People Getting Stretched to Limit. Credit Card Balances Soar.

[btq96r]

1 hour ago, LangdoniousRex said:

Both of you homed in on "minimum wage" but completely ignored the "increasing" part. Federal minimum wage has been $7.25/hr for 15 years and that seems adequate to prevent "slave" labor. Prior to that, there have been very safe incremental increases over time that had no significant effect on the economy at large as the market tends to self-correct. All's well there.

The minimum wage should be indexed to something, not subject to the complete political whims of Congress and the President like any other legislation.  And again, it was always intended to be a liveable wage, certainly in conjunction with some federal programs for additional assistance.

The poverty guidelines work as useful as anything else.  For a single person, that's $15,060, or $7.24 when you divide it by 2,080 hours (52wks x 40hrs).  For a family of four, that classic nuclear family with Mother, Father, two kids to at least continue a replacement population level (because Social Security and Medicare), that amount along the same math is $15 if only one parent is working.  I'm led to believe this is when America was Great which some are trying to Make Again.

It would be nice to know how many jobs are in that $7.25-$15 range so the economic impact could actually be gauged to promopt a decision, not just be too wide a canyon as to suggest we'd be Evel Knievel'ing it to try and cross.

 

1 hour ago, LangdoniousRex said:

That's what they want you to think. It's nowhere near as advanced as it's presented to the general public. Also, it's not AI, it's really fast machine learning. 

I'm with you that it's not really AI in the way we defined that before it became a word every company trying to buy and sell it wants in their quarterly earnings call transcript.   But it's going to be a disruptor sooner rather than later.

[LangdoniousRex]

11 minutes ago, btq96r said:

The minimum wage should be indexed to something, not subject to the complete political whims of Congress and the President like any other legislation.  And again, it was always intended to be a liveable wage, certainly in conjunction with some federal programs for additional assistance.

The poverty guidelines work as useful as anything else.  For a single person, that's $15,060, or $7.24 when you divide it by 2,080 hours (52wks x 40hrs).  For a family of four, that classic nuclear family with Mother, Father, two kids to at least continue a replacement population level (because Social Security and Medicare), that amount along the same math is $15 if only one parent is working.  I'm led to believe this is when America was Great which some are trying to Make Again.

It would be nice to know how many jobs are in that $7.25-$15 range so the economic impact could actually be gauged to promopt a decision, not just be too wide a canyon as to suggest we'd be Evel Knievel'ing it to try and cross.

 

I'm with you that it's not really AI in the way we defined that before it became a word every company trying to buy and sell it wants in their quarterly earnings call transcript.   But it's going to be a disruptor sooner rather than later.

The world has changed a lot since the 1950s. That world no longer exists and while people continue to cling to the past, it's exactly that; in the past. The US population has more than doubled since then so there will naturally more competition just by headcount alone. 

All of this comes back to minimum wage for minimum skill. Despite what a lot of people say, this is still the land of opportunity. Ask any first generation legal immigrant. When they started, they'd take any job, likely minimum wage or less, but many of them took any opportunity to improve their situation financially. They never been worried about minimum wage because they are focused on working upwards, not sitting on their asses begging for the government to force their employer to give them a raise. 

AI is only disrupting these minimum wage jobs for the near term. Between that and the kiosks setup for video conferencing overseas outsourced labor, that $15/hr isn't all helpful when you've priced yourself out of the market and out of a job.

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, LangdoniousRex said:

That's what they want you to think. It's nowhere near as advanced as it's presented to the general public. Also, it's not AI, it's really fast machine learning. 

I feel like the people that want to complain about low skill workers making slightly above poverty line have no right to complain about having to scan their own groceries. Or order through a kiosk at McDonald’s. I hate bagging my own groceries.  Wish they’d pay someone a living wage to save me my time. But it’s a free market! I’m certainly welcome to not shop at Walmart and pay 40% more at my local gas station for necessities so I can have a human wait on me. The owner. Or the people he’s employed for years and treats well. It’s certainly not because no one wants to work. It’s that everyone gets riled up because they see “starting pay $16-22 an hour”.

They‘ work you 20-24 hours a week to ensure you get no outside shot of Bennie’s. They will ensure you have no say in a set schedule in a lot of cases, making part time work not an option to stay afloat, especially when you introduce kids.

It’s not AI in the sense everyone thinks of… But that low rent burger flipper will be replaced with a servo and automated through plcs in under five years. Automation is phasing out everything left and right. Quickly. That’s why I went to school for mechatronics. I worked nights on top of full time schooling five days a week for over two years, if I had a kid there’s zero chance I could have done that. I’m fortunate every day I don’t have kids in this economy right now, because that nuclear family ain’t surviving off of $60k rent w this housing market. 
 

They already have robots that will run food to tables in restaurants. There’s supermarkets that have robots that scan for out of stock items and monitor spills. I’ve seen the food runner and robot over three years ago. Granted  they suck. But it’s already here. Just maybe not in rural America. 
 

Friends brother is a social worker. Everyone knows they’re underpaid. He works nights a few hours a day at a liquor store for $9 an hour because he got into a fender bender and needed a job quick. That’s in Antioch. Customers son is a CNA. He capped out at $17 an hour and moved to South Carolina because he couldn’t live in Nashville off that wage.With two roommates, one being his single mother.
 

 I dunno, I’m not going to be needing a CNA soon hopefully. But it’s time they get paid a living wage, that’s a field that’s growing and it’s not going to be a need for my generation in the short term. I do believe by the time I need one the older generation will have stopped complaining about someone being paid good money to clean them up and roll them for bedsores. As much as the younger generation can be a pain in the ass they’re going to be a driving force in the change for people making a living wage. 
 

(Also Rex was just quoting the thread, certainly not a shot, just commenting. I agree that the tech now is still weak). 
 

 

[LangdoniousRex]

15 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I feel like the people that want to complain about low skill workers making slightly above poverty line have no right to complain about having to scan their own groceries. Or order through a kiosk at McDonald’s. I hate bagging my own groceries.  Wish they’d pay someone a living wage to save me my time. But it’s a free market! I’m certainly welcome to not shop at Walmart and pay 40% more at my local gas station for necessities so I can have a human wait on me. The owner. Or the people he’s employed for years and treats well. It’s certainly not because no one wants to work. It’s that everyone gets riled up because they see “starting pay $16-22 an hour”.

They‘ work you 20-24 hours a week to ensure you get no outside shot of Bennie’s. They will ensure you have no say in a set schedule in a lot of cases, making part time work not an option to stay afloat, especially when you introduce kids.

It’s not AI in the sense everyone thinks of… But that low rent burger flipper will be replaced with a servo and automated through plcs in under five years. Automation is phasing out everything left and right. Quickly. That’s why I went to school for mechatronics. I worked nights on top of full time schooling five days a week for over two years, if I had a kid there’s zero chance I could have done that. I’m fortunate every day I don’t have kids in this economy right now, because that nuclear family ain’t surviving off of $60k rent w this housing market. 
 

They already have robots that will run food to tables in restaurants. There’s supermarkets that have robots that scan for out of stock items and monitor spills. I’ve seen the food runner and robot over three years ago. Granted  they suck. But it’s already here. Just maybe not in rural America. 
 

Friends brother is a social worker. Everyone knows they’re underpaid. He works nights a few hours a day at a liquor store for $9 an hour because he got into a fender bender and needed a job quick. That’s in Antioch. Customers son is a CNA. He capped out at $17 an hour and moved to South Carolina because he couldn’t live in Nashville off that wage.With two roommates, one being his single mother.
 

 I dunno, I’m not going to be needing a CNA soon hopefully. But it’s time they get paid a living wage, that’s a field that’s growing and it’s not going to be a need for my generation in the short term. I do believe by the time I need one the older generation will have stopped complaining about someone being paid good money to clean them up and roll them for bedsores. As much as the younger generation can be a pain in the ass they’re going to be a driving force in the change for people making a living wage. 
 

(Also Rex was just quoting the thread, certainly not a shot, just commenting. I agree that the tech now is still weak). 
 

 

The complainers complain perpetually. Those with the loudest voices have little to say, anyways. 

Social worker and CNA are both skilled jobs and should be commensurate to their skill and training and its painfully unfortunate that they aren't. People tend to have the idea that raising the minimum wage automatically implies that all jobs get a bump in the process, which is wholly inaccurate. In reality, it makes it harder on skilled laborers making just above minimum to 2x minimum wage as those costs always get passed onto the consumer. Effectively the lower skilled are pulling the moderately skilled down closer to their level which breeds more discontent for the system in general.

Generation agnostic, those that employ a combination of working harder and smarter will get compensated appropriately. The rest can cry about how unfair the world is on social media and feed each other copium in the meantime.

[BigK]

9 hours ago, btq96r said:

The counter to that is, so many of those execs and managers couldn't come close to doing what the workers do.  In some industries that require licensing, you see very few people from the rank and file rise in management.  When you get to that point, you have two sets of people who can be easily replaced. 

I don't agree that the 2 sets are equally easy to replace. It's way easier to replace a welder, janitor, line cook or bus driver than it is to replace a mid-to-upper level manager/director, let alone a CEO. To me that holds more weight than whether or not a CEO can run a lathe or install a water heater.

8 hours ago, deerslayer said:

The more basic the work, the more this is true.  Also, half the people who do the work wouldn't do anything if there was no boss around.  

In theory, I like the idea of getting workers of all stripes motivated to make the organization prosper and share in some of that success.  Keep in mind, however, that the management/worker ratio is probably 10:1 or even 100:1 in some places.  The sheer number of workers may make such a plan that was actually meaningful financially difficult.  

True on so many levels. The CEO is like a general, he could have 50K soldiers depending on him for their lives. If he screws up the all die. Sad but true...if he loses one foot soldier or even a tank commander, the war goes on.

[Capbyrd]

On 5/27/2024 at 11:32 AM, BigK said:

However, anyone who thinks they should be able to afford a car note, groceries, cell phone bills, and rent when that's all you bring to the table is destined to learn hard life lessons.

Car notes and cell phone bills are luxuries and people should be reminded of that. 

Edited May 29 by Capbyrd

[BigK]

8 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

Car notes and cell phone bills are luxuries and people should be reminded of that. 

I agree completely.

I feel like too many of the people complaining today think if their multiple streaming services, $1200 cell phone with unlimited data, car notes, Door Dash or eating out, cigarettes, and beer are necessities and/or entitlements. 

[LangdoniousRex]

2 hours ago, BigK said:

I agree completely.

I feel like too many of the people complaining today think if their multiple streaming services, $1200 cell phone with unlimited data, car notes, Door Dash or eating out, cigarettes, and beer are necessities and/or entitlements. 

There is a millennial version of Dave Ramsey that does financial audits of mostly Gen Zers. It is absolutely wild to see the genuine sense of entitlement and/or general disconnect from the consequences of poor financial decisions along with pure denial of the obscene hole they've dug themselves into. 

I'm not promoting the guy by any means but if you listen to a couple of episodes and filter out the manufactured drama, they give you a real insight into the headspace of an average young adult these days.

Millennial Dave Ramsey

 

 

[gregintenn]

Why is it so many folks seek out a job in a low paying field, and then bitch they aren’t paid enough. I remember being sick of hearing teachers bitch about not making enough money when I was in school. You know how I solved that? I didn’t become a teacher.

Today, there are many jobs where a person with no college education can make 100k a year in no time.

[BigK]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

Why is it so many folks seek out a job in a low paying field, and then bitch they aren’t paid enough. I remember being sick of hearing teachers bitch about not making enough money when I was in school. You know how I solved that? I didn’t become a teacher.

Today, there are many jobs where a person with no college education can make 100k a year in no time.

You and I see eye-to-eye on this one. A really good friend constantly whines about having to Door Dash or deliver for Amazon to make ends meet because he can't live on his teaching salary. He gets furious when I remind him we discussed how bad the pay will be before his first education class at MTSU. I get it, he thinks it's his calling, but I don't think it's fair to whine about an outcome you were guaranteed would happen when you signed up. He could do so much better as smart as he is.

[gregintenn]

9 minutes ago, BigK said:

You and I see eye-to-eye on this one. A really good friend constantly whines about having to Door Dash or deliver for Amazon to make ends meet because he can't live on his teaching salary. He gets furious when I remind him we discussed how bad the pay will be before his first education class at MTSU. I get it, he thinks it's his calling, but I don't think it's fair to whine about an outcome you were guaranteed would happen when you signed up. He could do so much better as smart as he is.

I could have made a lot more money than i did, but I opted for a job that interested me and also provided a pension. Some things are more important than money....at least to some people. I did try not to complain about my salary. I agreed to it going in.

[Tom B]

25 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I could have made a lot more money than i did, but I opted for a job that interested me and also provided a pension. Some things are more important than money....at least to some people. I did try not to complain about my salary. I agreed to it going in.

This is me exactly. I got on a fire dept in CT late in life at age 31, but since I had several jobs before that that I hated, having a job that I enjoyed made me happy. If you've ever had a job you hated, it affects you even when you are not at work.

[LangdoniousRex]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Why is it so many folks seek out a job in a low paying field, and then bitch they aren’t paid enough. I remember being sick of hearing teachers bitch about not making enough money when I was in school. You know how I solved that? I didn’t become a teacher.

Today, there are many jobs where a person with no college education can make 100k a year in no time.

Those folks believe they are entitled to a better outcome just because and when that imaginary outcome doesn't materialize in real life, they cry about it because they've got no other strategy. 

"in no time" is pretty vague and doesn't manage expectations that well. Many people will read that believe they can go from zero to making six figures in a few months then get upset when it doesn't happen. Yes there are six figure jobs out there that don't require a college education, tech is a great example, but the above average person with above average motivation, it'll still take years to get there if you are just starting out.

Equipped with a GED, it took me 20 years in the field to make six figures consistently, many of those years were focused on skill building and experience on the job and less focused on money. 

[Johnny Rotten]

2 hours ago, Tom B said:

 If you've ever had a job you hated, it affects you even when you are not at work.

Preach it brother, manufacturing sucks ass and being a production manager and dealing with gen x,y,z and m's is challenging.....

[AuEagle]

[Garufa]

38 minutes ago, Johnny Rotten said:

Preach it brother, manufacturing sucks ass and being a production manager and dealing with gen x,y,z and m's is challenging.....

Suck it boomer.  

[Johnny Rotten]

18 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Suck it boomer.  

GD right

 

[LangdoniousRex]

1 hour ago, Johnny Rotten said:

GD right

 

 

[btq96r]

Mortgage lenders are getting desperate to close deals. 

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240516437694/en/UWM-Announces-0-Down-Purchase-Program

They'll say this is different because NINJA loans aren't in play, and ARMs aren't carrying the load...but it's still not a great idea.  The concept that housing should be some protected market that isn't susceptible to corrections and crashes when things get bad is a wrong one.

One of the things that made the Great Recession happen through the housing market was a lack of skin in the game when it came to mortgages.  It's a lot easier to walk away from a home you didn't put anything down on, and your mortgage was in effect an approximation of rent in terms of financial burden.  Having money you had to save, and at risk in the event of default...well, then you're much more apt to cut back on luxuries, get a side gig, and other things to keep from losing the asset and all that invested money in foreclosure.

[gregintenn]

5 minutes ago, btq96r said:

Mortgage lenders are getting desperate to close deals. 

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240516437694/en/UWM-Announces-0-Down-Purchase-Program

They'll say this is different because NINJA loans aren't in play, and ARMs aren't carrying the load...but it's still not a great idea.  The concept that housing should be some protected market that isn't susceptible to corrections and crashes when things get bad is a wrong one.

One of the things that made the Great Recession happen through the housing market was a lack of skin in the game when it came to mortgages.  It's a lot easier to walk away from a home you didn't put anything down on, and your mortgage was in effect an approximation of rent in terms of financial burden.  Having money you had to save, and at risk in the event of default...well, then you're much more apt to cut back on luxuries, get a side gig, and other things to keep from losing the asset and all that invested money in foreclosure.

Sounds like a disaster to me. I fell like we've seen this movie before.

[btq96r]

4 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Sounds like a disaster to me. I fell like we've seen this movie before.

We did.  It was informative, well acted, and entertaining.

[gregintenn]

13 minutes ago, btq96r said:

We did.  It was informative, well acted, and entertaining.

Yep! That’s the one. Fabulous flick except for the fact it was true.

[LangdoniousRex]

54 minutes ago, btq96r said:

Mortgage lenders are getting desperate to close deals. 

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240516437694/en/UWM-Announces-0-Down-Purchase-Program

They'll say this is different because NINJA loans aren't in play, and ARMs aren't carrying the load...but it's still not a great idea.  The concept that housing should be some protected market that isn't susceptible to corrections and crashes when things get bad is a wrong one.

One of the things that made the Great Recession happen through the housing market was a lack of skin in the game when it came to mortgages.  It's a lot easier to walk away from a home you didn't put anything down on, and your mortgage was in effect an approximation of rent in terms of financial burden.  Having money you had to save, and at risk in the event of default...well, then you're much more apt to cut back on luxuries, get a side gig, and other things to keep from losing the asset and all that invested money in foreclosure.

This is a knee jerk reaction to the stagflation we are experiencing currently. Home prices in combination with ~7% interest make them unaffordable for many, even with this zero down assistance program. Average home price is roughly $360k, making the PITI monthly payment in the ballpark of $3000/month. The average household can't afford that even with this assistance program.

This program from UWM is mimicking the program FHA currently has. Many states are desperate to get back some of the real estate tax revenue they've been losing so, like they always do, they've concocted another scheme to attempt to stop the hemorrhaging but it's too little too late. Besides the loss of the tax revenue, the mortgage industry is falling since homes aren't selling and many purchases that are still happening these days are all cash.

The housing market is in for some significant turbulence and everyone that still has a few brain cells to rub together can see the writing on the wall. The harder realtors lie and the more data that is outright manipulated is proof enough they are scared to death of the impending doom.

Edited May 30 by LangdoniousRex

[Defender]

Just wondering who is getting paid minimum wage these days?  Every entry level job I see advertised is for close to 20 bucks an hour.  Well, at least in the greater Nashville area anyway.

Edited May 30 by Defender
Spelling error

[Johnny Rotten]

Just now, Defender said:

Just wondering who is getting paid minimum wage these days?  Every entry level job I see advertised is for close to 20 bucks an hour.  Well, at least in the greater Nashville area anyway.

Simple no one. 

I'm in manufacturing, no experience needed we'll/I'll train you, what that gets you is someone with a pulse, pretty much no common sense or clueless about quality of what they do.  The owner kept bumping the pay by a buck and hr to what I feel is fair for the area we are in, still get chit, rolls out a incentive program for perfect attendance $50 a week on top of your pay (free $1.25hr pay bump) and they can't even do that...

We are Doomed