House Rejects Senate Guns In Bars Bill

[Guest 270win]

I could deal with this as long as the house and senate will compromise on a bill with the age restricted location and drop the curfew. I rarely go into a restaurant that serves food after 11PM but there are some folks that may work late shifts and want something decent besides IHOP and Waffle House. The age restriction, though i don't agree with, would keep people out of what many people think of as bars.

It is interesting that TN does not define a bar or restaurant. My homestate, AR, defines a restaurant as a place that makes no more than 40% from alcohol sales as a part of the liquor licensing laws. Most restaurants can sell back home on Sundays but not many bars that are open to the public. Bars generally have to be flat out closed. I can carry in a restaurant in AR, not a bar.

I am not a native Tennessean so i hope those of you who have been here a long time and know your legislators can push to get this thing passed!!!! It is so silly i can go to Southaven, MS and eat at Chili's or back home to AR and carry but not here.

[Guest archerdr1]

that's why most times I want to go out for dinner, I go to Georgia. I only live about 2 miles from the state line so it is not that hard for me to go there instead of Chattanooga.

[Trekbike]

Does anybody have the list of how the House voted the second time around?

I'm 100% sure I'm going to have to send another "I'm disappointed" email to my rep but I wanted to make sure of how she voted first.

[Fallguy]

Does anybody have the list of how the House voted the second time around?

I'm 100% sure I'm going to have to send another "I'm disappointed" email to my rep but I wanted to make sure of how she voted first.

I keep checking the House Votes page for the bill. But no update yet.

[threeshot]

It is interesting that TN does not define a bar or restaurant. My homestate, AR, defines a restaurant as a place that makes no more than 40% from alcohol sales as a part of the liquor licensing laws. Most restaurants can sell back home on Sundays but not many bars that are open to the public. Bars generally have to be flat out closed. I can carry in a restaurant in AR, not a bar.

At one time, the HCP bill for restaurants tried to define a bar. That was removed due to it was unreasonable to expect the HCP holder to know what percentage of profit is made from food vs bar to determine the threshold of a "bar". IMO, I am glad the bill sponsor(s) removed that definition.

[Trekbike]

Thanks for the link.

[Guest canynracer]

We need to write our senators...tell them to pass it as is and get SOMETHING...at this point, its better than nothing

[JayC]

Can you elaborate please...

I ask because I have been to places that have the "NO ONE UNDER 21 ALLOWED" signs, but there wasn't anyone checking IDs as you went in.

Even more places that didn't have a sign posted, but smoking was allowed and no one under 21 was in there. Again....no carding going on.

You are saying these places aren't technically "age restricted", at least as it applies to this bill, is that right?

IANAL, but here is what the bill says...

and is not an age-restricted venue as defined in § 39-17-1802

So, lets go look at that section of the current TN code... ( Michie's Legal Resources )

(2) “Age-restricted venue†means a legal establishment that affirmatively restricts access to its buildings or facilities at all times to persons who are twenty-one (21) years of age or older by requiring each person who attempts to gain entry to those buildings or facilities to submit for inspection an acceptable form of identification for the express purpose of determining if the person is twenty-one (21) years of age or older;

So, as per my layman understanding of the way the bill is currently worded with the age-restriction language included, unless they card at the door, and verify your ID, and they only allow 21+ in, then it's not an age restricted venue. If they card and let 18 year olds in, not age restricted as per this bill.

Basically, you're right if they just have a sign up, or it doesn't count under this bill. (Or any other bill/law using 39-17-1802 as it's definition.

[Fallguy]

Great post JayC.

You seem very much correct.

If they don't card - Not age-restricted.

Even if the do card, but allow 18+ in - Not age-restricted.

At least for the purposes of legally defining age-restricted.

Of course the place still has to be a restaurant to be able to carry.....

[Guest rockytop]

Has it been pointed out by anyone that the results would have exactly the opposite if only one of our fine "aye" representatives had voted "nay" or simply not voted period (motion fails on a tie vote)? I am very disappointed in my rep. and will tell him so. He has been a pro-gunner in the past.

[Fallguy]

HB0962 by Todd - FLOOR VOTE: NONCONCUR IN SENATE AMENDMENT# 1 4/23/2009

Failed

Ayes...............................................45

Noes...............................................44

Present and not voting.......................2

Representatives voting aye were: Armstrong, Barker, Bass, Borchert, Brooks H, Brown, Casada, Coley, Curtiss, Eldridge, Favors, Ferguson, Fincher, Ford, Fraley, Hackworth, Hardaway, Harmon, Harrison, Haynes, Litz, Lollar, Maddox, Maggart, McCord, McCormick, McDaniel, McDonald, McManus, Montgomery, Mumpower, Odom, Pitts, Pruitt, Ramsey, Sargent, Shepard, Shipley, Sontany, Tidwell, Tindell, Turner M, Watson, Yokley, Mr. Speaker Williams -- 45.

Representatives voting no were: Bell, Bone, Brooks K, Camper, Campfield, Carr, Cobb C, Cobb T, Dean, DeBerry L, Dennis, Dunn, Evans, Faulkner, Fitzhugh, Floyd, Halford, Harwell, Hawk, Hensley, Hill, Johnson C, Johnson P, Jones S, Jones U, Kelsey, Kernell, Lundberg, Lynn, Matlock, Miller, Moore, Naifeh, Niceley, Rich, Richardson, Shaw, Stewart, Swafford, Towns, Turner L, Weaver, Windle, Winningham -- 44.

Representatives present and not voting were: Cobb J, Coleman -- 2.

--------------------------------------------------

I can't believe it!!! Lots of surprises

Nafieh actually voted No on nonconcur...

Munpower vote Aye.

There are others on both sides I'm surprised with as well.

Can't help but to wonder if the one Rep was right...that some may be confused as to exactly what a Yes or No vote on motion to nonconcur meant.

[G27]

Just wrote Lollar - I'm PISSED he voted to non-concur!

[canadienmike]

I can't believe it!!! Lots of surprises

Nafieh actually voted No on nonconcur...

Munpower vote Aye.

There are others on both sides I'm surprised with as well.

Can't help but to wonder if the one Rep was right...that some may be confused as to exactly what a Yes or No vote on motion to nonconcur meant.

I had to read over your thread a few times to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me when I saw Nafieh voted No. So is it possible that we lost this vote because some reps didn't take the time to clarify what a yes or no vote actually meant?

[raydog1]

Why would someone present not vote on this? What happened with Coleman?

[JayC]

Great post JayC.

You seem very much correct.

If they don't card - Not age-restricted.

Even if the do card, but allow 18+ in - Not age-restricted.

At least for the purposes of legally defining age-restricted.

Of course the place still has to be a restaurant to be able to carry.....

True, but keep in mind, that the current definition for restaurant is very good for us, I spoke with one of the folks at the ABC board today and they told me well over 90% of liquor licenses are 'restaurant liquor licenses'... They didn't have an exact percentage but she said the number of hotel, other, and special event are very few.

Still leaves some grey area on businesses that only serve beer, or wine... but the vast majority of the places most of us will go are safe to carry under this bill.

[wjh2657]

We are already losing sight of what the bill was for. It wasn't to allow us to swagger into some hootenanny with our sixguns showing. It never was meant to allow carry in pure bars and saloons. The bill was to allow us to carry into a place where we wanted to eat but the place had a bar inside(i.e. O'Charlys, Applebys, Chilis, etc.) We're arguing that they are after us because we can't get into a place that just serves alcohol. If you want to carry and get s---faced then you and I are way out of synch. I don't carry if I am going drinking just as I don't drive when I am drinking. I don't want a law that is going to let YOU do it either!

If I am going out and get stupid then I don't need to be involved in activities that require intelligence and coordination. And yes, I do go out and get stupid from time to time, I know the consequences and live with them.

The restrictions were not out of hand for what the bill was intended to do.

[JayC]

We are already losing sight of what the bill was for. It wasn't to allow us to swagger into some hootenanny with our sixguns showing. It never was meant to allow carry in pure bars and saloons. The bill was to allow us to carry into a place where we wanted to eat but the place had a bar inside(i.e. O'Charlys, Applebys, Chilis, etc.) We're arguing that they are after us because we can't get into a place that just serves alcohol. If you want to carry and get s---faced then you and I are way out of synch. I don't carry if I am going drinking just as I don't drive when I am drinking. I don't want a law that is going to let YOU do it either!

If I am going out and get stupid then I don't need to be involved in activities that require intelligence and coordination. And yes, I do go out and get stupid from time to time, I know the consequences and live with them.

The restrictions were not out of hand for what the bill was intended to do.

Well, there are a couple of issues with your logic. First, in the state of TN there isn't a 'bar' liquor license. With the exception of special events, and 'other' (which are strictly limited to certain government owned/operated and non-profit organizations, large tourist resorts) there are no 'bars' in the state of TN. So, virtually all of those 'pure bars' and saloons have been issued 'restaurant liquor licenses' under state law, and as such meet all the requirements of this bill as verified by the state.

See, TN law requires all 'restaurant' liquor licenses to serve food, and provide at least 75 seats for their customers to eat. And they verify this requirement as part of issuing the license. So under the current wording of this bill, with one small exception if they've been issued a restaurant liquor license they meet all the requirements (note, liquor license requires you to serve food 4 days a week not 5, so a very small number of businesses could have an issue if they're only open 4 days a week, or only server food 4 days a week but I suspect that is very rare).

I don't think anybody here is suggesting you go out and get drunk while carrying... but I can think of some traditional 'bars' I might want to go into from time to time, and enjoy things other than drinking. Maybe, I want to play darts, or billiards with some buddies after work... there are lots of valid reasons to go to a 'bar' after work and not drink.

[G27]

I don't think anybody here is suggesting you go out and get drunk while carrying... but I can think of some traditional 'bars' I might want to go into from time to time, and enjoy things other than drinking. Maybe, I want to play darts, or billiards with some buddies after work... there are lots of valid reasons to go to a 'bar' after work and not drink.

Yah, I've been a designated driver a few times - would like to be able to carry to protect myself when I'm not drinking.

[Oh Shoot]

...... there are lots of valid reasons to go to a 'bar' after work and not drink.

Absolutely. And one of them is simply to go socialize with friends who ARE gonna knock back a few. I don't drink anymore anyway, so the drill is not a new one for me - it's just that since getting HCP I have to decide between the friends' company or the pistol. I see no sane reason not to be able to have both.

- OS

[Guest Linoge]

We are already losing sight of what the bill was for. It wasn't to allow us to swagger into some hootenanny with our sixguns showing. It never was meant to allow carry in pure bars and saloons.

1. Good job supporting/falling into/spreading the typical hoplophobic stereotypes.

2. There is no legally-defined "bar" in Tennessee.

3. Why should I be rendered legally incapable of adequately defending myself simply becuase I accompany some friends to an establishment that has an age limit?

[Guest bkelm18]

Well, when does this go back to the Senate?

[Guest justme]

anonym.to - free dereferer service

April 23, 2009 12:47 PM CDT

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - The House has voted 45-44 to reject Senate changes to a bill to allow people with handgun permits to carry their weapons into establishments that sell alcoholic drinks.

The House had earlier passed the proposal sponsored Rep. Curry Todd (R-Collierville) that included an 11 p.m. to 5 a.m. curfew, and a ban on bringing guns into age-restricted bars.

The Senate version does not include those restrictions.

The Senate now has the option of agreeing to the original House version, or the a conference committee will be appointed to try to seek a compromise.

your tax dollars at work...makes you proud.

now has anyone taken the time to look at the lie the "news" keeps repeating infinitum--"Guns in bars"...these "news" people need a letter written to inform each one that guns in bars simply is not now legal, and it will not be under this legislation...repeat the lie over and over enough...

all of the news unfit to print.

[JayC]

I wasn't sure whether to post that information about liquor licenses before the bill was passed, I don't want word getting out just how open the bill is for fear that some repcritters would change their votes.

Best we all keep this little bit of good news under our belts until after it become law.

[G27]

I wasn't sure whether to post that information about liquor licenses before the bill was passed, I don't want word getting out just how open the bill is for fear that some repcritters would change their votes.

Best we all keep this little bit of good news under our belts until after it become law.

So if I read you correctly - if/when this passes we'll be able to carry into any establishment that serves by the drink?

[Guest Gun Geek]

Depends on the wording of the bill. If it defines "age restricted" then no. As most if not all "bars" or "Saloons" are now age restricted so that they can allow smoking in accordance with the new smoking bans.