Any action on decriminalizing carrying in a posted location in TN?

[todarius]

I realize an attempt was made in 2023 to decriminalize carrying in a posted location (IIRC).  Is there any activity underway to try again in 2024?

[Steve M.]

I'm interested in finding out where we stand on this. I actually don't know exactly where the line is drawn on this to begin with. My friend up in MO says that up there if they post a sign you can still carry with a permit and that only if they notice and ask you to leave do you have to. 

Can't find the exact laws here but get the impression that it's a hard NO. So I just act accordingly.

[peejman]

My $0.02.... why bother? No one gets charged only with carrying past a sign. It's usually an add-on charge for people who've done something really stupid.  I'd much prefer our legislator work on fixing problems of much greater significance, there's plenty to choose from. 

[Defender]

7 minutes ago, peejman said:

My $0.02.... why bother? No one gets charged only with carrying past a sign. It's usually an add-on charge for people who've done something really stupid.  I'd much prefer our legislator work on fixing problems of much greater significance, there's plenty to choose from. 

While I agree, I'm always afraid that I'll be the exception that gets arrested by an overzealous LEO simply for carrying past the sign.  Seems like it shouldnt be that big a deal to simply remove the law or that part of it. When this came up before, some of the state legislators argued that property owners have rights and removing this would take away their rights.  I dont agree with that.  I mean, they can have the right to ask me to disarm or leave their property and if I refuse, THEN the law could be involved as a trespassing issue.  I like to follow the law and laws like this make a lawbreaker of many folks.

[peejman]

5 hours ago, Defender said:

While I agree, I'm always afraid that I'll be the exception that gets arrested by an overzealous LEO simply for carrying past the sign.  Seems like it shouldnt be that big a deal to simply remove the law or that part of it. When this came up before, some of the state legislators argued that property owners have rights and removing this would take away their rights.  I dont agree with that.  I mean, they can have the right to ask me to disarm or leave their property and if I refuse, THEN the law could be involved as a trespassing issue.  I like to follow the law and laws like this make a lawbreaker of many folks.

Meh, no cop likes paperwork so much as to arrest you for just that unless you get belligerent about it or otherwise make a nuisance of yourself.  In which case its just piled onto disorderly conduct, trespassing, disobeying an officer, and so on.....   Cops have better things to do as well. 

[papa61]

I cannot remember the TCA number, I'd have to look at the sign again. But I do believe it's a felony, and loss of right to own firearms goes with it. I would not want to be caught in a gun free building. Originally, there were conditions that had to be met before one could ban weapons on business property. Security, metal detectors, etc, but this was dropped. I have mixed feelings on this. I agree with property or business owners having the right to set rules but that gets into a gray area, what if the owner is a bigot? I just don't patronize businesses that post or publicly state firearms are unwelcome. Hell, I hate using walmart because of their stance on guns.

[monkeylizard]

It's a Class B misdemeanor. Fine up to $500. No loss of permit or gun any longer.

https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2021/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/section-39-17-1359/

[todarius]

 

2 hours ago, papa61 said:

I cannot remember the TCA number, I'd have to look at the sign again. But I do believe it's a felony, and loss of right to own firearms goes with it. I would not want to be caught in a gun free building. Originally, there were conditions that had to be met before one could ban weapons on business property. Security, metal detectors, etc, but this was dropped. I have mixed feelings on this. I agree with property or business owners having the right to set rules but that gets into a gray area, what if the owner is a bigot? I just don't patronize businesses that post or publicly state firearms are unwelcome. Hell, I hate using walmart because of their stance on guns.

I also think people being disarmed by the business owner should be able to sue if the business owner then does not provide any kind of security.  This is just like the liberals trying to simultaneously disarm the citizens and defund the police.

[papa61]

11 hours ago, todarius said:

 

I also think people being disarmed by the business owner should be able to sue if the business owner then does not provide any kind of security.  This is just like the liberals trying to simultaneously disarm the citizens and defund the police.

Lubys and Texas were sued many years back for that reason. Woman claimed she lost both parents because she was forced to leave her pistol in the car.

[Defender]

I remember that. I watched her testimony to I think it was the Texas legislature afterwards, in a campaign to change their carry laws.  She later went on to serve in their lehislature.

[peejman]

1 hour ago, papa61 said:

Lubys and Texas were sued many years back for that reason. Woman claimed she lost both parents because she was forced to leave her pistol in the car.

I remember that too, but not the details of the suit.  

The counter-point is they were not required to patronize that restaurant. Its not like the typical government buldings where you have no alternative. They chose to disarm and eat there. Choices have consequences. 

Don't misunderstand, I think the misdemeanor charge here is stupid.  But I don't put much effort into looking for signs and push come to shove, the brown truck will bring most of the things I need to the front porch. 

[BigK]

20 hours ago, peejman said:

Meh, no cop likes paperwork so much as to arrest you for just that unless you get belligerent about it or otherwise make a nuisance of yourself.  In which case its just piled onto disorderly conduct, trespassing, disobeying an officer, and so on.....   Cops have better things to do as well. 

I agree with you that the average LEO doesn't want to arrest anyone JUST for this. I'm less worried about an overzealous cop pressing the issue than I am about an overzealous business owner (like Randy Rayburn) wanting to make a mountain out of a mole hill. 

[Defender]

14 minutes ago, BigK said:

I agree with you that the average LEO doesn't want to arrest anyone JUST for this. I'm less worried about an overzealous cop pressing the issue than I am about an overzealous business owner (like Randy Rayburn) wanting to make a mountain out of a mole hill. 

I could see this happening. I've seen cops do things before that they really didnt want to do, but were goaded by someone.   I once got a ticket after a traffic accident from a cop who clearly was NOT going to give me one but for the demands of the other person involved. I went to court berceuse I thought the other guy and the cop were both  wrong.  The judge, who luckily was very aware of that particular intersection, sided with me and dismissed the ticket. He was a  bit of an a**h*** about it too to both the other guy and to the cop.  But I illustrate this to mean that BigK makes a great point.  I think this should be an easy fix, heck, other states have done it.  Owner is withing his rights to tell you to leave or disarm.  You go or face criminal trespass charge if you refuse.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Defender

[300winmag]

Most other states don't make it a weapons crime for someone, especially someone with a handgun carry permit, to walk past a 'no gun' sign.  Tennessee should at least provide an exception for people with handgun carry permits.

No guns signs are treated as a trespass issue in most states.  If a property owner sees you with a gun and does not want you there, the property owner must ask you to leave for not following his or her rules.  If you do not leave, then that turns into a trespass issue.

[Worriedman]

There is a House member who is very desirous of getting that legislation passed.  I suspect the house might, the Senate will not pass that, and probably the Governor would not sign it if passed.

[300winmag]

How is it harder to get restrictions reduced, such as the sign issue, for the enhanced carry permit than it is get unlicensed handgun carry passed through the legislature?

 

 

[Defender]

22 hours ago, Worriedman said:

There is a House member who is very desirous of getting that legislation passed.  I suspect the house might, the Senate will not pass that, and probably the Governor would not sign it if passed.

I remember last time this issue came up. there was much discussion about the rights of property owners, like decriminalizing would somehow take away their rights.  I call bull on that argument.  the property owners still have a right to have their own rules about their property.  If they see me carry, they can ask me to leave. If i don't, criminal trespass.  Property owner still maintains their own rules.  Should be easy peasy to pass.  Why is it not?

[btq96r]

I know I'm in the minority on this site, but I really don't have an issue with this law.  If it's changed, I won't be upset or even care too much...but there are way more important things to give priority and political capital towards achieving.

[Worriedman]

We have a statute that gives immunity to those business owners who do not deny constitutional rights within their premises. Mississippi allows their Enhanced Permit Holders to carry past signs, of course, they can also carry long guns.

[E4 No More]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:57 AM, peejman said:

I remember that too, but not the details of the suit.  

The counter-point is they were not required to patronize that restaurant. Its not like the typical government buldings where you have no alternative. They chose to disarm and eat there. Choices have consequences. 

Don't misunderstand, I think the misdemeanor charge here is stupid.  But I don't put much effort into looking for signs and push come to shove, the brown truck will bring most of the things I need to the front porch. 

Yeah, usually late and damaged.

[JN01]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:22 AM, Defender said:

I remember last time this issue came up. there was much discussion about the rights of property owners, like decriminalizing would somehow take away their rights.  I call bull on that argument.  the property owners still have a right to have their own rules about their property.  If they see me carry, they can ask me to leave. If i don't, criminal trespass.  Property owner still maintains their own rules.  Should be easy peasy to pass.  Why is it not?

I agree.  Property owners can require patrons to wear a shirt and shoes, but it is not a criminal offense if you walk into their store barefooted. 

[300winmag]

In Mississippi, you can legally carry handguns in K-12 schools and colleges with an enhanced MS carry license in addition to not worrying about weapons charges over no gun signs at private or public property.  You can also carry in all the courthouses in Mississippi as long as you stay outside the courtrooms with an enhanced MS carry license.  I am also pretty sure that if you have an enhanced license and carrying, you cannot be refused entry to MS local/state public property or asked to leave just for concealing a handgun.

Edited October 27, 2023 by 300winmag

[Worriedman]

5 hours ago, 300winmag said:

In Mississippi, you can legally carry handguns in K-12 schools and colleges with an enhanced MS carry license in addition to not worrying about weapons charges over no gun signs at private or public property.  You can also carry in all the courthouses in Mississippi as long as you stay outside the courtrooms with an enhanced MS carry license.  I am also pretty sure that if you have an enhanced license and carrying, you cannot be refused entry to MS local/state public property or asked to leave just for concealing a handgun.

You could carry in Court houses here till William Lamberth passed his bill in 2016 changing the word from room to house.  We tried to run that last year as a roll back and the Judges all had a fit.  They can carry in the court room.  We got no help from the Republicans either.

[Defender]

Just what exactly are the fears of our legislators and governor when it comes to little things like th9is?

[chances R]

Concealed means concealed until we live in a more favorable world, but you still have a choice to enter or not.