Bellevue Kroger

[DaveTN]

If there is no such thing as a human right, a right to life for example...

That is exactly where I believe my right to bear arms comes from.

The courts have stood me in front of them and explained to me personally that while I may believe I have a right to bear arms; I do not.

I can’t afford to go through that again. So one of you need to step up and try the “right to life†argument. Any takers?

[Marswolf]

Tennessee's Constitution guarantees: "That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime."

The Tennessee legislature clearly has the authority under the Constitution to determine when and if we carry arms. Constitutionally, carrying arms is not a right. Maybe it is a right if we rely on a higher authority, but the higher authority does not write Tennessee Code.

If enough people get frightened by other citizens carrying handguns, the legislature will modify the state code to accommodate that fear. Insisting on flaunting your "right" to carry may just get that right repealed or restricted.

[The Rabbi]

If there is no such thing as a human right, a right to life for example, then why are genocide, plague, slavery and famine such tragedies?

People created in the image of God don't all have an equal claim to existence? It certainly cannot be proven that we don't.

Huh?

Those things are tragedies because innocent people are dying. It has nothing to do with denying them a right. Rights don't enter into that discussion at all.

[Mike.357]

I just want to be left alone when I am commiting no crime, and not perpetrating any harm upon my fellow man.

Thats what I would like to have back.

[molonlabetn]

Huh?

Those things are tragedies because innocent people are dying. It has nothing to do with denying them a right. Rights don't enter into that discussion at all.

Why does that matter if they have no right to live?

[ZZRguy]

I understand the pro's and con's for both oc and cc, but one of the reasons I rarely oc is there are a few people up to no good and if someone see's your handgun and say to their buddy Hey watch this and call the police and say a guy pointed a gun at me and gives them my description, the police will act first & ask questions later. The guy that called might stick around or might not. I know if he calls 911 the police will have his number but if the call is made on the main line some dept. do not have caller id on their main phone line, but either way I am sure the truth will come out, and I know this a long shot and probably will never happen, Just a thought .

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Huh?

Those things are tragedies because innocent people are dying. It has nothing to do with denying them a right. Rights don't enter into that discussion at all.

What ever happened to those rights which our founding fathers found to be self-evident, such as the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

[Marswolf]

What ever happened to those rights which our founding fathers found to be self-evident, such as the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

They are now being ignored because people want their "entitlements."

[bteague2]

Frankly, I cannot help but wonder if at some base level the people who advocate open carry are just looking for a fight with the establishment. And by that I mean looking to change the way things are through belligerence rather than diplomacy. I'd rather spend my time and energy trying to change laws than by jousting with windmills. Really, what good does it do to piss off the manager at Kroger and give him a sour opinion of gun owners when all he'll do in turn is vote down pro-gun laws the next time the polls are open?

In no way did I try to piss of the manager, I did not know that this particular kroger would not like my business. But I was very polite and in no way could have given the manager a sour opinion of anything. I finished getting my supplies for work and as soon as I could set my stuff down I pulled my t-shirt over it, it didn't help any and printed so bad a blind person would have noticed but I didn't want to start anything especially since he had been reasonable and asked me not to bring it back, he could have asked me to leave and remove it but he let me finish.

Apparently I need to post more about this situation, I was dressed for work I am a camp counselor. I was wearing a blue shirt that says "Whippoorwill Farm Day Camp Staff" and cargo khaki shorts and teva sandals.

Open carrying vs concealed carrying is a debate that will never end probably until the law changes in one way or another. But just because you don't like it or feel comfortable doesn't mean people who do/are shouldn't.

You guys talk about community leaders open carrying and setting an example, somebody has to start everything. Some of you are business owners, managers, but we're all adults; why not step up and start something? If the very "pro gun" people are too scared to do it why on earth would the "real" community leaders like doctors, lawyers and such do it?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I open carry frequently. I even walked into a Region's Bank in downtown Franklin not long ago. Not a single person gave me a second look. I also open carry into the local Stop 'n Rob (Exxon Tiger Market near I-24, Exit 81) on a frequent basis. I've never noticed anyone paying me any extra attention.

Why do I open carry? Well, I don't like IWB holsters, as I've never found one that's comfortable to me. So, my carry method is a belt slide holster at about 4:30. Normally, I wear an open, button-up shirt over my gun. Since the A/C in my car isn't working, it gets warm in my car. So, I take off the shirt inside the car (this also aids in drawing the gun, should I need to do so while driving). If I'm just going in for a minute, I rarely toss on the cover shirt.

I haven't yet had someone say something to me about open carrying. Nor have I ever had someone seem startled or concerned. Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that I wear my hair in a 'high & tight', I frequently wear 5.11 pants, a polo shirt, and a Galco Wilderness Instructor's belt. Add to that the fact that I carry myself with military bearing, and many people assume I'm a cop. (I get asked that question more times than I care to count.) I'm not trying to look like a cop, I just look like many other firearms professionals.

[DaveTN]

Open carrying vs concealed carrying is a debate that will never end probably until the law changes in one way or another. But just because you don't like it or feel comfortable doesn't mean people who do/are shouldn't.

You guys talk about community leaders open carrying and setting an example, somebody has to start everything. Some of you are business owners, managers, but we're all adults; why not step up and start something? If the very "pro gun" people are too scared to do it why on earth would the "real" community leaders like doctors, lawyers and such do it?

I’m not sure what law you want to change; open carry is legal in Tennessee if you have a permit. However… the debate will never end. The debate isn’t over legality, the debate between gun owners is whether or not it is a good idea (that’s up to you), and whether or not we (as a group) think it is a good idea to get into a pizzing match with those who either fear; or just don’t like it that it is legal.

How do you think the carry laws would do if it was put on a ballot in a general election? I don’t know which way it would go, but I know its close enough that I would not want to force the issue.

But I have a question… Are you truly surprised that you get negative responses when you open carry?

Call Kroger corporate and complain. I for one would be interested in what they say. My WAG would be that they will politely tell you that the will not override the decision of the store manager. In 10 years Tennessee has issued permits to a number of people equal to less than 3% of the population. Hardly a number anyone will care about.

I tried to ship a gun through UPS in Murfreesboro. When I declared it at the counter of the terminal the guy said he had to get the “Security Officerâ€. The shipment was perfectly legal and did not violate any UPS policy. (I was shipping a shot gun to Chattanooga).

I called UPS corporate. The first girl I talked with told me that she didn’t know much about guns except that they scared her and she wanted nothing to do with them. I then talked with a supervisor and he would not over ride the decision of the guy at UPS. I drove it to Chattanooga.

[towerclimber37]

Dave, I know what you mean when it comes to UPS, I was shipping a pistol to a gunshop in GA for my brother..and UPS wouldn't ship it..I went to fedex and they shipped it for me.

sooo from now on, FEDEX will get all my business and I'm happy to flush big brown.

[The Rabbi]

What ever happened to those rights which our founding fathers found to be self-evident, such as the rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?"

Saying something is "self evident" mean you have no proof for it.

Again, no one has yet demonstrated a meaningful difference between depriving someone of a right and not having a right to begin with.

I think this is important because if people say "well, we have a right to keep and bear arms" and leave it at that, then they will eventually lose it. I maintain rights are awarded based on societal norms. When society deems a right not to exist, it wont. There is no RKBA in NYC. It doesn't exist because the population there does not deem it a right. There is a right in TN not because the constitution says so, but because most people believe there is such a thing. And even there, as we have seen with the carry permits, that right is actually considered a privilege accorded by the gov't, despite the plain language of the TN constitution. So we currently have no "right" to carry in this state, all we have is a privilege, which must be zealously guarded.

[Mike.357]

and UPS wouldn't ship it..I went to fedex and

This is kind of off topic but you comparing UPS and FedEx reminded me.

:popcorn:The last time I was in Kingsport about a week and a half ago we were headed up 11W towards Bristol. Just past where the new Dicks store is going in there had been a wreck. Now this is no lie, Tower maybe you saw it on the news up there or in the paper. There was a UPS truck and a Fed Ex truck wrecked together in a ditch on the north side of the road. I hope no one was injured but it was pretty obvious to me that the two drivers had to have been racing :eek:to make a stop at the same place. They were both on their side right next to a side street. The side road was too narrow for two trucks and I am guessing neither driver gave way. I am also guessing their deliveries were delayed that day.

Now back to our regularly scheduled argument......

[Marswolf]

Here you go Mike:

Rivals run afoul in Kingsport wreck; FedEx and UPS drivers sustain minor injuries

Published 07/26/2007 By David Grace

Kingsport Police are investigating a Thursday morning collision involving FedEx and UPS delivery trucks.

Occurring on East Stone Drive near Packing House Road, the wreck is under investigation with charges pending. Both drivers were transported for treatment of minor injuries. Photo by David Grace.

Back on topic....

What DaveTN said. This isn't about the law, it's about whether it is in our best interest to OC considering that privilege can be taken away from us by the legislature at any time.

Only reason I OC is because my employer wants me to do so, but that policy has changed three times in four years and each time it has been to become more discreet. I suspect that trend will continue as we get further away in time from the US terrorist attacks and will reverse to become more obvious when the next attacks occur. Having armed officials visible was reassuring to the public for a while, but now is more disturbing than reassuring.

The only reason I see to OC in an urban environment is because you want people to see that you have a gun. Like my wife, I've come to question the motives of those who insist on doing OC. They tend to be viewed as cowboys until proven innocent.

This is a matter of perception rather than reality. Ordinary citizens carrying a gun on their side are perceived as a threat by John Q. Public rather than as defenders.

I see the VCDL members in Virginia having OC picnics in city parks. This is just dumb. The purpose is to make a point, not to protect the picnickers or those around them. If they keep it up, the end result is not going to be the public suddenly becoming aware that guns in the hands of the citizens is good to prevent crime. The result will be Virginia eliminating open carry for everyone.

We are already seeing banks in our area putting up no-carry signs because of one incident. If you keep pressing the matter at Kroger, you will see signs go up there and at dozens of other stores. That's a prediction. They aren't going to cater to our 3% of gun packers if they think they will lose 4% of their customers to posting stores because they allow us to open carry. It's dollars and cents, and I don't think we are on the winning side in this pissing match.

[molonlabetn]

A privilege is only a privilege if one exercises it in greater fear of the repercussions for it, than not. A right is exercised regardless of the consequences, with greater consideration given to the merit of doing so, than the fear of rejection.

Most gun owners seem to be more concerned with the views and opinion of the general public and government, than their own well-being... afraid that their privileges will be taken away. I think this has alot to do with most people being unwilling to think of themselves as social outcasts, thus they imitate 'normal' non-gun-owning people in order to fit in, and then vote secretly, hoping that others will keep the outward spirit of the RKBA alive for them. Those people have no place to criticise others' activism.

The RKBA only really exists when claimed and exercised... So, I must agree that most will only ever have a privilege, because that's all they were seeking. That's the choice of the individual, not to be blamed on anyone else.

[Marswolf]

Most gun owners seem to be more concerned with the views and opinion of the general public and government, than their own well-being

Actually that is my concern in this. It is not in our best interest to convince the legislature to eliminate open carry by our actions - and I fear that is exactly what will happen if we ignore public perception.

I don't think our making a public show of having a protection handgun is going to be viewed favorably by the public. I think they will instead demand that the legislature restrict us to prevent it.

[molonlabetn]

Frankly, that's the type of government which the 2nd Amendment was meant to allow us to defend ourselves from.

It isn't a right unless you act upon it. Want proof that it is a right? Try preventing me.

addendum:

Public and Governmental acceptance of a given practice does not constitute a 'right', and non-acceptance does not constitute a lack thereof.

[The Rabbi]

A privilege is only a privilege if one exercises it in greater fear of the repercussions for it, than not. A right is exercised regardless of the consequences, with greater consideration given to the merit of doing so, than the fear of rejection.

Most gun owners seem to be more concerned with the views and opinion of the general public and government, than their own well-being... afraid that their privileges will be taken away. I think this has alot to do with most people being unwilling to think of themselves as social outcasts, thus they imitate 'normal' non-gun-owning people in order to fit in, and then vote secretly, hoping that others will keep the outward spirit of the RKBA alive for them. Those people have no place to criticise others' activism.

The RKBA only really exists when claimed and exercised... So, I must agree that most will only ever have a privilege, because that's all they were seeking. That's the choice of the individual, not to be blamed on anyone else.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

The difference between a right and a privilege is that with a right the gov't has to demonstrate a compelling reason to deny it. With a privilege the individual has to demonstrate that he is worthy of having it. Which one of those two categories does our permit scheme fit into?

Most gun owners "imitate normal people" because most gun owners ARE normal people. The people off this forum whom I have actually met in my shop are largely indistinguishable from anyone else in their age/sex/profession category except for their interest in guns. (except you, Steelharp).

As said well already, with rights and privileges come responsibilities. We have a responsibility to project an image of responsible law-abiding people. Today someone with a gun openly on his hip and no uniform projects the image in the public mind of a criminal. That isn't right, nor is it truthful but it is the case.

As for "preventing" you, sitting behind a keyboard and screen makes the men the bravest of martyrs.

[DaveTN]

Frankly, that's the type of government which the 2nd Amendment was meant to allow us to defend ourselves from.

It isn't a right unless you act upon it. Want proof that it is a right? Try preventing me.

addendum:

Public and Governmental acceptance of a given practice does not constitute a 'right', and non-acceptance does not constitute a lack thereof.

Get one of your friends or family that doesn’t have a permit to strap on a firearm in open carry and go walking around with you. Rights don’t require permits.

Talk is cheap.

I’m curious… how long have you had a carry permit?

[molonlabetn]

As for "preventing" you, sitting behind a keyboard and screen makes the men the bravest of martyrs.

I'm pretty easy to find.

If OC was outlawed, I wouldn't OC... That's simply prudent, since it's not worth starting a freaking revolution over. But it's a rather pointless provision to have if those who want to use it are disparaged, as if they are somehow worse than folks who carry concealed. Our enemies draw no distinction.

Most of us want the carry of firearms to become commonplace in society. It will either be accepted or rejected if we do something to forward that ideal... but it will surely be subdued if we do nothing (or, do it unnoticed).

Get one of your friends or family that doesn’t have a permit to strap on a firearm in open carry and go walking around with you. Rights don’t require permits.

Talk is cheap.

I’m curious… how long have you had a carry permit?

5 years.

By what authority does the government restrict the wearing of arms? Brute force.

That's not the way it was intended, and if you base whether or not you have a particular right, based on the opinion of the government, you will always be at their mercy. I am aware that you have fought this battle before, you know that the system is wrong. It is simply tyranny and intimidation.

[DaveTN]

That's not the way it was intended, and if you base whether or not you have a particular right, based on the opinion of the government, you will always be at their mercy. I am aware that you have fought this battle before, you know that the system is wrong. It is simply tyranny and intimidation.

But you being in denial and trying to tell people that they have rights that they do not have does not help any of us. I have said before that I believe I have a right to carry; the courts do not agree. But I am absolutely positive that my right does not come from or have anything to do with the 2nd amendment.

There is nothing wrong with having a passion for something whether you understand it or not as long as you do no harm. There are all kinds of 2nd amendment groups that you can join and be active in. The only possible end to the 2nd amendment argument will be when the SCOTUS rules on whether or not the 2nd is an individual right. I am sure in my own mind what that ruling will be.

By what authority does the government restrict the wearing of arms? Brute force.

By the same authority that they use to arrest drunk drivers, armed robbers and wife beaters. You do not get to pick and choose the laws that you obey.

Threatening or implying that you would use force against anyone (up to an including Police Officers) that you perceive of violating a right that you do not have makes us all look like idiots. Most citizens reading what you have posted would hold you up as an example of the next VT shooter and call for stiffer gun laws.

[molonlabetn]

....By the same authority that they use to arrest drunk drivers, armed robbers and wife beaters. You do not get to pick and choose the laws that you obey.

And all I'm saying is that Government/LE should not be given a free-pass to pick and choose which laws they enforce... The 2nd Amendement being the first law on the subject.

Threatening or implying that you would use force against anyone (up to an including Police Officers) that you perceive of violating a right that you do not have makes us all look like idiots. Most citizens reading what you have posted would hold you up as an example of the next VT shooter and call for stiffer gun laws.

That's a real debate winner there

[Guest Hyaloid]

I think we probably need to take a breather here... personal insults don't solve anything.

For the time being, I guess we'll just agree to disagree, no need to eat our own.

[Marswolf]

Most of us want the carry of firearms to become commonplace in society.

I think this is really the crux of the matter. Apart from the guys who think it's somehow macho to carry a handgun open (and I think there are unfortunately a pile of those folks), the reason I normally hear for OC is that it is going to somehow get the public used to seeing guns and think of them favorably. I've thought that myself in the past but upon more reasoned consideration have changed my mind. I'm afraid the days of commonplace carry are past in terms of being able to legally protect ourselves, and I now think OC is highly counterproductive.

My heart wishes firearm carry would become commonplace again, but my head tells me that isn't ever going to happen. Fervent and sincere wishing won't make it come true. Even in the "Wild West", towns quickly began enforcing no-carry rules. Realistically, the idea of massive citizen self-protection by carrying firearms isn't going to happen. It just isn't. We just need to get over it and do what is best for us to individually protect ourselves.

I'm guessing that for every person that sees the public packing openly and thinks well of it, there are 50 people who will see that event as discomforting and threatening.

I strongly suspect that purposeful open carry will eventually lead to Tennessee banning open carry. If I'm right, OCing is exactly the wrong thing to do. But my posting here isn't going to make everyone suddenly become rational. I think in a few years, because of the actions we are discussing, Tennessee will ban open carry.

The only reason we have a permit to OC in Tennessee is because of a handful of LE guys who didn't like citizen carry and tried to kill it in their community by their own authority. Their arrogance won us open carry and "shall issue" by state rather than local authorities. I'm afraid that the actions of those who insist on open carry will lose that for us and leave us again vulnerable to arrest for inadvertent open carry. That was why the law was changed - so the permitted public could not be harassed and arrested by unfriendly LEOs who decided that you were not carrying with sufficient concealment. I'm afraid those days will return in the not too distant future.