Israel Attacked (This will be interesting...)

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

What about those that financed them?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Who DOESN'T Finance them? I'm sure we do. That is another thing I'm not in favor of, but I cannot control, except by voting. (so basically, "cannot control", since it's likely actual votes don't really count for much anymore.)

Edited October 10, 2023 by OMCHamlin

[No_0ne]

2 hours ago, crc4 said:

I feel the same about dropping the bombs on Japan. I wasn't for the genocide of the Japanese. I was for the utter destruction of their ability to fight.

 

1 hour ago, OMCHamlin said:

Was it genocide to nuke Japan?

Recently (as in the last several years) there has been some interesting research into what ultimately led to the Japanese surrender at the end of WWII.  Reading through the minutes of the Imperial War councils immediately after the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was little to no discussion about either of these cities being destroyed, or the methods employed to do so.  It now seems that the final "nail in the coffin" which convinced the Japanese to throw in the towel was the Soviet declaration of war and the succeeding invasion of Japanese held territory by the Russians, rather than the use (or existence) of atomic weapons.  To the Japanese, there appeared to be no significant difference between the destruction in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the many cities destroyed earlier by conventional bombing.  Being potentially invaded by their traditional enemy Russia was another matter though ...

Offered as an interesting historical aside, with no bearing on the current discussion.  Please carry on ...

[crc4]

7 minutes ago, No_0ne said:

 

Recently (as in the last several years) there has been some interesting research into what ultimately led to the Japanese surrender at the end of WWII.  Reading through the minutes of the Imperial War councils immediately after the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was little to no discussion about either of these cities being destroyed, or the methods employed to do so.  It now seems that the final "nail in the coffin" which convinced the Japanese to throw in the towel was the Soviet declaration of war and the succeeding invasion of Japanese held territory by the Russians, rather than the use (or existence) of atomic weapons.  To the Japanese, there appeared to be no significant difference between the destruction in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the many cities destroyed earlier by conventional bombing.  Being potentially invaded by their traditional enemy Russia was another matter though ...

Offered as an interesting historical aside, with no bearing on the current discussion.  Please carry on ...

I'll add that Japan has never been more prosperous, more civil, more democratic than it is now. Anyone in Japan who knows history will say they'd rather be alive now than in 1937.

[TGO David]

I thought I was going to take a break from this thread for a while, but here I am just wanting to make one appeal to you all that I hope crosses party lines and partisanship thinking:

Carry your damned gun.

Do not for a moment think that it is unfathomable that a militant extremist could walk into Main Street Yourtown, USA and start attacking innocent civilians.  It has happened before in our country, and it is likely to happen again.  You can either be a helpless spectator, a victim, or a first responder.

Your choice.

 

 

[crc4]

1 minute ago, TGO David said:

I thought I was going to take a break from this thread for a while, but here I am just wanting to make one appeal to you all that I hope crosses party lines and partisanship thinking:

Carry your damned gun.

Do not for a moment think that it is unfathomable that a militant extremist could walk into Main Street Yourtown, USA and start attacking innocent civilians.  It has happened before in our country, and it is likely to happen again.  You can either be a helpless spectator, a victim, or a first responder.

Your choice.

 

 

You're right. This is exactly why multiculturalism in America has been a terrible mistake. Allowing uncivilized peoples into this country, giving them welfare, and not requiring them to assimilate into the American culture or be deported, has put the enemies of civilization in our cities, towns, and neighborhoods.

One only needs to look at housing projects, ghetto areas, junkie and bum camps to see that's happening all over America.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I thought I was going to take a break from this thread for a while, but here I am just wanting to make one appeal to you all that I hope crosses party lines and partisanship thinking:

Carry your damned gun.

Do not for a moment think that it is unfathomable that a militant extremist could walk into Main Street Yourtown, USA and start attacking innocent civilians.  It has happened before in our country, and it is likely to happen again.  You can either be a helpless spectator, a victim, or a first responder.

Your choice.

 

 

I find myself agreeing with you, yet again. I was thinking that earlier (not carry, but rather UP-gunning to a larger piece.) When "stuff" gets real, and they decide to pick on US, neither you, nor I, nor even "statistically speaking" get a say as to where it will start. It would actually be MORE chilling to see it start in a "heartland" area because that is SO unexpected.

Edited October 10, 2023 by OMCHamlin

[AuEagle]

Bottom Line.

Whoever, whatever is coming to hurt or kill your family, friends, or country, you eliminate  the threat by any means possible.

I'm angered by the savage massacre in Israel. I'm also angered that our own .g0v has opened our country for attack.

Watch your six & always remind those around you to do the same.

In regards to OMC's above post, if you don't carry a higher capacity weapon, at least carry extra magazines or speed loaders.

Edited October 10, 2023 by AuEagle

[TGO David]

31 minutes ago, crc4 said:

You're right. This is exactly why multiculturalism in America has been a terrible mistake. Allowing uncivilized peoples into this country, giving them welfare, and not requiring them to assimilate into the American culture or be deported, has put the enemies of civilization in our cities, towns, and neighborhoods.

One only needs to look at housing projects, ghetto areas, junkie and bum camps to see that's happening all over America.

Holy #### that's a jump right off the cliffs of Mt. Xenophobia and not at all what I said. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, TGO David said:

Holy #### that's a jump right off the cliffs of Mt. Xenophobia and not at all what I said. 

You SURE you didn't? How about "AI" TGO David? You gotta watch that crap these days, who's spoofing YOU?!

[Defender]

2 hours ago, TGO David said:

There's a whole segment of American society that is willing to demonstrate the truth of FAFO if that ever really happens.

 

Thats true, depending on where they go.  If they are a little smart they will pick unarmed targets.  I guess once that starts happening, we'll see just how anti gun the anti gunners are.

[TGO David]

1 minute ago, OMCHamlin said:

You SURE you didn't? How about "AI" TGO David? You gotta watch that crap these days, who's spoofing YOU?!

AI TGO David looks really different, though. He's easy to spot.

[Chucktshoes]

2 hours ago, TGO David said:

Dude, to hell with anyone who had any involvement in this.  On any side.  I don't need to be convinced that if you follow the money, it will lead you many dens of vipers.  It doesn't matter who they are, they need to be brought out into the light of day and then be dealt with swiftly and severely.

It feels like you're intent on making sure we know who's involved as if that will bring about some soothing moral equivalency that will ease the pain.

The agony of a dad burying his child isn't diminished by knowing that his own government was somehow complicit or somehow made moves on the chess board decades ago that lead to this moment.

My purpose in drawing attention to who is involved is that it is wise to know the real score to protect oneself from being manipulated into actions that are ultimately not in one’s own interests. Who’s really benefitting and who is really paying the cost in blood, treasure, and their souls. 
 

On that note, with respect to the reports of the beheaded babies that have struck so hard because it is absolutely horrific if true. I would like to remind you of the stories from the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait about Iraqi soldiers pulling babies from incubators and dashing them against the wall. Those stories weren’t true just like the stories of Snake Island and the Ghost of Kyiv more recently. In the early days of any conflict there is often the craziest and/or most horrific propaganda that gets spread. I don’t know if these reports are true or false and they could certainly be either. I’m just advocating caution in believing anything that isn’t independently multi-sourced verified and rushing to judgements on that information. 

2 hours ago, Hozzie said:

We finance all kinds of crap, so I guess we are ultimately responsible for all of it?  Death to America?

Maybe just to the villains in our government responsible. My non-interventionist positions have been pretty stable for all of the nearly 15 years I’ve been around here. I’d like to stop financing all of it and focus on fixing our own crap instead of stirring it up elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

You care to offer a solution?

I kinda have a bit. I have no issue with targeting and striking those responsible. I do have issue with not doing everything possible to minimize the loss of innocent life of those not actively involved. Gaza has been essentially an open air prison for the last 16 years. Get the women, elderly and kids out and flatten it. But one must come before the other. 

[BigK]

47 minutes ago, crc4 said:

You're right. This is exactly why multiculturalism in America has been a terrible mistake. Allowing uncivilized peoples into this country, giving them welfare, and not requiring them to assimilate into the American culture or be deported, has put the enemies of civilization in our cities, towns, and neighborhoods.

One only needs to look at housing projects, ghetto areas, junkie and bum camps to see that's happening all over America.

Take a look at Detroit. There's Muslim concentrations in areas where cops are scared to go and they've even had the nerve to call for Sharia Law in "their" communities.

[Links2k]

32 minutes ago, crc4 said:

You're right. This is exactly why multiculturalism in America has been a terrible mistake. Allowing uncivilized peoples into this country, giving them welfare, and not requiring them to assimilate into the American culture or be deported, has put the enemies of civilization in our cities, towns, and neighborhoods.

One only needs to look at housing projects, ghetto areas, junkie and bum camps to see that's happening all over America.

You know people said the same things about the Irish, Italians and others when they immigrated to this country?

You were right when you told chucktshoes that weren’t wearing a mask. I remember saying as much when you first joined TGO.  You came right in with similar opinions and the comfort of someone who lives in the same manner.  You’ve never worn a mask.  That’s for certain. 

It’s rare to see such hatred boldly on display. It’s truly sad!

One last thing, when you mentioned killing domestic terrorist, does that include the people who attacked the capitol?

[crc4]

28 minutes ago, TGO David said:

Holy #### that's a jump right off the cliffs of Mt. Xenophobia and not at all what I said. 

I'm not xenophobic at all. The melting pot works. The problem are those who don't melt into the pot. But allowing those who refuse to melt into civilization has always led to the destruction of that civilization. Name me a country in Europe that is better off with tens of thousands of the recent influx of aliens into their civilization.

I have friends and acquaintances who are Arabs, Chinese, South Koreans, Ashkenazi Jews, Indians, and others who celebrate their culture. I celebrate with them. They all, however, strive to be good Americans, support the American system of meritocracy, and consider themselves to be Americans in the best sense of the word.

A xenophobe I'm not. I am an American who chooses Western Civilization over religious fanaticism, sloth, welfare states, and meaningless handouts to those who choose to wallow in the cesspools they created and are satisfied to remain in them and wanting to drag me into their muck.

Edited October 10, 2023 by crc4

[crc4]

2 minutes ago, Links2k said:

You know people said the same things about the Irish, Italians and others when they immigrated to this country?

You were right when you told chucktshoes that weren’t wearing a mask. I remember saying as much when you first joined TGO.  You came right in with similar opinions and the comfort of someone who lives in the same manner.  You’ve never worn a mask.  That’s for certain. 

It’s rare to see such hatred boldly on display. It’s truly sad!

One last thing, when you mentioned killing domestic terrorist, does that include the people who attacked the capitol?

It's only hatred in the eyes of those who are triggered when I call a spade a spade, but that doesn't make me wrong.

Those who invaded the Capitol were wrong. Those who did damage should be prosecuted. Anyone who threw fire bombs, if any, should have been shot in the act. The same as the rioters in cities. 

 

[BigK]

4 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

On that note, with respect to the reports of the beheaded babies that have struck so hard because it is absolutely horrific if true. I would like to remind you of the stories from the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait about Iraqi soldiers pulling babies from incubators and dashing them against the wall. Those stories weren’t true just like the stories of Snake Island and the Ghost of Kyiv more recently. In the early days of any conflict there is often the craziest and/or most horrific propaganda that gets spread. I don’t know if these reports are true or false and they could certainly be either. I’m just advocating caution in believing anything that isn’t independently multi-sourced verified and rushing to judgements on that information. 

It's interesting how willing you are to believe Hamas is less guilty than they are while trying to convince us that Israel deserved this attack.

4 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I kinda have a bit. I have no issue with targeting and striking those responsible. I do have issue with not doing everything possible to minimize the loss of innocent life of those not actively involved. Gaza has been essentially an open air prison for the last 16 years. Get the women, elderly and kids out and flatten it. But one must come before the other. 

"Doing everything possible to minimize loss" is indistinguishable from "let's hug it out" in life/death situations with brutal, homicidal terrorists.

[Chucktshoes]

2 minutes ago, BigK said:

It's interesting how willing you are to believe Hamas is less guilty than they are while trying to convince us that Israel deserved this attack.

"Doing everything possible to minimize loss" is indistinguishable from "let's hug it out" in life/death situations with brutal, homicidal terrorists.

You do understand that Hamas and Gaza are not the same thing, right? One is a political and militant organization and the other is a geographic location that’s home to 2.2 million people. Half of them are children.  
 

The Israeli government absolutely had a hand in bringing this tragedy on its people by propping up and finding Hamas. The innocent people who died at their hands paid the price for their leader’s misdeeds. As is almost always the case. 
 

Why’d you cut off the second half of that sentence? “…loss of innocent life.” That part is important. Is the acknowledgement that there are innocents amongst the Palestinians inconvenient?

[crc4]

2 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

You do understand that Hamas and Gaza are not the same thing, right? One is a political and militant organization and the other is a geographic location that’s home to 2.2 million people. Half of them are children.  
 

The Israeli government absolutely had a hand in bringing this tragedy on its people by propping up and finding Hamas. The innocent people who died at their hands paid the price for their leader’s misdeeds. As is almost always the case. 
 

Why’d you cut off the second half of that sentence? “…loss of innocent life.” That part is important. Is the acknowledgement that there are innocents amongst the Palestinians inconvenient?

War and terrorism always means innocents will die. The goal is to make sure it's not YOUR innocents who die.

[BigK]

16 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

You do understand that Hamas and Gaza are not the same thing, right? One is a political and militant organization and the other is a geographic location that’s home to 2.2 million people. Half of them are children.  
 

The Israeli government absolutely had a hand in bringing this tragedy on its people by propping up and finding Hamas. The innocent people who died at their hands paid the price for their leader’s misdeeds. As is almost always the case. 
 

Why’d you cut off the second half of that sentence? “…loss of innocent life.” That part is important. Is the acknowledgement that there are innocents amongst the Palestinians inconvenient?

You do understand the that Palestinians in Gaza bred and raised Hamas, right? 

The wholly evil and disgusting acts Hamas committed that you have doubts about are NOT reciprocal acts for what you think Israel did to deserve these terrorist attacks. Do you think the people in NYC deserved what happened on 9/11 too?

I cut that off because is ludicrous to think people who raised terrorists to kill Israelis are innocent.

Edited October 10, 2023 by BigK

[crc4]

50 minutes ago, Defender said:

Thats true, depending on where they go.  If they are a little smart they will pick unarmed targets.  I guess once that starts happening, we'll see just how anti gun the anti gunners are.

I can promise that formally liberal anti-gun Jews are in gun shops today. Two of my Jewish friends have asked for gun advice in the last 24 hours and are taking their Temple and Synagogue protection up three levels to armed congregants at every service and occasion. 

Their eyes have been opened. Their complacency is over. They will defend themselves and I will help them.

Edited October 10, 2023 by crc4

[gregintenn]

12 minutes ago, crc4 said:

War and terrorism always means innocents will die. The goal is to make sure it's not YOUR innocents who die.

I can tell you this. I have a couple of “innocents” whom I do not wish to see drafted and sent into slaughter halfway around the world by the same damned politicians who have likely funded both sides of the debacle.

[Chucktshoes]

 

6 minutes ago, BigK said:

You do understand the that Palestinians in Gaza bred and raised Hamas, right? 

The idea that the wholly evil and disgusting acts Hamas committed that you have doubts about are NOT reciprocal  acts for what you think Israel did to deserve these terrorist attacks. Do you think the people in NYC deserved what happened on 9/11 too?

I cut that off because is ludicrous to think people who raised terrorists to kill Israelis are innocent.

 

Even the Israeli army can’t/won’t confirm the event took place.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-says-it-does-not-have-confirmation-about-allegations-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-/3014787

 

Nobody ever looked like a fool for waiting for the actual truth to shake out. It’s wise to always take enough time to make sure of the facts, especially when the story lines up a little too perfectly with the narrative you’ve already built in your head. 
 

No I don’t believe that the PEOPLE of NYC deserved what befell them. That doesn’t change the fact that I also still have strong suspicions that our government doesn’t have entirely clean hands on the matter. I made the distinction between who’s responsible/culpable and who usually pays the price more than once in this thread. 

[Defender]

14 minutes ago, crc4 said:

I can promise that formally liberal anti-gun Jews are in gun shops today. Two of my Jewish friends have asked for gun advice in the last 24 hours and are taking their Temple and Synagogue protection up three levels to armed congregants at every service and occasion. 

Their eyes have been opened. Their complacency is over. They will defend themselves and I will help them.

Good.  Bearing in mind what Jews have gone through in the past in many parts of the world, American Jews political beliefs as a group have always surprised me. Good to see that starting to change, though I hate the reason.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Defender

[Alleycat72]

Honestly I believe Israel shouldn't go in. I think they should tell Iran they want their people back and they want all of the people involved within 24 hours. After 24 hours Iran starts losing assets. Things like the entire navy. Every military base. Every nuclear site. If one hostage is killed, pick a city and give them a 24 hour notice to vacate it. After the 24 hours, remove the city from the Erath. Iran is the man behind the curtain. Glad I'm not in charge. Create such fear in terrorist states that they police themselves. Then we and every other country gets out of everyone else's business.