223 sizing problem

[DeepSouth]

I went through a 2 1/2 gallon bag of 223/556 cases. Looked at headstamps first. Aquila and Perfecta cases went into the scrap bucket. Then I used a pin light down the neck, added some Berdan primed cases to the bucket. Then measured length, all cases over 1.755 got trimmed to 1.750. Then they were decapped. Then polished. (All 223 cases were between 1.735 and 1.756. All 556 cases were between 1.762 and 1.772) Only difference in length was the neck.

Now here's my problem: I set the sizing die in the press and run a few through. Test with a .224 bullet, it falls through all of them. Have tried 3 Lee, 1 Lyman and 1 RCBS sizing dies, all the same. Measured the bullet, .224. Measured the decap pin, all 5, .220.

[gregintenn]

Is you die screwed into the press until it touches the shellholder when all the way to the top?

Did you acquire all these sizing dies used? Could someone have altered them?

 

If your expander balls all measure .220" and your die is adjusted properly so that the expander ball goes through the neck of the case and the neck goes all the way up into the sizing die, You should have a pretty snug interference fit between a .224" bullet and a .220" case neck.

 

Are you lubing your cases and making sure you pull the handle all the way to the bottom? It takes a fair amount of force to run a bottleneck case through a sizing die?

Sorry if those seem like dumb questions, but I do not know what you know and am just trying to weed out the obvious?

Edited February 8 by gregintenn

[gregintenn]

If the dies were preowned, it could be the previous owner replaced the sizing balls with larger ones for loading cast bullets. Without actually seeing the stuff in person, I'm just spitballing.

[Omega]

+1 what greg asked, and did the primers come out?  If they did then something is not right, by the time the pin goes through the flash hole, the expander should have went through the neck.  Talk us through how you setup your sizing die, so we can see if there are any obvious issues.  Oh, and don't be embarrassed to let us know if you screwed up something, we've all been there, some of us more than once 

[DeepSouth]

Primers were removed using a universal decapping die.

I screw the die down to where I think it should be. Put a case in the holder and press down. While the handle is down I screw the die down until I see the handle move. Press the handle and adjust die depth until it can't move anymore.

The Lee sets were new, the Lyman and RCBS bought used.

 

[Darrell]

52 minutes ago, DeepSouth said:

While the handle is down I screw the die down until I see the handle move.

I think you're failing to size the neck of your brass.  The Lee dies have an instruction sheet with them. Without a case in the shell holder screw the die in until the die just contacts the shell holder. Then lift the handle and screw the die down another 1/8 to 1/4 turn. Lock the die in place with the locking ring. Then run a case through the die. You should feel the handle go over-center at the bottom of the stroke, something like a click or a thud. Try that and see if the bullet still drops through the sized case.

Edited February 8 by Darrell

[gregintenn]

What Darrell said.

I do not believe you are screwing the die into the press far enough.

 

As my wife often reminds me “When all else fails, read the instructions!”

[Omega]

Yup, Darrell pegged it.  What you are doing is feeling the resistance on the case, neck/body, or the expander in the neck and that is moving the handle.  Follow the instructions Darrell posted, which are what Lee recommends, and it should size the case fine.  I will add though, be sure to lube the cases, 223/5.56 are the only ones I have gotten stuck in the sizing die, more than once. 

[ohell]

The common solution is noted.  Brass spring back is a consideration. Do you know history of brass?  All of those should be ball expander and not bushing dies - best to measure bullet, neck and expander ball with micrometer and pin gauge on sized brass. If calipers are all you have work with it carry on.  Size, measure out neck tension and issue should reveal itself, if not repeat once.  
 

If you setup with ball expander / decap pin too deep that may cause loose neck tension, deep enough to punch primer and that’s it- about 3/16 protruding and no more.   

[jpx2rk]

LEE dies use the mandrel style pin, and the nut on the top of the die needs to be really tight to prevent the decap/sizing mandrel from being pushed back up when the ram is raised.  I've read numerous threads to NOT follow the directions included with LEE dies, specifically to not turn the die that additional 1/8 to 1/4 turn after the die touches the shell holder at the top of the ram stroke.  I've followed the  LEE directions, and you will oversize/overwork the brass, and usually have to back the die out some to get the proper sizing acheived.

Raise the ram, screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, snug the lock ring, lube a case and run it thru the die.  Use the Hornady Headspace comparator tool(s) on the unsized case, and then after running it thru the die.  Adjust the die in or out as needed.  Use a different piece of brass if you oversize a piece (headspace is below your target measurement).

[Darrell]

On 2/8/2024 at 4:29 PM, DeepSouth said:

The Lee sets were new, the Lyman and RCBS bought used.

Just one more thing:  Be sure to use a properly measured amount of the correct gun powder for the bullet weight you select. Reference a reloading manual, or the load sheet that came with your Lee dies. They will list a range of loads, listed in grains, of different powders for different bullets. You should not exceed the maximum amount of powder listed for any particular bullet weight, and you'd be wise to start with a powder weight at the lower end of the scale and work your way up. DO NOT substitute a different powder from those listed in the manual. 

[DeepSouth]

I counted 1,000 cases to work with. Measured until I found 1 at 1.755 and set the seating die to barely crimp the neck. Ran all through the seating to crimp the neck some. Measured with a bullet, separating those that a bullet would fall through and those that won't. Turned the seating die 1/2 turn in and ran those that go through again. Measured again with a bullet and separated. Did that 3 more times until bullet wouldn't fall through any of the cases.
Used a nail set by hand to expand the neck enough so the bullet would start into the neck.
Set up for making a few dummy rounds so seating die would be set. Screw the seating die in until it touches the shell holder and adding 1 full turn. Very little crimp on the neck using the RCBS die. Can turn bullet in crimped neck. Press bullet by hand into the case body.
No crimping action with the 3 Lee's or 1 Lyman seating dies.
Tried the factory crimp dies, no increase in tension on neck.
I tried the Lee seating dies by hand. Can push case in until the head is flush with the bottom of the die and touching the crimp area. Sounds like the die is to long.

[gregintenn]

Your seating die isn’t the issue. The sizing die is the problem. 
 

I would very strongly recommend you get a commercially produced reloading manual and read it. Also, read the instructions for your dies, particularly the part that pertains to adjusting the SIZING die.

Edited February 13 by gregintenn

[leroy]

Been watching this a bit.  As others have opined, I think the sizing die is not sizing the case neck. 

You could have a bad sizing die or the die is adjusted wrong.  The guys that tell ya to run the sizing die all the way to the top of the shell holder are right. 

With the ram down, adjust the die to touch the top of the shell holder.  Run a case thru and check the shoulder space.

Adjust further down from there by trial and error about 1/8 to 1/4 turn at a time to get the shoulder spacing right using a case gage.  That should fully size the case neck. 

I would also take another look at the expander ball.  It could be too large. 

If the rounds you are loading are for an AR, I would recommend a RCBS Small Base sizing die ( if they still make em ) if the above die set up won't work.

leroy.

[DeepSouth]

"Your seating die isn’t the issue."

It won't crimp enough, why isn't it the problem?

[leroy]

2 minutes ago, DeepSouth said:

"Your seating die isn’t the issue."

It won't crimp enough, why isn't it the problem?

The sizing die is supposed to make the neck smaller than the bullet so ya get neck tension on the bullet.  Neck tension is what holds the bullet in the neck, the crimp is just " the icing on the cake ". 

I think you measured the expander ball at .220... A 223 bullet is .223 or .224 diameter.  Three to 4 thousands larger. 

This " interference" is what adds the " neck tension " to hold the bullet in the case mouth.  The bullet can only fall thru into the case if the neck has not been resized after firing.  

leroy...

[DeepSouth]

Who in the Memphis area loads 223? I'll bring my dies and a bag of cases to see what you can do.

[DeepSouth]

The sizing die isn't sizing the neck small enough for bullet not to fall into case body, none of them.

[leroy]

11 minutes ago, DeepSouth said:

The sizing die isn't sizing the neck small enough for bullet not to fall into case body, none of them.

The sizing die simply is not re sizing the case neck.  Check this out...

https://sierrabullets.wordpress.com/2016/05/26/how-important-is-neck-tension/.  

I ain't sure why, but it isn't.  The seating due simply pushes the bullet into the case and adds a crimp.  It will not help resize the neck.

leroy...

[Darrell]

11 hours ago, DeepSouth said:

The sizing die isn't sizing the neck small enough for bullet not to fall into case body, none of them.

Are you pressing the sizing die all the way to the shell holder when you operate your press?  Your case should be entirely within the sizing die at the end of the stroke.

I live too far from Memphis to invite you over, but if you want to send me one of your sizing dies I will size a couple of my empty cases to test the die for you, then send it back with the sized cases. 

Edited February 13 by Darrell

[gregintenn]

11 hours ago, DeepSouth said:

The sizing die isn't sizing the neck small enough for bullet not to fall into case body, none of them.

I am pretty sure that is because it isn’t adjusted correctly.

[gregintenn]

I think perhaps you have confused the setup procedure for the sizing die and the bullet seating die. They are different.

 

Sizing die:

The recapping pin should be protruding from the bottom of the die about 1/8” or so. Put shellholder in the press and lower the ram all the way with no case in it. While holding the ram all the way down, screw the sizing die into the press until you feel it contact the shellholder. Screw it in another 1/2 turn and lock it in place with the lock ring nut. It is now correctly adjusted. Lightly lube the body to f your case and case mouth. Do not lube the shoulder of the case. Put it in the shellholder and lower the ram all the way. This will take more force than a straight walled pistol case. Wipe the lube off the case with a rag, trim the case to the proper length chamfer the case mouth inside and out.

You should not need to crimp the case. The tension from the case neck and long bullet is more than sufficient to hold it in place.

This procedure is different from straight walled pistol cases I gather you’ve loaded before. Failure to lube bottle necked cases will result in a case stuck in your sizing die. Not fun.

[gregintenn]

https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/article/full-length-die-adjustment

[DeepSouth]

Found the problem, worn/broke linkage handle pin. Replaced with a 4" bolt for now. Sent about 300 through the sizing die last night. Will test load a few dummies today.

[gregintenn]

5 minutes ago, DeepSouth said:

Found the problem, worn/broke linkage handle pin. Replaced with a 4" bolt for now. Sent about 300 through the sizing die last night. Will test load a few dummies today.

Cool! I could never have predicted that.