WHY?

[pop pop]

Why does 80/90% of the people, of the world, just think they will never be in harm's way. I watched the T V news last week and saw the Muslims/Palestinian's pull up and jump out of a car, at a bus stop with many people waiting, and open fire with pistols killing and injuring, and no one had any way of defense. I mean just about everyone in their area are out to kill them.

We don't face the problems the Jews do, but we still have a slight/mediocre. chance here in the U S/TN.  How does people not see the risk and prepare themselves as best as they can. It just blows my mind! Like sheep being led to slaughter, so-to-speak. 

Last week I was drafted to be one of the security guys, at my present church where I attend. I am going to be in the regular rotation now.

About 14 years ago, I started a "Safety Team," consisting of 17 volunteers, at the previous church I/we attended.  I have become a little more mature, and driving at night is harder so we changed to a church much closer to where I live. Instead of driving 45 minutes we drive 8 minutes now. Big help for me with night driving. I call it my church, but in fact it is one body of the Lord's church here on earth. The team I started had to deal with several serious disturbances over the 14 years I was there. The church I am attending now already had a team, so they learned my history, and I got drafted. As I sit there in the entrance, behind locked doors, I pondered what I had seen earlier on the TV News how those Jews were just sitting ducks and wondered why they have not prepared, if they could.  I prayed to God to keep us safe, and prayed I would never need to use my tools in any situation, however if I needed too, I would have the ability. I just amazes me!!!! I guess warriors are in short supply now. 

[res308]

38 minutes ago, pop pop said:

I guess warriors are in short supply now. 

And there we have it. The truth of your last sentence covers a great deal. However, in a lot of places, the doctrine of passivism has taken over and warriors have been run out of the church and are no longer welcome.

[peejman]

Ignorance is bliss. Reality is scary. If you stay willfully ignorant of the scary, it can't get you. 

Our church of 500-ish people and about 5 acres employs a single off duty cop for services and events. He sits in his car most of the time, walks around inside occasionally. Nice guy, but its just security theater. 

[eRay]

I guess I am in the minority here. Church is the only place I go without a gun. I realize there have been a few rare church shootings but if I can not trust my lord to protect me in his house where can I count on his protection. If I die in church, I figure it his will. I do not have a problem with your decision but it is just not for me.

[FUJIMO]

Decades of indoctrination have led to what you see before you. 

[Defender]

Church is the last place id be unarmed! I dont like crowds for many reasons, but one of the reasons is lack of security.  Seems to me that large venues and especially churches are/will be targeted.  We just started going to a local church this past Sunday.  I don't know yet if they have a security team, but I did see some guys around  that COULD have filled that role.  If we decide to make this our new church home, I'll learn more, and if i see a need, offer my assistance.  If not, I'll still be armed.

[JohnSutton1980]

I agree. I don’t like crowds. Anywhere at any time. Sad to see this is what is needed these days. It is what it is now. I am starting to see signs more and more about no firearms being allowed in businesses. I refuse to give up a right under our constitution to attend, shop, dine, or anything! My Doctors office in Lenoir City has one of these signs up now. In the same small city that just a few weeks ago, an idiot walks into Walmart and pops off 8-10 rounds in the air with his rifle. Thankfully no one was injured or hurt. After having a serious talk with my Dr, it seems that her insurance company required it. Although I understand why she had to install this sign, it still means that I will have a different doctors office the next time I’m in need. Do NOT sacrifice your rights for anything. Church, Dr office, or grocery store. You may be the guy/gals who stops evil from attacking your community. Heads on a swivel guys.

[BigK]

I go to a small to medium size church and we don't have an official security team. Quite a few of us carry at church and discuss/plan/accept that unofficial role. I like it better that way to be honest...just a knowing wink and a nod is all it takes.

[pop pop]

ERay, you are entitled to your opinion. Let me share with you my thoughts on this subject.

Jesus told the Apostles to buy a sword. (Luke 22:35-38) Anyone can read it for yourself in your Bible. In (Luke 9:3) earlier in the book of Luke, Jesus told the apostles He would take care of them, as he sent them out, and they acknowledged that fact He did take care of them in (Lk 22:35). And He said to them, "When I sent you out without a purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said "No, nothing." Then in the very next verse(36) He(Jesus) said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."(verse 38) "and they said, "Lord, Look, here are 2 swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 

Why would Jesus do this? Because he knew he was to be crucified, therefore He would not be bodily present to provide for them. 

I am totally not trying to be a smart butt, or disparage you in any way, but it seems to me if Jesus was not going to be able to provide necessities (including safety) for the apostles, what makes one think that He will do it for you? I mean we are talking safety here, or Jesus would not have told them to purchase a sword. Swords, when close, punch holes. Guns do it from up close or from a distance. They both are offensive weapons and can be used for self-defense.   

If I get harmed, while in church, and perhaps even die, I too have confidence God will take care of my soul thru my faith in His Son Jesus the Christ.  On the other hand, my wife and children are going to be without their husband and father. My church will be without a servant intent on doing good. If I can help it, I am not going to let them loose me, if I can prevent it. I am a God-fearing man and trying to do a good job of serving in Jesus Kingdom here on earth.  These are my thought, eRay.

I will go as far to say I like the fact that some are concealed carrying at my church.  And do pray that, if evil invades, God will guide them to protect all of us. Google the video from Sotherland Springs Church of Christ in Texas. You can see what their safety team did in real time. 

Edited to add content. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by pop pop

[gregintenn]

5 hours ago, eRay said:

I guess I am in the minority here. Church is the only place I go without a gun. I realize there have been a few rare church shootings but if I can not trust my lord to protect me in his house where can I count on his protection. If I die in church, I figure it his will. I do not have a problem with your decision but it is just not for me.

God feeds me as well as protects me. He gave me the ability to go get food, however. He doesn’t simply lay it on the table every day. Just something to ponder.

Edited December 6, 2023 by gregintenn

[eRay]

30 minutes ago, pop pop said:

ERay, you are entitled to your opinion. Let me share with you my thoughts on this subject.

Jesus told the Apostles to buy a sword. (Luke 22:35-38) Anyone can read it for yourself in your Bible. In (Luke 9:3) earlier in the book of Luke, Jesus told the apostles He would take care of them, as he sent them out, and they acknowledged that fact He did take care of them in (Lk 22:35). And He said to them, "When I sent you out without a purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said "No, nothing." Then in the very next verse(36) He(Jesus) said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."(verse 38) "and they said, "Lord, Look, here are 2 swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 

Why would Jesus do this? Because he knew he was to be crucified, therefore He would not be bodily present to provide for them. 

I am totally not trying to be a smart butt, or disparage you in any way, but it seems to me if Jesus was not going to be able to provide necessities (including safety) for the apostles, what makes one think that He will do it for you? I mean we are talking safety here, or Jesus would not have told them to purchase a sword. Swords, when close, punch holes. Guns do it from up close or from a distance. They both are offensive weapons and can be used for self-defense.   

If I get harmed, while in church, and perhaps even die, I too have confidence God will take care of my soul thru my faith in His Son Jesus the Christ.  On the other hand, my wife and children are going to be without their husband and father. My church will be without a servant intent on doing good. If I can help it, I am not going to let them loose me, if I can prevent it. I am a God-fearing man and trying to do a good job of serving in Jesus Kingdom here on earth.  These are my thought, eRay.

I will go as far to say I like the fact that some are concealed carrying at my church.  And do pray that, if evil invades, God will guide them to protect all of us. Google the video from Sotherland Springs Church of Christ in Texas. You can see what their safety team did in real time. 

Edited to add content. 

OK. Let's look at this from a statistical standpoint. Seems last time I read the numbers something like 350 people a year die in mass shootings in the US. There are probably about 350 million people in the US. That means you have about a one in a million chance of being a mass shooting victim in this country. I am sure most of the 350 are not shot in church so that makes my odds much less. I think my odds are much greater of being killed in an auto accident on the way to church than from a mass shooter in church.

If I am wrong you are welcome to come to my funeral, stand over my casket, and say " I told you so " and I will be looking down on you smiling. I will take up my sword and carry it. Just not in the Temple.

 

[Garufa]

9 hours ago, pop pop said:

Why does 80/90% of the people, of the world, just think they will never be in harm's way.

Because most people do not want to live  every waking moment worrying about it. 

[papa61]

49 minutes ago, eRay said:

OK. Let's look at this from a statistical standpoint. Seems last time I read the numbers something like 350 people a year die in mass shootings in the US. There are probably about 350 million people in the US. That means you have about a one in a million chance of being a mass shooting victim in this country. I am sure most of the 350 are not shot in church so that makes my odds much less. I think my odds are much greater of being killed in an auto accident on the way to church than from a mass shooter in church.

If I am wrong you are welcome to come to my funeral, stand over my casket, and say " I told you so " and I will be looking down on you smiling. I will take up my sword and carry it. Just not in the Temple.

 

I understand and respect your choice. I would ask that you think about a couple of things. Are you unarmed to and from church? If not, how secure is your firearm in your car for the time you are in the services?

[papa61]

1 hour ago, pop pop said:

ERay, you are entitled to your opinion. Let me share with you my thoughts on this subject.

Jesus told the Apostles to buy a sword. (Luke 22:35-38) Anyone can read it for yourself in your Bible. In (Luke 9:3) earlier in the book of Luke, Jesus told the apostles He would take care of them, as he sent them out, and they acknowledged that fact He did take care of them in (Lk 22:35). And He said to them, "When I sent you out without a purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said "No, nothing." Then in the very next verse(36) He(Jesus) said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."(verse 38) "and they said, "Lord, Look, here are 2 swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 

Why would Jesus do this? Because he knew he was to be crucified, therefore He would not be bodily present to provide for them. 

I am totally not trying to be a smart butt, or disparage you in any way, but it seems to me if Jesus was not going to be able to provide necessities (including safety) for the apostles, what makes one think that He will do it for you? I mean we are talking safety here, or Jesus would not have told them to purchase a sword. Swords, when close, punch holes. Guns do it from up close or from a distance. They both are offensive weapons and can be used for self-defense.   

If I get harmed, while in church, and perhaps even die, I too have confidence God will take care of my soul thru my faith in His Son Jesus the Christ.  On the other hand, my wife and children are going to be without their husband and father. My church will be without a servant intent on doing good. If I can help it, I am not going to let them loose me, if I can prevent it. I am a God-fearing man and trying to do a good job of serving in Jesus Kingdom here on earth.  These are my thought, eRay.

I will go as far to say I like the fact that some are concealed carrying at my church.  And do pray that, if evil invades, God will guide them to protect all of us. Google the video from Sotherland Springs Church of Christ in Texas. You can see what their safety team did in real time. 

Edited to add content. 

Our Father will protect me in the end. Study will reveal that even God's chosen are susceptible to the evils of the world. My belief on why Jesus had the apostles arm themselves was to show that he gave himself willingly. It was a visual of the statement that he could call legions of angels to protect him but he did not need protection.
I, on the other hand, have to depend on the wisdom and skills He has allowed me to have. Another scripture tells us to defend those who cannot defend themselves. The church I used to attend knew I was at all times armed and it was made clear on occaision that they were comfortable and comforted by the knowledge.

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, eRay said:

OK. Let's look at this from a statistical standpoint. Seems last time I read the numbers something like 350 people a year die in mass shootings in the US. There are probably about 350 million people in the US. That means you have about a one in a million chance of being a mass shooting victim in this country. I am sure most of the 350 are not shot in church so that makes my odds much less. I think my odds are much greater of being killed in an auto accident on the way to church than from a mass shooter in church.

If I am wrong you are welcome to come to my funeral, stand over my casket, and say " I told you so " and I will be looking down on you smiling. I will take up my sword and carry it. Just not in the Temple.

 

Odds are I won’t burn up in a house fire, but that doesn’t stop me from installing smoke alarms and having fire extinguishers scattered about the house.

You do you. Just something to think about.

[peejman]

1 hour ago, eRay said:

OK. Let's look at this from a statistical standpoint. Seems last time I read the numbers something like 350 people a year die in mass shootings in the US. There are probably about 350 million people in the US. That means you have about a one in a million chance of being a mass shooting victim in this country. I am sure most of the 350 are not shot in church so that makes my odds much less. I think my odds are much greater of being killed in an auto accident on the way to church than from a mass shooter in church.

If I am wrong you are welcome to come to my funeral, stand over my casket, and say " I told you so " and I will be looking down on you smiling. I will take up my sword and carry it. Just not in the Temple.

 

Statistically, you're correct. Much more likely to die in a car wreck, from medical malpractice, or a long list of other things before we get to being shot. 

Talk with your clergy about the type of folks who they interact with regularly. I'd be really surprised if there's no one who's imbalanced to the point of being a little frightening. Ask them how many couples they're counseling.  My previous pastor had some pretty wild stories (no names of course) about folks he tried to help over the years. Crazy people do crazy things.  Churches are becoming more common targets. 

I'm not that hyper vigilant wannabe cop wearing my 511 pants, 9 line hat, and a fishing vest to church.  But to Greg's point, I'm not gonna just lay down either.  If I've got skills that can defend others, I don’t want to be asked to explain why I didn't try. 

[eRay]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

Odds are I won’t burn up in a house fire, but that doesn’t stop me from installing smoke alarms and having fire extinguishers scattered about the house.

You do you. Just something to think about.

True Greg but I would bet the odds are greater of you being in a house fire than a church shooting. Just guessing here. As for the smoke alarms, After 30 years of blowing a train whistle I can no longer hear a smoke alarm go off.

[eRay]

1 hour ago, peejman said:

Statistically, you're correct. Much more likely to die in a car wreck, from medical malpractice, or a long list of other things before we get to being shot. 

Talk with your clergy about the type of folks who they interact with regularly. I'd be really surprised if there's no one who's imbalanced to the point of being a little frightening. Ask them how many couples they're counseling.  My previous pastor had some pretty wild stories (no names of course) about folks he tried to help over the years. Crazy people do crazy things.  Churches are becoming more common targets. 

I'm not that hyper vigilant wannabe cop wearing my 511 pants, 9 line hat, and a fishing vest to church.  But to Greg's point, I'm not gonna just lay down either.  If I've got skills that can defend others, I don’t want to be asked to explain why I didn't try. 

I have dealt with plenty of those people. When I was young 40 years ago, I worked 4 years as a police officer. Believe me, I have seen what people will do to each other. I have also looked into the barrel of a British .303 being held by a mentally deranged man from 30 feet away. We all have to weigh the risks and decide what is best for us. There are probably 150 people in my church on a Sunday. For all I know 149 of them may be packing a gun. I won;t be one of them. Just a personal decision between me and my God. You do what is best for you. 

[BigK]

The left routinely uses the slim likelihood of needing a gun to defend yourself or others as a reason why nobody should be allowed to have guns at all. I didn't let those statistics WHETHER I chose to carry a gun so, I don't see why statistics would affect my decision WHERE I carry.

[NoBanStan]

14 hours ago, eRay said:

True Greg but I would bet the odds are greater of you being in a house fire than a church shooting. Just guessing here. As for the smoke alarms, After 30 years of blowing a train whistle I can no longer hear a smoke alarm go off.

I don't think it's just about a church shooting though. I'm on our church's safety team and recently a handgun was discovered in a diaper bag. My experience with firearms let me handle it carefully and make it safe until the parent could get a talking to.

I get your feelings about carrying at church though 100%. I struggled with it. This is the house of the Lord right? The decision was made pretty easy for me though. I'm a wall flower and after about 7 years of attending my church, i knew about 3-4 people. One day i got introduced to one of the safety team folks. After talking for a few minutes, he asked if I would be interested in serving. After saying yes, suddenly i started being drawn into being a recognized face. I talk to more people, they talk to me. I've started attending mens groups, bible studies and i'm even an usher now. The handgun is just there. Lord willing, i'll never need it.

[Snaveba]

17 hours ago, eRay said:

OK. Let's look at this from a statistical standpoint. Seems last time I read the numbers something like 350 people a year die in mass shootings in the US. There are probably about 350 million people in the US. That means you have about a one in a million chance of being a mass shooting victim in this country. I am sure most of the 350 are not shot in church so that makes my odds much less. I think my odds are much greater of being killed in an auto accident on the way to church than from a mass shooter in church.

If I am wrong you are welcome to come to my funeral, stand over my casket, and say " I told you so " and I will be looking down on you smiling. I will take up my sword and carry it. Just not in the Temple.

 

And I thought that chances that the school at which my wife works would be the site of a school shooting was almost zero. Yet here we are. 

[Hozzie]

First world problems.   Do what makes you feel good and justify it however you want.   I'm with Garufu, I'm not worried one bit about being in some shootout everywhere I go.   That doesn't mean be oblivious, it just means I am a believer in when it's my time it's my time.  Enjoy life, don't worry about every damn thing, including the highly unlikely chances you are going to be shot at church.  

[DocHawk]

23 hours ago, eRay said:

if I can not trust my lord to protect me in his house where can I count on his protection. 

Re-read Nehemiah. Paraphrased:

And so we prayed for protection (first), and posted a watch day and night (second) against this threat.

Yes, trust in God. And provide for your own welfare and the welfare of those entrusted to you. The two actions are not mutually exclusive.

[bersaguy]

I don't go anyplace out side my house that I am not armed. Back before I moved out here to the sticks and lived in Gallatin. I had neighbors that got robbed at gunpoint or knife point while grilling their family supper and another while cutting his lawn. These things took place in broad daylight. I went to my mail box once and had a car with 3 people in it come to an almost stop and I lifted my shirt to reach for my gun and the car sped off. This was about 1 PM in the day. If I go shopping and pick out a store to shop in, if they have a gun buster sign up I shop elsewhere. If they don't want my gun I don't want to give them my money.

  Now as for Church I use to attend a church 1 block from my house and many times I would walk on nice days with my gun concealed. That Church is now 44 miles away so I don't attend Church any longer.

I did hear on the news the other night that all religious places of Worship need to be on high alert right now as they are targets with what is going on in Israel and the Christmas holidays.  The said places of all faiths are targets but Jewish and Muslim are on highest alert.

  

[eRay]

2 hours ago, Snaveba said:

And I thought that chances that the school at which my wife works would be the site of a school shooting was almost zero. Yet here we are. 

Good point.