Pulled on an intruder

[molonlabetn]

The only one of us who was actually there felt threatened enough by the situation to warrant displaying his weapon. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[The Rabbi]

The only one of us who was actually there felt threatened enough by the situation to warrant displaying his weapon. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Depends on whether feeling threatened was reasonable or not. And I dont have enough info to decide that.

[2000silverz28]

Rabbi why don't you just drop it? Why do you have to be negative in all your posts on the board? Do you ever have anything positive to say?

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi why don't you just drop it? Why do you have to be negative in all your posts on the board? Do you ever have anything positive to say?

Excuse me. I thought this was a discussion board. That means an exchange of views. If you want a board where everyone agrees on everything go over to FFF.

[Guest Phantom6]

Isn't this situation the whole reason HB 1907(Castle Doctrine) was recently passed. ... After all the LE has self defense training that the "average" citizen does not ...

First of all, the average gun owner/permit holder has not heard or does not understand the term curtilage. It's a legal term which is addressed in Tennessee law regarding dealing with (in this case) un-invited persons on your property immediately outside of your dwelling or any structure or portion that you are normally occupying on a continuous or semi-continuous basis. Heck, I have people in almost every carry permit class that still think that if they shoot someone on their front porch they need to drag 'em inside the door of the home. Disregarding the fact that the forensic evidence would destroy this action upon first blush, that's just plain rediculous.

Secondly, as a holder of a carry permit issued by the Tennessee Department of Safety I do not consider myself or any other permit holder for that matter, "average". If I were average I would bitch and moan about the nature of things when I hear or see in the news stories about the thugs and miscreants terrorizing surrounding society but would take little or no proactive or preventative measures to help my family or myself. I am not average so I choose to take positive steps in my family's and my own defense.

That being said, it is my firm belief that if you are going to either own or carry a gun for personal protection purposes then you owe it not only to your family and yourself but to your community as well to be well trained to use it legally, effectivly and efficiently. The legal stuff is fairly straight forward and some of it can be learned in the carry permit class and/or (preferably) by doing some fairly simple research of the T.C.A. which is well published. The effictive and efficient part must be handled through some fairly comprehensive classroom and range training. I admonish my students in each and every one of my carry permit classes that if they think they are qualified to carry a gun in the defense of their families and themselves in their homes or on the streets they are deluding themselves and if they survive a life threatening encounter unscathed either physically, legally or financially they are nothing short of lucky.

There are a number of intermediate and advanced training programs available throughout the state and the country. As a basis of instruction, because our instructors are NRA certified, our school offers their Personal Protection in the Home (intermediate) and Personal Protection Outside the Home (advanced defensive handgunning) classes. An entire segment of both of these classes is required by the NRA to be taught by a P.O.S.T. (Peace Officer Standards and Training) certified Police training officer or an attorney with a current Bar Assoc. card. Our school uses a P.O.S.T. certified LEO trainer that has had a lot of experience (14 years) in investigating gun crimes in general and homicides in particular.

Whether you choose to take the training from our school or not doesn't matter so long as you make the commitment to get the training from someone that is qualified and follow through on it. This training should be on-going as well. You should drill monthly and every couple of years at the very least you should update your training. All professionals such as doctors, nurses, pilots, insurance agents, marketing professionals etc. are required by their industry organizations or their state and/or federal regulatory agencies to take continuing education to stay sharp and learn new skills and techniques in order to stay employed or advance in their jobs.

I don't know about the rest of you out there but this means more to me than my job. I can deal with loosing my job because I can always get another consulting and training job or some type of job if need be but I only get one life. More importantly I only have one family.

If what I have just spent the last five minutes typing sounds like a commercial for our family's firearms training school then I did not make my point sufficiently clear and I apologize. Don't trust your life and liberty or the lives and future of those you love to basic state mandated training. Don't be an average carry permit holder.

[The Rabbi]

That being said, it is my firm belief that if you are going to either own or carry a gun for personal protection purposes then you owe it not only to your family and yourself but to your community as well to be well trained to use it legally, effectivly and efficiently. The legal stuff is fairly straight forward and some of it can be learned in the carry permit class and/or (preferably) by doing some fairly simple research of the T.C.A. which is well published. The effictive and efficient part must be handled through some fairly comprehensive classroom and range training. I admonish my students in each and every one of my carry permit classes that if they think they are qualified to carry a gun in the defense of their families and themselves in their homes or on the streets they are deluding themselves and if they survive a life threatening encounter unscathed either physically, legally or financially they are nothing short of lucky.

And yet in the encounters I read about, the citizens in question had minimal training, usually just knowing how to operate a gun. But they manage to come through it just fine, even without "comprehensive classroom and range training." And the one case that comes to mind where an actual trainer was involved (that was Tyler TX) it ended with the person's death.

I realize this is mom and apple pie stuff in the gun community, but telling someone there are "deluded" if they want to carry without such extensive training is just, imho, scare tactics.

Obviously the more competant a person is with his gun the better off he will be. But that doesnt thrust extensive training into the realm of necessary.

[molonlabetn]

I guess the bottom line is to simply use common-sense, and only ever use the minimum level of force that is required in order to stop the threat.

[saintsfanbrian]

In my opinion, the minimum amount of force to stop this perceived threat was used. He asked the person to stop, they didn't. The other thing he could have done is run up to the person and forcibly stop them by putting hands on him, possibly resulting in a law-suit. He could have gone inside in which case, had this been a true "home invasion" the person running up the path had momentum on their side to break in the door while the home owners back was turned. Pulling his gun, whether aimed at this "would be intruder" or not stopped the person in their tracks and allowed time for EVERYONE to realize what the situation was. Had he shot the person, I doubt not that he would have had a bit of time to "cool off" in the county jail.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Yeah, most encounters are over quickly, with minimal, if any, bloodshed. That doesn't mean they will all go so smoothly. Why would you assume that the one you could become involved in will go just as smoothly? Maybe the guy who threatens you will be a career gang-banger from South-Central L.A., or a drug-addict high on PCP, or maybe he'll be a combat veteran who snapped from PTSD and thinks you're an insurgent? There's no way in knowing, so planning for easy times is a mite foolish, in my opinion. Does that mean you have to barricade the windows and lock and load the .50 caliber MG? No, but it does mean you should be practicing and learning the most you can.

The TN Handgun Carry Permit class teaches Pistol Marksmanship, the basic fundamentals required to safely, accurately, and effectively use a handgun. It does not teach Combat Pistolmanship. There is a big difference. Pistol Marksmanship is the crawling part of it. Combat Pistolmanship is the running part of the old "crawl, then walk, then run" adage. The training you get in between and your range time making yourself better is the walking part. For those who rest on the laurels of their Department of Safety Training Certificate, thinking that that training will get them through a lethal force encounter, I wish them the best of luck. They'll need it. (Murphy's: A terrible law, but a great beer.) For the record, during my classes, I try to take a few minutes to touch on some of the differences, so that my students have an appreciation for them, and can then see that they are only recieving a minimal amount of training.

As for the original poster's situation, I agree, he had other options. But, I wasn't there, he was. It's not my call to make, it was his. The standard is not "Well, what would I do in that situation?" The standard is "Was he in fear for his life or from serious bodily harm?" If he can answer yes, and articulate his reasons for that fear, then he's good-to-go.

Had it been me, my subsequent report to the cops would have gone like this:

Me: Officer, I was sitting in my house at 5:30 am when I heard the doorbell ring. As it seems a little early for door-to-door salesmen or the Jehovah's Witnesses, I was a bit skeptical, so I slipped a pistol into my robe pocket before answering the door. When I got there, there was no one at the door, so I stepped outside to investigate. As I did, I saw a stranger running up my driveway at me, waving his arms. I don'y know him, and didn't know what he was doing, so I yelled at him to stop. He ignored me, even after I yelled several times. I was afraid of him at that point. For all I know, he was scoping out empty houses, so he could rob them. Afterall, my next door neighbor is out fo town. Maybe he knew it, but got the wrong address? After yelling several times for him to stop, and him ignoring me, I took my pistol out of my pocket, so that I could defend myself if it came to that. At that point, he stopped and became compliant. I just want to file a report, because I don't want you to get a report of a crazy guy waving a gun around the neighborhood. I was afraid for my life at that moment. You might want to let him know that running towards a stranger, especially after being told to stop several times, is not such a good idea. Thankfully, it ended well.

It is all about how you articulate the situation to the police. Explain yourself and your actions. Just be darn sure you can explain why you felt you were in serious danger.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

And, yes, this is a discussion forum, where the exchange of ideas and opinions is suppose to occur. I think the members here do a great job of that, for the most part. It's a lot better than certain forums named for a rifle invented by Eugene Stoner. There, you'd get a lot of childish responses, such as "Shoot his dog.", or bickering and in-fighting. That doesn't happen here, and I like that.

Thank you to those who contribute here, you make this place a nice respite from most of the other gun forums on the internet.

[Guest Hyaloid]

And, yes, this is a discussion forum, where the exchange of ideas and opinions is suppose to occur. I think the members here do a great job of that, for the most part. It's a lot better than certain forums named for a rifle invented by Eugene Stoner. There, you'd get a lot of childish responses, such as "Shoot his dog.", or bickering and in-fighting. That doesn't happen here, and I like that.

Thank you to those who contribute here, you make this place a nice respite from most of the other gun forums on the internet.

Shut up or I'll shoot your dog.

I keed I keed! I agree, it's nice to have a place to post that doesn't end up in SCREAMING MATCHES and childish antics. Three cheers for TGO!

[Urse]

(Murphy's: A terrible law, but a great beer.)

+1:D

If we all agreed we would never learn anything!

[molonlabetn]

+1:D

If we all agreed we would never learn anything!

I think it's safe to say that we learn something every day

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

"5:30AM isnt dark"

Am I the only one who lives in a part of the state where it is most definitely dark at 5:30 AM??? I wake up every day at 4:30, leave the house at 5:30, and it's most definitely still dark in Tipton County. By the time I get halfway through Memphis (6ish) it's light. But not at 5:30. I dont know why that li'l blurb jumped out at me but it did.

[Punisher84]

Am I the only one who lives in a part of the state where it is most definitely dark at 5:30 AM??? I wake up every day at 4:30, leave the house at 5:30, and it's most definitely still dark in Tipton County.

Still dark enough to where if someone is running at me and not stopping they are either getting something broke, pepper sprayed, or drawn down on.

Rabbi, in a way I understand your criticism as you seem to never jump the gun, but you do play devil's advocate far to well. You stated you did not have enough to facts to judge either way, yet you repeatedly judged. You attempted to make amends at the end by saying you didn't have all the facts, but yet you are still judging someone else's actions. I won't sit here and say GOOD JOB BRAVO! because it may not have been the necessary thing to do, but he did what he felt was necessary and the situation ended up fine. Don't be so negative. Rabbi's are supposed to be optimistic.

[Urse]

Rabbi you make this a more interesting place to be. Even though I do not necessarily agree with some of your views. I do think that your ability to nit-pick is an asset. It stimulates thought/discussion and after all that is the whole point of this forum. As far as negative, try discussing Glocks with Marswolf. Lighten up guys we are not solving the worlds problems and your(my) opinions really are just like ...holes(you know the rest).

P.S. I will say it again...Good Job Wimpy!

[Marswolf]

Rabbi you make this a more interesting place to be. Even though I do not necessarily agree with some of your views. I do think that your ability to nit-pick is an asset. It stimulates thought/discussion and after all that is the whole point of this forum. As far as negative, try discussing Glocks with Marswolf.

Oh...you want to talk about Glocks?

What scares me is that I increasingly agree with The Rabbi.

[Guest Steelharp]

Has anyone else noticed that while we continue talk about this, the only person who knows exactly what happened, the person who started the thread, "Wimpy," has never returned to it to address what's being discussed?

Perhaps he's living up/down to his handle...

[Marswolf]

Has anyone else noticed that while we continue talk about this, the only person who knows exactly what happened, the person who started the thread,

Yeah, I noticed that. Guess he's over at Glock Talk - which explains a lot.

[Urse]

I would imagine that you will begin to see alot of GT strays. They just went to a paid tier membership.

[Marswolf]

I would imagine that you will begin to see alot of GT strays. They just went to a paid tier membership.

Oh, well I guess I'll have to stop going there.

Come to think of I never go there anyway. :

[The Rabbi]

Oh...you want to talk about Glocks?

What scares me is that I increasingly agree with The Rabbi.

You cannot resist the Dark Side for long, young apprentice. It beckons you. Come on over.....

[Urse]

Oh, well I guess I'll have to stop going there.

Come to think of I never go there anyway. :

A basic membership is still free but you have to pay if you want to enable the search function and some other blah,blah features. I gave up on their forum awhile ago. I just go there to check the classifieds for deals.

You cannot resist the Dark Side for long, young apprentice. It beckons you. Come on over.....

"Jedi Masters don't go crazy-they just get eccentric"

[Guest WIMPY]

This thread sparked a lot more comment than i would have thought. The young man ran the width of one lot & part of another - 90' in the street, up my drive 40' & then down the walk from the drive to the house 30'. as soon as he started down the walk I started telling him to stop, he got too close 10 - 15' before I presented my weapon. I could tell he did not have anything in his hands but I have about 40 years on him & could not tell his intentions. Quess I should have replied earlier as I was watching the thread develop but chose not to.

[Guest Phantom6]

I realize this is mom and apple pie stuff in the gun community, but telling someone there are "deluded" if they want to carry without such extensive training is just, imho, scare tactics.

Obviously the more competant a person is with his gun the better off he will be. But that doesnt thrust extensive training into the realm of necessary.

I don't use scare tactics in my instruction or my marketing. I don't have to. The media provides enough frieghtening information regarding the terrorizing of innocents by bad people. After the young couple in Knoxville were car-jacked, toutured and killed, my phone rang off the wall. BTW if you look up the term "delude" you will find that the definition according to Merriam Webster Online is

1 : to mislead the mind or judgment of : DECEIVE, TRICK

IMO I would be remiss in my duties not only as an instructor but as a member of my community if I misled my student's minds or caused them to use poor judgement in an armed encounter by telling my students "Now you are prepared". Because they are not. My goodness the state only essentially requires 48 hits on the paper with 75% of them being somewhere within the outer scoring ring (7) of the B-27 target. What they are qualified to be are relatively safe shooters that are less likely to hurt themselves or others on a range or hopefully in public, armed with the very basics of law regarding when you may and when you may not use deadly force against an attacker. That's it, nothing more. ETS is correct when he says it's combat pistol marksmanship that will go farther in getting you through a violent encounter. And I stand by the rest of my statement as well when I stated that

if they survive a life threatening encounter unscathed either physically, legally or financially they are nothing short of lucky.

Since 1 in 32 Americans either are or have been incarcerated we are bound to run into a BG at some point. It is my belief that folks need to understand the Combat Mindset and determine whether they are actually capable of using deadly force and continuing the fight until they either prevail or everything fades to black. They need to understand the concept of SNS(Sympathetic Nervous System)- Overload and just how that effects you in a highly stressfull situation and quite frankly, I can't think of a more stressfull situation than an armed encounter. ETS mentioned the extremely short time span of deadly encounters. This fact wouldn't be so nearly so important except that most deadly encounters happen at less than five feet! Please understand I said less than 5 FEET not 5 yds. That's damned near touching didtance. The student needs to understand this concept of Time and Space Compression and its effects on their reaction to an armed encounter.

The 3 concepts mentioned above are just the tip of a very large iceberg. There is no time for this in a carry permit class. IMHO the TN Carry Permit class is just the first step in a journey.

Back to the original question, given the information at hand and considering the circumstances as related, I'd have to say that Wimpy performed just fine and was well within the law.

Oh, and welcome back to the thread Wimpy.