Hypothetical Situation...

[Guest clmurray]

Your standing in line at a convenience/grocery store...the guy in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier, not you, you are not even in his thoughts at this point, and demands the money in the register. Of course you have your weapon on you...I know what I would do...but what legally can you do? I got several takes on this at work, and I thought this would be a perfect place to pose the question. Thanks in advance.

[Louisb]

As I remember the wording in class oh so long ago . . .

"fear for your life or someone elses life"

Word could have been "Safety" rather than "Life"

Surely there are many here that have had the class far more recently than I have!

[dralarms]

Your standing in line at a convenience/grocery store...the guy in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier, not you, you are not even in his thoughts at this point, and demands the money in the register. Of course you have your weapon on you...I know what I would do...but what legally can you do? I got several takes on this at work, and I thought this would be a perfect place to pose the question. Thanks in advance.

If, and I mean IF you or the clerk are in danger of being shot, take him out. But if he is just stealing the money, does NOT point the gun at you then hide and call 911. You don't get paid to be a hero, and the store has insurance for the theft.

Just to give you a "for instance": you are standing there, and he pulls a gun at the clerk, you put a cap in his a@@ and it turns out he had a water gun, YOU ARE SCREWED.

There are many different opinions on this here on the board and someone will come along and tell you to put a cap in him, but in a split second you have to make the decision that you will have to live with the rest of your life.

Now that being said, if I'm standing there and some guy runs in a robs the place and starts shooting, say into the ceiling, I can't be certain the next round will not be in the clerk or myself, or anyone else standing (or at this time hiding) I would have to think that I would be able to take the shot to save a life. But if he is just waving a gun around then no I would not be able to justify it in my own mind.

[Superman]

What if the robber has a buddy standing close to the door behind you. You pull your gun only to get shot. They covered this on an episode of Personal Defense TV, in their opinion the best option is to stay aware and be a good witness

[Punisher84]

If, and I mean IF you or the clerk are in danger of being shot, take him out. But if he is just stealing the money, does NOT point the gun at you then hide and call 911. You don't get paid to be a hero, and the store has insurance for the theft.

Just to give you a "for instance": you are standing there, and he pulls a gun at the clerk, you put a cap in his a@@ and it turns out he had a water gun, YOU ARE SCREWED.

Good advice on the first part, but as for the second WRONGO! Tennessee has what is often referred to as a the "reasonable person" standard. If a guy is pointing anything that realistically resembles a weapon at someone or you it would be justifiable defense of a 3rd party.

Same as a furtive movement shooting. "I told him to take his hands out of his pockets and he went like he was going for a gun."

I'll also refer to the DeAuntae Farrow case. Kid has a toy gun, looks real, points it at officer and refuses to drop it. Kid catches a round. The cop was ruled justified, but he left his job over it because of idiots like Jesse Jackson, etc. Even though that case was in AR it still holds true.

I knew that officer involved in that too. I met him quite awhile after it had happened through a mutual friend. Horrible thing to have to deal with, but if the NAACP and trash hadn't made it into something it wasn't he'd still be doing his job. Sorry kind of a side rant there.

[strickj]

What if the robber has a buddy standing close to the door behind you. You pull your gun only to get shot. They covered this on an episode of Personal Defense TV, in their opinion the best option is to stay aware and be a good witness

Yeah,I saw that and thought it was kinda silly!

When does that actually happen!

If it did happen,then your ninja sense would kick in,and you could kick the bad guy behind you in the head,while simultaneously drawing your weapon to shoot the bad guy in front of you!

They teach you this down at the Ninja Tact Elite School for Whoopin Bad Peoples Butt down by the river!

[Fallguy]

Since the question ask what can you legally do, instead of what I may or may not do.

Legally, if you reasonably feel the clerk is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, you can use deadly force.

39-11-612 Defense of third person.

A person is justified in threatening or using force against another to protect a third person, if:

(1)

Under the circumstances as the person reasonably believes them to be, the person would be justified under §

39-11-611

in threatening or using force to protect against the use or attempted use of unlawful force reasonably believed to be threatening the third person sought to be protected; and

(2)

The person reasonably believes that the intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

[Jasongar8]

Of course you have your weapon on you...I know what I would do...

Have you ever been in this EXACT situation? If not the you DONT know what you would do. Until you have been there and done it, none of us know what we would do. It is dangerous thinking to become complacent and think you know exactly you would do in any given situation, keep training for any and all situations.

-Jason G

Edited April 16, 2009 by Jasongar8

[Guest sstouder]

Since the question ask what can you legally do, instead of what I may or may not do.

Legally, if you reasonably feel the clerk is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, you can use deadly force.

39-11-612 Defense of third person.

A person is justified in threatening or using force against another to protect a third person, if:

(1)

Under the circumstances as the person reasonably believes them to be, the person would be justified under §

39-11-611

in threatening or using force to protect against the use or attempted use of unlawful force reasonably believed to be threatening the third person sought to be protected; and

(2)

The person reasonably believes that the intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

and that my friends is how you own a thread haha

[Guest db99wj]

We went through this exact scenario not too long ago. I will be behind the Twinkies.

My thoughts on this have changed a little. I was for taking out the bg, however, after that last discussion, my first priority for me is to ensure my safety, first and foremost. Wife and 4 kids to support so I am headed for cover and getting into a defensive position, ie behind the twinkies, they are the kevlar of the food world. Anyway, at that point, I am going to try to be the best witness, covering myself in all directions, gun drawn, but still hidden. I don't want bg to see my gun and freakout and start shooting. It seems a lot of the robberies that do happen of convience stores that are armed, no shots are fired. Anyway, that is my first course of action. IF the bg does threaten the third person and I am able and in a position that I can, I will fire. IF the bg comes toward me with gun in hand, I'm firing.

Of course these are What If's, and thousands of variables are involved that will alter any situation. One of the things that I do or try to do is NOT to go into these places. I will get gas there, but try not go in. Usually the times that I go into a C store is if we are on a trip out of town. And as I mentioned, my first priority is to get home to my wife and kids. Everything else is secondary. I don't and will not make any apologies for that. Everything else is secondary, not saying I won't try if I can, but see my first priority.

[TN9mm]

behind the twinkies, they are the kevlar of the food world

That is awesome. Seriously I agree with you getting home is #1 all else is secondary. The problem I see with this hypothetical is it I think it would be difficult to get into a position to take a safe shot. In the situation the OP describes you could endanger the clerk you would be trying to protect by firring. Second if you change your angle to the side you could perhaps send a flyer straight out the front window into the parking lot. Or for those who carry the hand cannons you could go straight through the bad guy and into the pregnant lady pumping gas outside. All in all the situation would be very, very dicey.

I think I would head for the twinkies prepare and try to posture for the best angle if I did have to fire. That said with you behind the BG, you have options. I don't think the advice from PDTV is all that bad most of the time I would think that there is a buddy just outside in the get-a-way car and if everyone just stays calm they will be burning rubber out of the parking lot in just a few seconds. $$ is not worth a firefight.

[Guest clmurray]

Thanks everyone for the responses..ill continue to practice and train...and hope im never faced with this situation...but if i am...i hope i will respond accordingly.

[Guest kingtone]

Have you ever been in this EXACT situation? If not the you DONT know what you would do. Until you have been there and done it, none of us know what we would do. It is dangerous thinking to become complacent and think you know exactly you would do in any given situation, keep training for any and all situations.

-Jason G

i think most rational people here would understand that you can not know exactly what you would do.. but thats what hypothetical situations and training are for. To prepare you to have a plan for what you would do. or translate that as what you would prefer and ultimately want to do.

When i studied martial arts.. i knew what i would do if someone threw a punch... and i was prepared.. but as jason points out.. i might do something completely different in the situation... but at least im partially trained and prepared to deal with it.

Id like to see more of these hypothetical situations discussed. It really makes me think and opens my mind a little more to all the factors involved that i might not think of immediately. thanks for posting!

[TN9mm]

i think most rational people here would understand that you can not know exactly what you would do.. but thats what hypothetical situations and training are for. To prepare you to have a plan for what you would do. or translate that as what you would prefer and ultimately want to do.

+1 Kingtone

I like to hear the differing opinions as well. As well as the comic relief. This is how we can learn and help each other out.

[Guest canynracer]

We have gone through this one before...

here are the responses..http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/15702-when-poo-flies-question.html

There is even the answer to this:

What if the robber has a buddy standing close to the door behind you. You pull your gun only to get shot. They covered this on an episode of Personal Defense TV, in their opinion the best option is to stay aware and be a good witness

the answer needs to be quoted here for historical record cause it is the BEST answer EVAR!!!!

Thats why when you pull your gun, you perform a tactical crouch thereby causing BG #2 to shoot BG #1 in the back of the head. Then you perform a tactical turn-around and shoot BG #2 in the face while he stands there stunned that he just capped his buddy in the back of the head. Bang. Done. Next question.

Edited April 17, 2009 by canynracer

[Guest kcnative]

Id like to see more of these hypothetical situations discussed.

+1

[Guest db99wj]

We have gone through this one before...

here are the responses..http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/15702-when-poo-flies-question.html

There is even the answer to this:

the answer needs to be quoted here for historical record cause it is the BEST answer EVAR!!!!

You'll be behind me at the Twinkies stand!

[Guest Matchguy]

....... Tennessee has what is often referred to as a the "reasonable person" standard. If a guy is pointing anything that realistically resembles a weapon at someone or you it would be justifiable defense of a 3rd party.........."

This is an excellent point that is generally the case throughout the United States. The body of case law states that the threat to your life must be present or apparent......it's the "apparent" part that protects you. You will be judged by what a man of ordinary reason and prudence would have believed in that circumstance. For example, say some nut wants to commit suicide by cop and goes racing by a cop in order to get stopped. Once stopped he steps out of the car and pulls an EMPTY .45 auto and begins to raise it as if to shoot the cop........and gets shot and killed in the process. Is the cop expected to know the badguy's gun is empty? No. Any reasonable man would conclude that when somebody points a pistol at you in a hostile manner, your life is in imminent jeopardy. The same holds true for a facsimile of a gun. So in this case, the threat to the cop's life, while not present, WAS apparent and imminent to a man of ordinary reason and prudence, and the use of deadly force in defense would be reasonable under the law since it imparted a reasonable fear of imminent death.

In essence we can summarize all this up by simply saying that you will not necessarily be judged by what the circumstances actually were, but rather by what you reasonably believed them to be.....with strong emphasis on the "reasonably" part.

Also, for those of you who don't know it, a cop's right to self defense is exactly the same as yours under the law. There is no difference between the ordinary citizen's right and the right of a public safety officer.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Matchguy

[Guest cjames38464]

Exactly, I think I'll go be hind the Snickers (maybe I'll blend in with the other nuts and the bg won't see me...camo),the store will be appreciative of your efforts, as they give their condoleences...Personal Saftey first!!! My rule as well

Edited April 17, 2009 by cjames38464

[Punisher84]

This is an excellent point that is generally the case throughout the United States. The body of case law states that the threat to your life must be present or apparent......it's the "apparent" part that protects you. You will be judged by what a man of ordinary reason and prudence would have believed in that circumstance. For example, say some nut wants to commit suicide by cop and goes racing by a cop in order to get stopped. Once stopped he steps out of the car and pulls an EMPTY .45 auto and begins to raise it as if to shoot the cop........and gets shot and killed in the process. Is the cop expected to know the badguy's gun is empty? No. Any reasonable man would conclude that when somebody points a pistol at you in a hostile manner, your life is in imminent jeopardy. The same holds true for a facsimile of a gun. So in this case, the threat to the cop's life, while not present, WAS apparent and imminent to a man of ordinary reason and prudence, and the use of deadly force in defense would be reasonable under the law since it imparted a reasonable fear of imminent death.

In essence we can summarize all this up by simply saying that you will not necessarily be judged by what the circumstances actually were, but rather by what you reasonably believed them to be.....with strong emphasis on the "reasonably" part.

Also, for those of you who don't know it, a cop's right to self defense is exactly the same as yours under the law. There is no difference between the ordinary citizen's right and the right of a public safety officer.

Thanks Matchguy! That's a much better explanation of it than mine. I have writer's fail lol

[S&WForty]

There's a lot of good sense in this thread. These are indeed good to read and think about.

[Guest canynracer]

You'll be behind me at the Twinkies stand!

As stated in the above poo flying thread...I will be behind the Ballistic Twinkies with The Bronker and DB99wj watching Bkelm perform his "crouching Monkey hidden poo" thow and tactical rolls

[Guest nraforlife]

HERO - He Expired Rescuing Others. Watch out for his/her partner BEFORE you make your move.

[TN9mm]

I know we could all sign up for our own personal

then we would never have to worry about it......anymore.

[Punisher84]

As stated in the above poo flying thread...I will be behind the Ballistic Twinkies with The Bronker and DB99wj watching Bkelm perform his "crouching Monkey hidden poo" thow and tactical rolls

I'll yell "Contact" just to make sure he rolls properly.