snipers are trained at much longer ranges, this was battlefield close.

[ArmyBrat61]

4 hours ago, ianb said:

At the risk of incurring additional personal derision in light of my lack of longevity here, I find no scriptural support for assigning Devine intervention on Trump's behalf, especially at the expense of an innocent bystander. I would appreciate scriptures cited for such claims. 

Daniel 2:21  God chooses the leaders of a nation. He chose and used Darius and Cyrus of Persia. Saul of Tarsus, all evil men at the time. God used an errant Prophet and his jack ass (who spoke) so I know that he can used a self important person like Trump.  I do not fully trust Donald Trump but I know that he is in God's hands, for God's purpose as we go into the End Times. I look at all events through a lens of  Biblical prophecy so I see things differently. The Messiah has come and the world stage is being set for His return. Israel is the key. Those that choose not to see it or believe it are free to do just that. God's plan is well above my pay grade, so I read the manual and watch. Trump is a piece of the puzzle, as was Stalin, Hitler, Washington, Tojo, Reagan and others. Watch and pray brothers....as we were commanded.

 

 

[NoBanStan]

42 minutes ago, Omega said:

I've never really been a religious man, but this sidebar has me baffled.  Many of you who believe God can create the entire universe, can't make a bullet miss because he has a different plan for the target?  Really seems you think so little of him to be so dismissive of the idea that he could have simply had a plan and would not let anyone sidetrack it at that moment.  Yes, it could all be a coincidence, and I lean toward just a rushed shot from a shooter with bad marksmanship skills, but like I said, I am not a religious man.

So God can do anything. Creation of the universe or causing a shooter to miss his intended target. He could very well have turned the bullet into dust if He so desired. Our point isn't to say God didn't do that or couldn't do that, it's to say that we simply don't know.

Faith his taught me that knowledge of God's work is positional. When it's time for you to do His bidding, you'll know. Others around you may not however, because it's not theirs to know. That's your personal relationship with Him at work.

Example.. recently I was in Phoenix AZ recently, having breakfast in a hotel with my son. It's just the two of us at a 4 seat table. The room fills up pretty quick and a family comes walking out with their plates looking for a seat. I overheard them talking about splitting up, so i offered to move us to a 2 seater nearby. Just common courtesy stuff. As we're sitting there, i kinda felt this draw to talk to the gentlemen, so i asked where he was from. Turns out he's from foothill ranch CA. I said "huh, that's funny, that's the only place i've ever been in CA". He chuckled and went back to eating. Oddly, i feel this pull to hear more from the guy, so i offered up "yea we're from TN" to which he replied, "oh wierd, we just got back from there. A little town in Wilson County".... which is where i live. I asked why he's in Pheonix and it turns out his family is there because his sister is undergoing her last chemo treatment from breast cancer. I just casually said "Oh man, I'll be praying for her" and to my shock, he says "OH THANK YOU SO MUCH, COME ON MOM!" and jumps up to have my pray over them.

I am NOT a people person. I chat on here a fair amount because i like the community, but that pull.. i just couldn't describe it. It was like I HAD to know more about this guy. That was God at work, through the holy spirit. I have no doubt. Did I work some kinda miracle? absolutely not, but was I a tool to help this family with their journey? Yeah, I believe I was the tool that God used at that moment.

His sister rang that bell btw.

[Links2k]

2 hours ago, papa61 said:

Near death experiences change the way one thinks, and very quickly. Not saying it will change him in that respect but he is changed.

Indeed they do. A long time ago in a land far away, I thought my ticket was about to be punched. I said a prayer, and a calmness came over me that I’ve never hadn’t experienced since my baptism.  It wasn’t my time. 
 

I also believe in miracles.  I was told by doctors on a Friday that I would be cut open on Monday for a medical issue.  It didn’t happen, and I left the hospital a few days later with meds and a lifestyle change. 
 

It wasn’t Trump’s time!

[NoBanStan]

2 minutes ago, Links2k said:

Indeed they do. A long time ago in a land far away, I thought my ticket was about to be punched. I said a prayer, and a calmness came over me that I’ve never hadn’t experienced since my baptism.  It wasn’t my time. 
 

I also believe in miracles.  I was told by doctors on a Friday that I would be cut open on Monday for a medical issue.  It didn’t happen, and I left the hospital a few days later with meds and a lifestyle change. 
 

It wasn’t Trump’s time!

Coolest thing I've see you post my dude. Hope you're recovering well.

[papa61]

y'all are goin to fast for me LOL. so here;

with USSS counter snipers around I wouldn't fire without notification, the report I heard was he fell. (probably back peddling as seen in Uvalde) Complacency and lack of skill/training were factors.

Saul/Paul was not a leader of nation but a leader within the Church, Didn't get into the others

9 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

Faith his taught me that knowledge of God's work is positional. When it's time for you to do His bidding, you'll know. Others around you may not however, because it's not theirs to know. That's your personal relationship with Him at work.

this^^^^^

[ianb]

38 minutes ago, Rambo84 said:

I have just read through the last 60+ posts and interestingly enough Divine Intervention has been the only answer the original question. I would pose a question to those questioning Divine Intervention: If not Divine Intervention, then what was it?

Good question. I'll play...

First I'll say that I really have no idea why the shooter missed Trump but I'll offer some possibilities. 

Could have been divine intervention. Maybe God directly intervened for the good of the country. 

Could have been blind dumb luck. 

Could have been Satan jumping in to keep chaos in play. 

Could have been a mosquito biting the shooter 

Could have been the sun in his eyes

Could have been that he was just shooting at Trump's ear. 

Divine intervention is no more or less likely than any of these so we can each choose what to believe. Truth be told, there probably is no cause and effect in play at all.

I'm personally leaning toward the Flying Spaghetti Monster having something to do with it.

[NoBanStan]

7 minutes ago, ianb said:

Good question. I'll play...

First I'll say that I really have no idea why the shooter missed Trump but I'll offer some possibilities. 

Could have been divine intervention. Maybe God directly intervened for the good of the country. 

Could have been blind dumb luck. 

Could have been Satan jumping in to keep chaos in play. 

Could have been a mosquito biting the shooter 

Could have been the sun in his eyes

Could have been that he was just shooting at Trump's ear. 

Divine intervention is no more or less likely than any of these so we can each choose what to believe. Truth be told, there probably is no cause and effect in play at all.

I'm personally leaning toward the Flying Spaghetti Monster having something to do with it.

I guess the question really should be, why does anyone really care? Both sides of the political isle say they want to save lives, yet the question is "why isn't he dead?"

Seems counterproductive in the first place. Why isn't he dead? Well, because he isn't...

[BigK]

24 minutes ago, Links2k said:

Indeed they do. A long time ago in a land far away, I thought my ticket was about to be punched. I said a prayer, and a calmness came over me that I’ve never hadn’t experienced since my baptism.  It wasn’t my time. 
 

I also believe in miracles.  I was told by doctors on a Friday that I would be cut open on Monday for a medical issue.  It didn’t happen, and I left the hospital a few days later with meds and a lifestyle change. 
 

It wasn’t Trump’s time!

That inner peace you describe is inspiring. It's been my experience that only God can make me feel like that.

Thanks for that testimony about the surgery that never happened.

[Links2k]

2 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

 

This excellent posts touches on what makes me uncomfortable about a lot of the divine action language that comes out surrounding Pres. Trump. It often walks very close, and sometimes crosses the point of elevating him in a manner that no man merits. 

 

I think the one thing I can agree with Trump on is the border. That being said, your post makes a very good point. 
 

I exclusively watch all Trump rallies live on RSBN, because that’s the one place I’m certain they will be shown. IMO every rally is the same regurgitated speech, but I mainly watch hoping to hear something new and to read the comment section.  Based upon the majority of comments read there, Trump has already been elevated to the status of deity. That makes me uncomfortable. 
 

 

Edited July 15 by Links2k

[papa61]

I do wish to add that I truly believe that God is capable and willing to heal our land. I have not lost my faith in God, I have lost my faith in mankind. When I say he doesn't care about nations or leaders, I mean outside of his children. If God's people got down in earnest and repented of their (our) complacency and begged for his forgiveness and help, our problems would be solved. My mind says those qualifications will not be met. For my grandchildren's sake I pray I am wrong.

As far as the what ifs and whys I'm reminded of something I read years back regarding the subject. If abortion had been legal at the time and place, Adolph Hitler would not have been born, same for Albert Schweitzer. We don't know what course this world will take. I will understand it all when I get home.
Just a chance, if you notice I'm not a benefactor at the moment. Membership came due at the same time as some very large Vet bills. We lost our Boy Timmy to arthritis and a pinched nerve in his lower spine. He lived a good life and was a great dog, why did he have to die and why did he lose the use of his hindquarters on the day of his vet appointment. Priorities change. One could speculate as to what God's will is at every turn but Jesus said do not tempt God.