WHY?

[NoBanStan]

2 hours ago, Snaveba said:

And I thought that chances that the school at which my wife works would be the site of a school shooting was almost zero. Yet here we are. 

Oof yeah...

not to change the subject, but i hope she's holding up alright. You too

[pop pop]

Homeland Security announced Christian Schools and churches need to be on alert because of the Christian holiday season and political unrest over Israel in the U S.  

Edited to add; Heard this on TV news. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by pop pop

[Grayfox54]

If you are a terrorist, especially one who hates Christians and the biggest Christian holiday of the year is coming up, why would you not target a place where you know exactly when and where a large group of your enemy will be gathered? Jesus may love you, but he can't stop a bullet. 

[btq96r]

I agree with the statistics being to the point where not carrying is a perfectly valid frame of thought.  I also agree with those who carry anyway because why not, just in case a pistol isn't that hard to carry and won't burden you all that much.  The choice matters, but I don't think life can be enjoyed if you're constantly expecting the worst and looking out for it.  Carrying a pistol and being ready to react is as far as I'm willing to let the tail wag the dog in my personal life on this.

[gun sane]

Forty years ago, the wife and I were among 150 spirit-filled worshippers in a service when a "disturbed" young man entered and capped an ex-girlfriend who had recently given her heart to the Lord.  An off-duty police officer jumped over two pews to wrestle the man to the floor and disarm him.  We later learned that the perp had planned to shoot the pastor as well, but he had not yet entered the sanctuary.  The woman died later at the hospital.

This horrific act was thought to be unthinkable until recent years, but Jesus told His disciples two millennia ago that the devil comes "to steal, to kill and to destroy."  Forewarned should be forearmed.  

I contemplated not carrying a gun because of my Christian belief until I read that Jesus, as He was being arrested the night before His crucifixion, told Peter to put his sword "in its place."  He did not tell his disciple to get rid of his weapon for good.  Self-defense is a God-given grace to us mortals to protect ourselves, the weak and the innocent.  It has its place in our chaotic society more today than perhaps as it was then.  We are living in perilous times when any atrocity is possible.

In our peaceful community, I carry pepper gel into church rather than my sidearm, but recently the pastor announced a meeting to discuss safety and first-aid situations.   I'm sure he will be looking for a few good men.

[BJB]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:53 PM, eRay said:

I guess I am in the minority here. Church is the only place I go without a gun. I realize there have been a few rare church shootings but if I can not trust my lord to protect me in his house where can I count on his protection. If I die in church, I figure it his will. I do not have a problem with your decision but it is just not for me.

Sir. As stated you are welcome to your opinion. I am just down the road from you in a medium size church. We have an established security team, and as recently as Nov 19 we had to intervene in a domestic dispute and kept a child from being taken. I too trust the Lord. But he has given some of us the ability and desire to protect his house. And I for one believe in the ABC’s ( Always Be Caring) 

I hope and pray every day that I do not have to intervene in a situation, but I also train regularly just in case 

[bersaguy]

On 12/5/2023 at 6:03 PM, pop pop said:

ERay, you are entitled to your opinion. Let me share with you my thoughts on this subject.

Jesus told the Apostles to buy a sword. (Luke 22:35-38) Anyone can read it for yourself in your Bible. In (Luke 9:3) earlier in the book of Luke, Jesus told the apostles He would take care of them, as he sent them out, and they acknowledged that fact He did take care of them in (Lk 22:35). And He said to them, "When I sent you out without a purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said "No, nothing." Then in the very next verse(36) He(Jesus) said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."(verse 38) "and they said, "Lord, Look, here are 2 swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 

Why would Jesus do this? Because he knew he was to be crucified, therefore He would not be bodily present to provide for them. 

I am totally not trying to be a smart butt, or disparage you in any way, but it seems to me if Jesus was not going to be able to provide necessities (including safety) for the apostles, what makes one think that He will do it for you? I mean we are talking safety here, or Jesus would not have told them to purchase a sword. Swords, when close, punch holes. Guns do it from up close or from a distance. They both are offensive weapons and can be used for self-defense.   

If I get harmed, while in church, and perhaps even die, I too have confidence God will take care of my soul thru my faith in His Son Jesus the Christ.  On the other hand, my wife and children are going to be without their husband and father. My church will be without a servant intent on doing good. If I can help it, I am not going to let them loose me, if I can prevent it. I am a God-fearing man and trying to do a good job of serving in Jesus Kingdom here on earth.  These are my thought, eRay.

I will go as far to say I like the fact that some are concealed carrying at my church.  And do pray that, if evil invades, God will guide them to protect all of us. Google the video from Sotherland Springs Church of Christ in Texas. You can see what their safety team did in real time. 

Edited to add content. 

I just went and read about the Sutherland Springs Church of Christ in Texas. That was a very terrible day for sure. The shooter picked the day that the Pastor which normally is there and armed was not there. I'm sure the pastor would have been out gunned but maybe just the fact that the shooter was receiving incoming hot lead may have discouraged him. No one will ever know but I think anyone that is going to be in body armor to go shoot up a Church is afraid of being shot to begin with so incoming hot lead may have made a difference.....JMHO!

[pop pop]

A Jewish Sinagua had a visitor who fired off some rounds outside today. I don't think he made it in the building but was stopped outside. I didn't catch where it was.  

We have been a little more cautious at our church as of late, however we are not being paranoid about it. Neither do I conceal carry because I am paranoid like some seem to think. I overcame paranoia while in Vietnam in a foxhole during "The Tet Offensive" of 1968. Nothing much unnerves me ever since, thank God. 

Edited to add; bersaguy google, "utube video west freeway church of Christ shooting" for more very recent info on another church shooting. Should touch all of us who carry. Stay Safe guys. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by pop pop

[Dirtshooter]

First Pop Pop let me thank you for your service to this country. One of my brother-in-laws was on his 2nd tour in Nam during the Tet offensive.  I have been the chairman of our safety team at church for 3 years and have just turned it over to a younger retired THP. We have about 30 camera's inside and out, we lock the doors about 10 after the services start, they have panic bars and people can always exit safely. Someone mans the camera's and 1 more team member armed in the foyer. If somebody wants in we have to allow them in unless they shoot the doors out, at that time it is going to get real ugly really fast. There are generally 175 people in attendance and at least 15-20 people with cc firearms, at least 2 women carry. I pray regularly that we never have to use a tool to defend our congregation, but we will if forced to. This isn't the world we grew up in guys and gals. Drug addicts will shoot you for the pocket change you have. I think Bersaguy told the story where a neighbor was attacked while cutting his grass, that is why you always keep your tool on your person and your head on a swivel. Sometimes it is just convenient to rob and or shoot the old guy cutting his grass, maybe get his keys and steal his truck while we're at it. Stay safe, pray always!!

[pop pop]

Thank you dirtshooter. I totally understand turning the team over to a younger Officer. I was glad to let the younger take over our previous team, but in our new church they drafted me. My skills are decreasing by the day however I have been practicing lots more recently. "Most probably" we will be called on to handle light disturbances, door locking, and directing traffic in our church, and prayerfully a very long shot on the more serious stuff. These small instances can be very unnerving to our brothers and sisters. Yes, I meant to say brothers, because some/many have not gotten the big message yet. I, for one, am verry thankful we do have some that are willing to put themselves out there for "the all". In the West Freeway church it only took one skilled senior citizen to save the many. IMO, he is and was a true "Warrior". So was the neighbor at the Southerland Springs church who stopped the shooter after he did the carnage there. Be strong and safe Dirtshooter. Thank you for your service to your church sir. 

Edited to add content; Dirtshooter google West Freeway Church of Christ shooting."   You will learn of that Warrior there. Watch the 3 minute Video in "real time". Shame on the people who only want to criticize humble efforts to protect others! 

Edited December 10, 2023 by pop pop

[Dirtshooter]

I have seen that video, and the only thing I see they did wrong was to let this guy enter into the auditorium. If you have a trench coat on anytime of the year, you will be talked to prior to going inside with our people. Everyone needs to look at that video and see just how quickly a bad person with a gun can kill people and in the same video see how a good guy with a gun can stop the innocent from being killed. Ya'll keep your heads on a swivel and you tool handy. We law abiding gun owners are always on the defense, we don't have the luxury of knowing who, when or where, but have to be ready for here and now.

[pop pop]

At my last church I had to tell people you do not have to allow a suspicious person in your building. If a guy comes in looking "Possibly Dangerous', you do not need to allow them into your building. They really had never thought about that.

We had the same kind of person get into my last church dressed in the same manner the shooter in the video was. Our perp had a hoodie on with it pulled over his head where you could not see his face and was very filthy and dressed heavily and the temp was 96 outside. He was acting deranged. Let me say this is not practicing favoritism, but safety we are talking about here. Favoritism is condemned in the Bible. 

Our plan was to handle such incidences, like this church allowed this shooter in, just outside of the locked entrance doors. Have 5 or 6 team members in reediness and 3 go outside and encircle the visitor and not allow him inside. This is called overwhelm them with numbers of team members and deny entrance to the perp. We always kept 1 team member in the entrance to alert other team members, but he had to go lock back entrance doors and leave his post for 3 minutes to accomplish the locking. A kid was on the rest room and came out, as the team member was locking doors, and let this type of perp into the doors to our church building, and he was in the auditorium before we knew it. Our perp turned out to be not a shooter, but he scared some of the ladies so bad they went to the restrooms and barfed up.

If you watch the short video, you will know what I am discussing here. 

Dirtshooter, Plans can have holes in them, sometimes, just like what happened to us in our situation. In my new church we now have 2 team members in the entrance at all times.  Usher and greeter with most likely 1 armed at all times. Plans of Mice and Men thing. Be safe. 

Edited for spelling;

Edited December 11, 2023 by pop pop

[Dirtshooter]

Just saw this, happened yesterday morning 5:00 a.m. Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska population 1,113 and a guy broke in and stabbed the Catholic priest to death. This needs to be a wake up call to everyone of us. These incidents don't always happen in big towns or cities. Also reading up on this incident, in August a 71 year old woman was murdered in this small town. There is are two interstate highways within 10 miles I-29 and I-680. So just because you live in a small town, how close is the nearest interstate highway or large city.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dirtshooter

[bersaguy]

Touching on subject I mentioned earlier on and that is body armor. I don't know how any folks here remember that movie theater that guy shot up during the Batman movie but he entered through a back entrance and started shooting people and he was in a full suit of body armor from head to toe. There are 3 theaters in that town and 2 of them are not gun free zones and the one the shooter was the only gun free zone of the 3. After he was finished he went out the back door and stood by his car and waited for the police to arrive. When they found him he was surrendering and had his hands in the air and was still dressed in the body armor. He was so scare that the police would shoot him that he made the police remove the armor and handcuff him. Now with that said, I often wonder how he would have reacted if he would have been getting pounded by incoming hot lead when there was not suppose to be any because he was careful to pick the theater that was gun free. I wonder what he would have done if there was a couple sheepdogs in the theater that had went against the gun free signs and were packing heat and began sending hot lead at the coward standing on the stage? I am betting a lot less people would have been killed and wounded.....JMHO!!   

[papa61]

12 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

Touching on subject I mentioned earlier on and that is body armor. I don't know how any folks here remember that movie theater that guy shot up during the Batman movie but he entered through a back entrance and started shooting people and he was in a full suit of body armor from head to toe. There are 3 theaters in that town and 2 of them are not gun free zones and the one the shooter was the only gun free zone of the 3. After he was finished he went out the back door and stood by his car and waited for the police to arrive. When they found him he was surrendering and had his hands in the air and was still dressed in the body armor. He was so scare that the police would shoot him that he made the police remove the armor and handcuff him. Now with that said, I often wonder how he would have reacted if he would have been getting pounded by incoming hot lead when there was not suppose to be any because he was careful to pick the theater that was gun free. I wonder what he would have done if there was a couple sheepdogs in the theater that had went against the gun free signs and were packing heat and began sending hot lead at the coward standing on the stage? I am betting a lot less people would have been killed and wounded.....JMHO!!   

This touches on another subject. ONE of the reasons I don't go to theaters anymore. There are no safe zones no matter what the sign states. That said, "gun free" zones are more dangerous. Modern history proves that.