Gun Show Loophole

[19_A_CPT]

Biden to close ‘gun-show loophole’ and expand background checks for firearms (yahoo.com)

Dems are trying to make it illegal to sell guns not only at gunshows and flea markets without a license but the verbage seems like it would be illegal to sell on sites such as this one too?!

[Gunlove5656]

im confused how hes allowed to do this .

A PRESIDENT CAN . . .

make treaties with the approval of the Senate.

veto bills and sign bills.

represent our nation in talks with foreign countries.

enforce the laws that Congress passes.

act as Commander-in-Chief during a war.

call out troops to protect our nation against an attack.

make suggestions about things that should be new laws.

lead his political party.

entertain foreign guests.

recognize foreign countries.

grant pardons.

nominate Cabinet members and Supreme Court Justices and other high officials.

appoint ambassadors.

talk directly to the people about problems.

represent the best interest of all the people

A PRESIDENT CANNOT . . .

make laws.

declare war.

decide how federal money will be spent.

interpret laws.

choose Cabinet members or Supreme Court Justices without Senate approval.

[AuEagle]

BREAKING: Biden Regime Approves Expansion of Background Checks for Gun Shows and Online Firearm Sales (VIDEO) | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hᴏft

[Tom B]

Along these lines, I'm wondering if anyone else on here has gotten an email from the ATF in response to any 'for sale' ads?

I have an ad for a gun in the 'E-Classfieds', an Eastman buy/sell/trade site here in E TN. Been trying to sell it for a awhile and every few weeks I put the ad back up for a few days.

Got an email from a Hank Schrader of the ATF telling me of the penalties for selling guns without a license etc.

I'm wondering if someone sees my ads and thinks they are for all different guns?

I responded to the email, and they told me to contact my local office. Its in Greeneville, but I havent tried calling them yet.

I'm assuming they arent singling me out since I dont sell that many guns-lol. I see plenty of the same names on the 'for sale' sites all the time, those folks are selling a lot more guns than me.

[Garufa]

15 minutes ago, Tom B said:

Got an email from a Hank Schrader of the ATF telling me of the penalties for selling guns without a license etc.

Hank Schrader was Walter White's DEA agent brother-in-law in Breaking Bad.  I think someone is yanking your chain.

[19_A_CPT]

5 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Hank Schrader was Walter White's DEA agent brother-in-law in Breaking Bad.  I think someone is yanking your chain.

Gonna be business as usual for me on here. I don't buy/sell many but F#$* Em! This is America!

 

[Tom B]

47 minutes ago, Garufa said:

Hank Schrader was Walter White's DEA agent brother-in-law in Breaking Bad.  I think someone is yanking your chain.

And its not even April 1st anymore-lol. Well if its a prank, they used the ATF email NFA@atf.gov and phone # that seem correct.

[Gunlove5656]

So does this have a major effect in a little confused

[gary_boom]

Probably will work about as good as prohibition on alcohol did.

[papa61]

president and ATF can't enact or change the law. you would think the congressional yank on ATFs chain would deter this type of crap.  Just another example of the fascist over-reach of the current admin.

[Gunlove5656]

1 minute ago, papa61 said:

president and ATF can't enact or change the law. you would think the congressional yank on ATFs chain would deter this type of crap.  Just another example of the fascist over-reach of the current admin.

That’s what I thought I don’t understand how this slides

[10-Ring]

I haven't dove deep into this (yet anyway) but from what I have seen so far it seems to me that this won't change much of anything. 

"Attorney General Merrick Garland said: "If you sell guns predominantly to earn a profit, you must be licensed."

From what I previously know of the ATF regs on this issue, the ATF has the ability to decide if someone is selling firearms for profit and there is no magic number of sales that must be made for them to declare that the individual is selling for profit. 

Technically, a guy who finds a smoking deal can't legally (per ATF)  buy a gun with the intention to resell and earn a profit. That would be a violation. However, I wholeheartedly believe that while buying a single gun with the intent of turning a profit may violate ATF policy, a guy selling 50 guns out of a collection does not. But that's just my perception. 

As always, anything the ATF does, I don't support, and I wish they would go the way of yesterday's lunch. 

 

[JohnSutton1980]

The power to do this was given to FJB when congress passed the “safer communities act”. Which had support from several GOP members. They apparently didn’t read the bill is what I’m sure they will claim come election time.  So no pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes here. It was a law that was passed in congress. I don’t agree at all with it but it basically expanded the definition of “making a living or for profit” in the gun dealers definition. The GOP fell for the trick and now virtually every gun sale with be considered sold by the new definition “gun dealer”. Which means you must have a BG check, pay sales tax, etc. just like buying one from a gun shop. Supposed to go in effect in a month from tomorrow. Unless the GOA, FPC, or others get an injunction. This is why no one trust any government official. Both the lefties and the GOP. All are FN rotten and they don’t take their OATH’S very serious and are easily manipulated. Welcome to the last years of democracy. Although I personally believe true founders democracy died long ago. I don’t think we will sell anything on here when this goes into effect. The owners of this forum won’t risk jail so we have a site the buy, sale, trade, discuss, learn, socialize, etc. 

[papa61]

6 minutes ago, 10-Ring said:

I haven't dove deep into this (yet anyway) but from what I have seen so far it seems to me that this won't change much of anything. 

"Attorney General Merrick Garland said: "If you sell guns predominantly to earn a profit, you must be licensed."

From what I previously know of the ATF regs on this issue, the ATF has the ability to decide if someone is selling firearms for profit and there is no magic number of sales that must be made for them to declare that the individual is selling for profit. 

Technically, a guy who finds a smoking deal can't legally (per ATF)  buy a gun with the intention to resell and earn a profit. That would be a violation. However, I wholeheartedly believe that while buying a single gun with the intent of turning a profit may violate ATF policy, a guy selling 50 guns out of a collection does not. But that's just my perception. 

As always, anything the ATF does, I don't support, and I wish they would go the way of yesterday's lunch. 

 

problem being burden of proof. And cost of defense. Also of note should be Fed control over intrastate commerce.

[papa61]

9 minutes ago, JohnSutton1980 said:

The power to do this was given to FJB when congress passed the “safer communities act”. Which had support from several GOP members. They apparently didn’t read the bill is what I’m sure they will claim come election time.  So no pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes here. It was a law that was passed in congress. I don’t agree at all with it but it basically expanded the definition of “making a living or for profit” in the gun dealers definition. The GOP fell for the trick and now virtually every gun sale with be considered sold by the new definition “gun dealer”. Which means you must have a BG check, pay sales tax, etc. just like buying one from a gun shop. Supposed to go in effect in a month from tomorrow. Unless the GOA, FPC, or others get an injunction. This is why no one trust any government official. Both the lefties and the GOP. All are FN rotten and they don’t take their OATH’S very serious and are easily manipulated. Welcome to the last years of democracy. Although I personally believe true founders democracy died long ago. I don’t think we will sell anything on here when this goes into effect. The owners of this forum won’t risk jail so we have a site the buy, sale, trade, discuss, learn, socialize, etc. 

just another example of what happens to gun owners when we "compromise"

[JohnSutton1980]

43 minutes ago, papa61 said:

just another example of what happens to gun owners when we "compromise"

That’s a fact!! I don’t know when the GOP will realize that you CANNOT compromise on rights given by the creator! Not a FN inch.

[Sunfish]

The word profit is subjective as everything seems to increase except the value of a dollar

[10-Ring]

11 hours ago, papa61 said:

problem being burden of proof. And cost of defense. Also of note should be Fed control over intrastate commerce.

And this is where the ATF will play pigeon chess. (If you don't know what pigeon chess is, pigeon chess is playing chess with a pigeon. Even if you beat the pigeon at chess, he's going to $#!t all over the board and tell everyone else he won).

I expect that they will try to make examples out of a few (otherwise) law abiding citizens. A savvy defendant won't be able to recall exactly what he paid for it and know whether or not he is actually making a profit due to inflation and whatnot . But I'm the process is going to spend so much money in legal fees to clear his name that he will never to a private transaction again. 

The silver lining here is that it gives gun guys the ability to say "sorry honey, I just can't sell any guns, it's too risky."

Edited April 12 by 10-Ring

[AuEagle]

Justice Department Announces Rule Ending Private Firearm Sales At Gun Shows, Tightening Licensing Requirements | Second Amendment | The Texan

[papa61]

It's like mudslinging, trow everything you can and see what sticks. They have to know this will go through the court system like a runaway freight train.
where is the line between a hobby and a business? Anyone can make a "profit" but can you sustain it and actually make a living at it. 

[10-Ring]

ATF's definition of "engaged in the business"

 ATF Changes Definition of “Engaged in the Business”

Written by Ricky Zyvoloski

|

April 15, 2024

|

0 comments

 

The final version of ATF Rule 2022R-17 has been submitted to the Federal Register and will go into effect 30 days after the date of publication. The Final Rule broadens the definition of who is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms and finalizes many amendments to regulatory definitions.

A person will be considered to be “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms, when that person:

1. 1. Resells or offers for resale firearms, and also represents to potential buyers or otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to purchase and resell additional firearms (i.e., to be a source of additional firearms for resale)”
   2. Repetitively purchases for the purpose of resale, or repetitively resells or offers for resale, firearms—

(i) Through straw or sham businesses, or individual straw purchasers or sellers; or (ii) That cannot lawfully be purchased, received, or possessed under Federal, State, local, or Tribal law…

1. 3. Repetitively sells or offers for resale firearms

(i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or

(ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are 

(A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or

(B) The same make and model, or variants thereof

1. 4. As a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee), resells or offers for resale to a person . . . firearms that were in the business inventory of the former licensee at the time the license was terminated…

and

1. 5. As a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee), resells or offers for resale firearms that were transferred to the licensee’s personal collection…”

The Rule finalizes the amendment to the regulatory definition of “Dealer” to clarify that firearms dealing may occur wherever, or through whatever medium, qualifying domestic or international activities are conducted.

The Rule also “finalizes an amendment to the regulatory definition of “engaged in the business” to define the terms “purchase” and “sale” as they apply to dealers to include any method of payment or medium of exchange for a firearm, including services or illicit forms of payment (e.g., controlled substances).  “Resale” is defined to mean “selling a firearm, including a stolen firearm, after it was previously sold by the original manufacturer or any other person.””

Providing services is considered a medium of exchange, so the ATF has codified their “historical exclusion for auctioneers who provide only auction services on commission to assist in liquidating firearms at an “estate-type” auction.”

The ruling states that a “licensee transferring a firearm to another licensee, must do so by following the verification and recordkeeping procedures in the regulations, rather than by using a Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473.”

“The final rule recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license.”  Without an FFL, an individual must ensure they are not “engaged in the business” and the transaction is not “to predominantly earn a profit”, which now focuses only on whether the intent of the underlying sale or disposition of the firearms is predominantly of the obtaining pecuniary gain. Individuals may continue to engage in private intrastate sales, without a license, provided the individuals are not “engaged in the business” and the transaction is otherwise compliance with the law.

Edited April 15 by 10-Ring

[papa61]

3 hours ago, 10-Ring said:

ATF's definition of "engaged in the business"

 ATF Changes Definition of “Engaged in the Business”

Written by Ricky Zyvoloski

|

April 15, 2024

|

0 comments

 

The final version of ATF Rule 2022R-17 has been submitted to the Federal Register and will go into effect 30 days after the date of publication. The Final Rule broadens the definition of who is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms and finalizes many amendments to regulatory definitions.

A person will be considered to be “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms, when that person:

1. 1. Resells or offers for resale firearms, and also represents to potential buyers or otherwise demonstrates a willingness and ability to purchase and resell additional firearms (i.e., to be a source of additional firearms for resale)”
   2. Repetitively purchases for the purpose of resale, or repetitively resells or offers for resale, firearms—

(i) Through straw or sham businesses, or individual straw purchasers or sellers; or (ii) That cannot lawfully be purchased, received, or possessed under Federal, State, local, or Tribal law…

1. 3. Repetitively sells or offers for resale firearms

(i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or

(ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are 

(A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or

(B) The same make and model, or variants thereof

1. 4. As a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee), resells or offers for resale to a person . . . firearms that were in the business inventory of the former licensee at the time the license was terminated…

and

1. 5. As a former licensee (or responsible person acting on behalf of the former licensee), resells or offers for resale firearms that were transferred to the licensee’s personal collection…”

The Rule finalizes the amendment to the regulatory definition of “Dealer” to clarify that firearms dealing may occur wherever, or through whatever medium, qualifying domestic or international activities are conducted.

The Rule also “finalizes an amendment to the regulatory definition of “engaged in the business” to define the terms “purchase” and “sale” as they apply to dealers to include any method of payment or medium of exchange for a firearm, including services or illicit forms of payment (e.g., controlled substances).  “Resale” is defined to mean “selling a firearm, including a stolen firearm, after it was previously sold by the original manufacturer or any other person.””

Providing services is considered a medium of exchange, so the ATF has codified their “historical exclusion for auctioneers who provide only auction services on commission to assist in liquidating firearms at an “estate-type” auction.”

The ruling states that a “licensee transferring a firearm to another licensee, must do so by following the verification and recordkeeping procedures in the regulations, rather than by using a Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473.”

“The final rule recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license.”  Without an FFL, an individual must ensure they are not “engaged in the business” and the transaction is not “to predominantly earn a profit”, which now focuses only on whether the intent of the underlying sale or disposition of the firearms is predominantly of the obtaining pecuniary gain. Individuals may continue to engage in private intrastate sales, without a license, provided the individuals are not “engaged in the business” and the transaction is otherwise compliance with the law.

well that's not as bad as I expected. Bad, just not as bad as expected.

[btq96r]

Gun owners pretending they weren't in business are the ones who brought this down.  As long as the background check system isn't a bogged down mess, I don't see this going away.  As @JohnSutton1980explained pretty well, Congress ceded this authority to the executive branch...they had fundraising to attend to, I'm sure.  Better to have something you pretend to care about when asking folks for money.

[Spots]

4 hours ago, btq96r said:

Gun owners pretending they weren't in business are the ones who brought this down.  As long as the background check system isn't a bogged down mess, I don't see this going away.  As @JohnSutton1980explained pretty well, Congress ceded this authority to the executive branch...they had fundraising to attend to, I'm sure.  Better to have something you pretend to care about when asking folks for money.

I hate to say it because I despise the ATF and think they should be abolished, but you're not wrong. You see them at every gun show, guy has 6 tables full of guns, lots of NIB and never been fired stuff and a big sign telling the world that he isnt doing background checks. Lots of reporters and anti gun activists at the gunshows just looking for their next blog post

[JohnSutton1980]

I don’t personally go to gun shows. It’s been at least 12-15 years since I have been. Now from what I hear, it’s mostly guys who are charging moon bucks for dirt road stuff, or ATF agents. Gun Shows in general have lost their “luster” or appeal for me. The issue I have with the latest infringement is the wide variable interpretation of “earning a profit”. I’ve had friends with ads on other sites that have received emails from ATF explaining their definition change. Basically a threatening email. 
This will be the new normal. It will only get worse with another FJB term. Still worse but at a slower rate if Trump gets another term. I for one am sick of old rich people making decisions that affect normal working people.