Crumbley Verdict

[OLDNEWBIE]

All I'm getting from news is how this is a unique case. Involuntary manslaughter. No real details on how parents assisted, knew etc.

I'm guessing the parents were excessively negligent but this seems to open the doors for prosecuting every parent of every school shooter. 

Will it carry over to gang shooters  parents too?

Thoughts and details of this case appreciated. 

[DHF]

Sorry, what case are you referring to?

[OLDNEWBIE]

3 minutes ago, DHF said:

Sorry, what case are you referring to?

James Crumbley parent of School shooter in Michigan. Convicted yesterday I believe, his wife also. I've just heard about it myself but it seems to be a landmark case. Having trouble getting timeline facts unless I watch hours of trial. News is skimming over details of how parents were guilty. 

[DHF]

Oops. I read "Crumbley" in the title as crumbly like a cake. 

I haven't followed this case closely but I worry that this will set a bad precedent for future prosecution.  I agree that from what I have seen there was at least a decent amount of negligence on the parents' part but I don't have enough info on what they "ignored" to make a call on their actions or lack there of.  You make a great point with what about the parents of gang members.

[OLDNEWBIE]

9 minutes ago, DHF said:

Oops. I read "Crumbley" in the title as crumbly like a cake. 

I haven't followed this case closely but I worry that this will set a bad precedent for future prosecution.  I agree that from what I have seen there was at least a decent amount of negligence on the parents' part but I don't have enough info on what they "ignored" to make a call on their actions or lack there of.  You make a great point with what about the parents of gang members.

Selective prosecution will be in force no doubt but expect every school shooters parent to be scrutinized for liability going foward. Crumbley case unique or not will be a blueprint for future cases.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Got the timeline info I wanted from an old article.Here's the short of it.

(sorry if posted in wrong section)

No mention of Kid having previous mental or social issues but old article btw. (perhaps he did?)

Parents buy kid handgun and Mom posts social media pics of kid with new gun.

Teacher catches kid looking up ammo on his phone, was shocked and parents were notified. Mom texted son something to kid like, not mad just don't get caught next time.

Day of shooting kid draws disturbing pic with disturbing perhaps suicidal words. Gun, blood, dead victim etc. Parents called to school about pic.

Parents left kid in school and his backpack was never checked. Odd of parents and of School IMO as kid was known to be looking at ammo so they knew he used guns or was interested in them. (nothing weird there but the drawing was disturbing)

Negligent for sure not checking backpack after weird pic by both parents and school but this verdict sets a pecident for any minor sloppy parenting skills or missed signals that your child could do this and you own a gun 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/michigan-school-shooting-parents-charged

[Hozzie]

I’m ok with it.  Parents need to be held accountable.  As mentioned it will be selective prosecution, but parents need to take more responsibility.  

[expendable]

I agree parents should be more responsible, but this opens up parents to more liability than just gun related crime. 

Your son or daughter is doing drugs with someone that overdoses or drinks and drives and kills someone you could be charged with manslaughter 

 

 

[Grayfox54]

Any time a new court ruling seem like it may be a step in the right direction, be very careful. They'll use that step to stomp on your head. 

[OLDNEWBIE]

2 hours ago, Hozzie said:

I’m ok with it.  Parents need to be held accountable.  As mentioned it will be selective prosecution, but parents need to take more responsibility.  

The kid posted a vid with him playing alone with a loaded 22 handgun prior to killings.

The dad claimed in trial the 9mm murder weapon was locked up but kid claimed it wasn't.

Not getting any info yet kid was acting weird prior to the death drawing but I haven't watched alot of the testimony. Some families keep guns around unlocked as I have though not loaded. Sounds sexist but I had girls who had zero interest. If I had a teen boy perhaps I would take more precautions against  unsupervised access. Even if he had no signs of instability. Boys get the itch to mess with guns and show them to friends etc. 

I have mixed feelings about the verdict but what I know is soon we will be hearing about a gun owner getting charged because his stolen gun was used in a murder. I'm not ok with that ever.

[BigK]

I'm all for personal responsibility, consequences, prosecuting negligence, and gun safety. The texts beforehand about the ammo and stuff sounds like the same eye-rolling comment I'd make about liberal teachers overreacting if I thought my son was a normal, well-adjusted kid. I'm not sure I understand the timeline, but it sounds like both the school and the parents found out the same day that the kid needed help and it wasn't until the parents got home that they discovered the gun was missing.

I just can't believe the kid wasn't sent home and nobody checked the backpack.

[expendable]

1 hour ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

The kid posted a vid with him playing alone with a loaded 22 handgun prior to killings.

The dad claimed in trial the 9mm murder weapon was locked up but kid claimed it wasn't.

Not getting any info yet kid was acting weird prior to the death drawing but I haven't watched alot of the testimony. Some families keep guns around unlocked as I have though not loaded. Sounds sexist but I had girls who had zero interest. If I had a teen boy perhaps I would take more precautions against  unsupervised access. Even if he had no signs of instability. Boys get the itch to mess with guns and show them to friends etc. 

I have mixed feelings about the verdict but what I know is soon we will be hearing about a gun owner getting charged because his stolen gun was used in a murder. I'm not ok with that ever.

I didn’t even think about if you gun is stolen and used in a crime. 

[BigK]

4 minutes ago, expendable said:

I didn’t even think about if you gun is stolen and used in a crime. 

I saw conflicting info about who the gun actually belonged to. The fact that it was kept in the parents' room seems to mean it was not "really" the kid's gun, yet they said it was a Christmas gift. If he took it without permission from his parents room, does that mean he stole it?

[gregintenn]

I was always under the impression that parents were legally responsible for their childrens’ actions until the age of 18.

[monkeylizard]

Gang-banger parents won't likely be affected by this, not just because of selective prosecution. The facts of this case won't generally overlap. Gang bangers don't usually get their guns and ammo from momma.

Edited March 23 by monkeylizard

[DHF]

52 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

Gang bangers don't usually get their guns and ammo from momma.

... or the name of their daddy.

Edited March 24 by DHF

[E4 No More]

On 3/16/2024 at 2:50 PM, Hozzie said:

I’m ok with it.  Parents need to be held accountable.  As mentioned it will be selective prosecution, but parents need to take more responsibility.  

I disagree. Not a single parent can tell you that they know everything their teenager does. I think everyone on here could give you examples of things they did that their parents never found out about. I know that I could.

[Hozzie]

2 hours ago, E4 No More said:

I disagree. Not a single parent can tell you that they know everything their teenager does. I think everyone on here could give you examples of things they did that their parents never found out about. I know that I could.

If parents know you are going to be on the real hook for their kids actions, I bet they would do more to make sure their kids don’t do them through better parenting.   
 

They aren’t throwing parents in jail for their kids stealing a candy bar.   Shoot a bunch of people, that’s a different matter.   Or you would really need to show you did everything you could to prevent it.  I think we are talking about egregious actions here.  Not trivial crimes. 
 

I’m ok with agreeing to disagree. 

Edited March 24 by Hozzie

[E4 No More]

1 hour ago, Hozzie said:

If parents know you are going to be on the real hook for their kids actions, I bet they would do more to make sure their kids don’t do them through better parenting.   
 

They aren’t throwing parents in jail for their kids stealing a candy bar.   Shoot a bunch of people, that’s a different matter.   Or you would really need to show you did everything you could to prevent it.  I think we are talking about egregious actions here.  Not trivial crimes. 
 

I’m ok with agreeing to disagree. 

Me too.

[expendable]

I could be wrong but I think this is a first for this type of verdict of the parents being charged for the child’s crime, so now there is a precedent. 

The question now is when and where will they use this precedent in the future. 

[DHF]

4 hours ago, expendable said:

The question now is when and where will they use this precedent in the future. 

Very accurate.  I think all of us who look at the details for a few minutes can see that the parents in this case displayed a lot of issues beyond just being unaware or unable to control as did the school system.  But, it is still very concerning as how this verdict will now be allowed to be used.  These are the same people that want to bring charges against the owner of a firearm if it is stolen from their vehicle or home (or probably anywhere/anyhow) and used in a crime.  I'm sure they don't want to just stop there.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Just heard on radio the Judge went beyond recommendations and gave the parents 15 years! 

As for knowing everything your teen is up to or capable of? Plenty of cases out there of parents being murdered by their kids. They obviously didn't know. Normalcy bias of years of living together makes you oblivious. 

I've watched some trial coverage now and feel the parents were not horrible but definitely had lost interest in actively being involved with the kid.  The marriage was bad apparently and alot of teens these days are hard to be close to anyway.

What I'm saying is I guess 15 years is weirdly harsh unless the parents let the kid know this is your gun, keep it in your room, mess with it anytime unsupervised and btw here's some ammo. I don't think anything like that was in the trial. Gun was in parents room unloaded, hidden?

Not great, a little stupid with a teen boy interested in guns but no law on storage at the time was broken I believe. So why 15 years?

[peejman]

4 hours ago, OLDNEWBIE said:

Just heard on radio the Judge went beyond recommendations and gave the parents 15 years! 

As for knowing everything your teen is up to or capable of? Plenty of cases out there of parents being murdered by their kids. They obviously didn't know. Normalcy bias of years of living together makes you oblivious. 

I've watched some trial coverage now and feel the parents were not horrible but definitely had lost interest in actively being involved with the kid.  The marriage was bad apparently and alot of teens these days are hard to be close to anyway.

What I'm saying is I guess 15 years is weirdly harsh unless the parents let the kid know this is your gun, keep it in your room, mess with it anytime unsupervised and btw here's some ammo. I don't think anything like that was in the trial. Gun was in parents room unloaded, hidden?

Not great, a little stupid with a teen boy interested in guns but no law on storage at the time was broken I believe. So why 15 years?

The kid begged for mental help and they bought him a gun instead.  These people couldn't put their own problems down long enough to pay any attention to their kid. That's absolutely pathetic.  They got off easy, though 15 years in prison as his parents likely won't be easy time. 

[OLDNEWBIE]

51 minutes ago, peejman said:

The kid begged for mental help and they bought him a gun instead.  These people couldn't put their own problems down long enough to pay any attention to their kid. That's absolutely pathetic.  They got off easy, though 15 years in prison as his parents likely won't be easy time. 

Not so sure of timeline, did he actually ask/beg for mental health or just showed signs of a need?  Seems he deteriorated quickly though and the pic in the school warranted a backpack check at a minimum. School had some responsibility there too. Perhaps if I watched entire trial Id agree with you somewhat but it didn't seem so black and white from what I saw. Parents were definitely distracted and ignoring him alot but perhaps more often than not this is the case in the US. Again no lock up laws at the time, it wasn't stored in his room or kept with him. Perhaps they truely believed he was a reasonably good, sane kid with a few little problems who followed rules. The other thing that bothers me is the parents of gangbanger punks. Certainly this more often happens with these cases but just not in schools. Why these two parents now? Believe me, next is a gun owners stolen gun will get the owner jail time.

Lastly,I have to go there....your kid has anxiety meds, adhd, depression but begs you to drive. You make it happen, learner permit then he steals the keys one day and purposely runs down a bunch of kids.

Kids, people who do these awful crimes dont always broadcast their plans and sometimes hide their problems. The shooter scratched out the bad parts of the picture he drew for instance before the parents saw it at the school.

[Grayfox54]

No doubt they failed as parents. But holding someone responsible for the actions of another? I could easily see this going all the way to to SCOTUS.