New AR

[pop pop]

I just purchased a new Springfield Armory Saint in 556/223 caliber. Just done it because I could. Will get it out, soon, and will ring it out. Beem away because my computer was hijacked for a while. 

[Grayfox54]

I've been interested in one of those. Let us know how it shoots. 

[pop pop]

What would be a good Self Defense ammo for the AR? I have a bunch of practice ammo, but not much S D ammo for the new tool. Any suggestions?

Edited to add content; Does anyone know what the Police use in their AR's?

Edited November 2, 2023 by pop pop

[aknifemaker]

Federal Fusion .223 ammo 62 grain, good ammo at a reasonable price 

[scatman]

Hornady makes critical defense in some rifle calibers, including .223, also Winchester SilverTip, Hornady V-max, and Barnes TSX function rather well. Hornady V-max if you're super worried about over penetration, the projectiles hit the target with an incredible amount of speed and upon impact fragment into nothing. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by scatman

[pop pop]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Will be online and ordering some soon. 

[pop pop]

Just ordered 200 rounds of 223 Federal Fusion 62 gr MSR for the new AR. Got several practice rounds on hand both in 556 and 223. In your opinion which is the better caliber 556 or 223? I carried 556 in my M-16 while in Vietnam. Haven't fooled with these calibers much since 1967-68. 

[BigK]

22 minutes ago, pop pop said:

Just ordered 200 rounds of 223 Federal Fusion 62 gr MSR for the new AR. Got several practice rounds on hand both in 556 and 223. In your opinion which is the better caliber 556 or 223? I carried 556 in my M-16 while in Vietnam. Haven't fooled with these calibers much since 1967-68. 

The only time I worry about 5.56 vs .223 is when I'm buying the rifle. A .223 rifle can't shoot 5.56 because it produces too much pressure, but a 5.56 rifle can shoot either.

The hotter 5.56 round should have slightly more range and speed, but I  wouldn't pay more for 5.56 for the amount of difference in performance. I've never missed a target because I was shooting .223 instead of 5.56. I can find .223 cheaper, so that's all I shoot.

[pop pop]

Thanks BigK. The Federal fusion was 28.00 per box of 20. Not cheap in my book, then had to pay tax, and shipping. Got it from Lucky Gunner in Knoxville TN. In Vietnam these caliber rifles were not known for being reliable or hugely powerful man stopper.  Guess ammo has gotten better, and things have changed in the reliability corner as well. I was in the Air Force and our 16's would fire, but the rest of the branches of Military had serious problems with theirs. Was later found a problem with the powders uses in the other branches M 16 ammo. 

[Defender]

10 minutes ago, pop pop said:

Thanks BigK. The Federal fusion was 28.00 per box of 20. Not cheap in my book, then had to pay tax, and shipping. Got it from Lucky Gunner in Knoxville TN. In Vietnam these caliber rifles were not known for being reliable or hugely powerful man stopper.  Guess ammo has gotten better, and things have changed in the reliability corner as well. I was in the Air Force and our 16's would fire, but the rest of the branches of Military had serious problems with theirs. Was later found a problem with the powders uses in the other branches M 16 ammo. 

All true,but its still not a great man sopper.  That's why the military is changing to a special version of 6.8mm ammo.  I've read a lot about it and they say its really good.  Of course, 6.8mm is available out here but the military version is supposedly not yet available to the general public.

[BigK]

24 minutes ago, Defender said:

All true,but its still not a great man sopper.  That's why the military is changing to a special version of 6.8mm ammo.  I've read a lot about it and they say its really good.  Of course, 6.8mm is available out here but the military version is supposedly not yet available to the general public.

I heard rumors of that too. I thought it was odd for them to go from .223 caliber to only .264 caliber. If they do, you won't hear me complain. That's much less competition for us for .223/5.56. 

[scatman]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:20 PM, BigK said:

I heard rumors of that too. I thought it was odd for them to go from .223 caliber to only .264 caliber. If they do, you won't hear me complain. That's much less competition for us for .223/5.56. 

The actual round by sig is called the .277 Fury (6.8 Common Round is the US Military name) with a projectile size of .277 vs the 5.56's .224 projectile. Sig claims this round to be similar to 6.5 Creedmore with a 10-20% flatter trajectory and more impact energy.

[BigK]

56 minutes ago, scatman said:

The actual round by sig is called the .277 Fury (6.8 Common Round is the US Military name) with a projectile size of .277 vs the 5.56's .224 projectile. Sig claims this round to be similar to 6.5 Creedmore with a 10-20% flatter trajectory and more impact energy.

They're taking some liberties with the math, LOL. Maybe their inches have less than 25.4 mm in them. 

[pop pop]

Received my Federal Fusion 62 Gr 223 ammo from Lucky Gunner yesterday evening at 6:00 PM. Had to go get my eyes checked today and they dilated my eyes so I can't see much this afternoon so I will not be taking the new AR to my range until tomorrow at the earliest. Looking forward to firing the new rifle. 

[TSG]

.223 Win chamber can only fire .223, .223 Wylde and 5.56 can fire both just fine.

There's a couple schools of thought for bullet selection too, even for self defense. Note that most 5.56/223 bullets will very easily pass through multiple interior walls with little issue. Overpenetration has been a hot topic for ages. Some Hornady TAP rounds for law enforcement use a VMax bullet extremely similar to the one used for varmint hunting in order to assuage such concerns. Others use heavier bullets more regard to balanced terminal performance, like 77gr Sierra Matchking bullets (ie, IMI Razorcore ammo) or 62gr bonded soft points (like the Fusions in the Federal MSR ammo you got). Another idea is to use what you train with and since M193 and M855 are readily available and proven, just stack those.

I think the Fusion ammo you got is a good multipurpose round. With prices still stupid and stock levels changing by the day due to recent events and false rumors, having ammo in hand at all seems like a win.

Springfield seems to have a rebate going on for some extra gear. Might be worth looking into.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/gear-up-2023-saint-hellion/

[pop pop]

My Saint came with the range bag, shown in the add, sights and sling mount so I could add it if needed. I know my A R is entry level, but it is all steel except for stock coverings. It is a little heavier because of the steel. I am satisfied with it. I went to Outpost Armory expecting to purchase the S W brand, but the saint was a better buy for my needs even though a couple hundred higher in price. I never really purchased the A R for home safety in mind, I have a shotgun for that. I purchased it just out of want. I have resisted purchasing one for years because they were underpowered for a hand-held rifle, IMO, I guess.

Not going to be able to get it out this week because I have a lot of demands on my time right now. I will be introducing/teaching a 20 Y O and is mom and dad, "newbies" about handguns, in general, this Saturday morning. His dad asked me to do it at church a month ago and told me Wednesday night they could do it this Saturday morning. We will be doing safety training, familiarity training, and first-time firing on my back yard range for all of them. Wish me much luck in this outing. I also have a young family, with 3 young boys, who want me to teach them also. Dad said he had no guns but thought it profitable for his boys to learn about guns. The boys are 14, 11, 9. Talked to their mom Wednesday night and told her she needed to come also. She said she would. I am lucky to have these opportunities to teach these young people. I enjoy it and they walk away not being fearful of guns afterwards. I adjust my teaching to the appropriate age lever. 

I guess I need to renew my NRA Instructor Training credentials???? I really like "Newbie" training. I must use the "KISS" training method, I know.  None of these have ever handled a weapon of any kind before. Starting out safety, then when firing first with 22 LR revolver/pistol, then onward and upward. 

[Defender]

1 hour ago, pop pop said:

My Saint came with the range bag, shown in the add, sights and sling mount so I could add it if needed. I know my A R is entry level, but it is all steel except for stock coverings. It is a little heavier because of the steel. I am satisfied with it. I went to Outpost Armory expecting to purchase the S W brand, but the saint was a better buy for my needs even though a couple hundred higher in price. I never really purchased the A R for home safety in mind, I have a shotgun for that. I purchased it just out of want. I have resisted purchasing one for years because they were underpowered for a hand-held rifle, IMO, I guess.

Not going to be able to get it out this week because I have a lot of demands on my time right now. I will be introducing/teaching a 20 Y O and is mom and dad, "newbies" about handguns, in general, this Saturday morning. His dad asked me to do it at church a month ago and told me Wednesday night they could do it this Saturday morning. We will be doing safety training, familiarity training, and first-time firing on my back yard range for all of them. Wish me much luck in this outing. I also have a young family, with 3 young boys, who want me to teach them also. Dad said he had no guns but thought it profitable for his boys to learn about guns. The boys are 14, 11, 9. Talked to their mom Wednesday night and told her she needed to come also. She said she would. I am lucky to have these opportunities to teach these young people. I enjoy it and they walk away not being fearful of guns afterwards. I adjust my teaching to the appropriate age lever. 

I guess I need to renew my NRA Instructor Training credentials???? I really like "Newbie" training. I must use the "KISS" training method, I know.  None of these have ever handled a weapon of any kind before. Starting out safety, then when firing first with 22 LR revolver/pistol, then onward and upward. 

We need to keep doing this so we keep the 3nd amendment alive.

[krunchnik]

On 11/3/2023 at 2:39 PM, pop pop said:

Thanks BigK. The Federal fusion was 28.00 per box of 20. Not cheap in my book, then had to pay tax, and shipping. Got it from Lucky Gunner in Knoxville TN. In Vietnam these caliber rifles were not known for being reliable or hugely powerful man stopper.  Guess ammo has gotten better, and things have changed in the reliability corner as well. I was in the Air Force and our 16's would fire, but the rest of the branches of Military had serious problems with theirs. Was later found a problem with the powders uses in the other branches M 16 ammo. 

I have 5 AR's in .22 mag-.556 and .300BO and all five have had zero stoppages thru 100's of rounds-

I think the reliability thing is a lot more common in firearms that are not cared for-

When I was the armorer at the old Range USA we had 3 regular .556 and a full auto 9mm that ran for thousands of rounds with no problems-

In 3 years I replaced 2 bolts and a few ejector springs and that was about it-

Weekends these saw heavy usage with no problems-

Another weak point I found is that magazine problems were the main culprit-

[TSG]

If you find .223 underpowered, you could always look into cartridges like 6.5 Grendel. Quite a few cartridge options for ARs, and swapping is pretty quick (upper, sometimes bolt and magazine). Ammo can get expensive and hard to find though.

If ya like wood, I've seen some lovely wooden furniture around for ARs.

Best of luck with the trainings, weather looks like it should be quite nice this weekend.

[pop pop]

TSG, I have a 7MM 08 Savage Axis scoped for deer hunting, although it is not in an A R style form. Close to the 6.5 Creemore in power. Really like it, but after I purchased the rifle, my Diabetic neuropathy became so bad I am no longer able to hike nor walk very far any longer. I haven't been hunting in 3 years now.  This getting old is the pits! 

The 556/223 will do what I wanted it to do. 

[splinter36]

really curious how it shoots

[pop pop]

Splinter, hope to get it out next week. If I have time may get it out tomorrow with my students. I got some ammo laying out.