Israel Attacked (This will be interesting...)

[Grayfox54]

Ok, if y'all are finished acting like 3rd graders and stop throwing #### at each other, can we get back to the topic at hand and discuss it like rational adults?  

Greg makes a valid point. I don't remember when or how the U.S. became Globocop, but almost every time it happens it turns into a #### show. 

OTOH: Israel is our ally. They need, at the very least,  our moral support. Arguing if the nation should even exist is a moot point. They're there and they intend to stay. I fully support Israel and I do believe that they can deal with this without any help from us. If needed, I can see the U.S. providing medicine, food, etc to help the population. We might even get away with providing air support. But I greatly fear that if U.S. boots touch the ground, WW III will start. 

What we're dealing with here is a religious war. When religion is involved. no amount of facts, figures or common sense will make a bit of difference. Both sides believe God is on their side. Our best option is to just stand back and let 'em slug it out. 

Holy cow! While I was writing this at least a half dozen more posts have been made. Hot topic for sure. 

 

 

[gregintenn]

12 minutes ago, papa61 said:

I disagree with only the federal government policing us. The only function our federal government should attend to is maintaining the security of OUR nation. We do not need them policing us, we have state and local government for that. Maintaining our security sometimes involves fighting foreign wars, I try to elect leaders I trust to make that decision in our best interest.
You are correct on the rest, including our governments spectacular failure lately.

 

3 minutes ago, OMCHamlin said:

git, holy cow, the LAST thing I want is for OUR government (at least the present mess) to overly busy themselves being OUR "police".

But on the subject of that, I only care about that we absolutely HAVE interests throughout the rest of the world, and we should tend to things abroad to the extent that failing to do so would have a negative impact on US. What the "other evil empires" (okay, China) are doing now should make that clear.

Thanks for the clarification, men!

I should have said they should be policing our borders instead of Israel’s and Ukraine’s.

[deerslayer]

48 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Attempts for Israel to be at peace will never succeed because you can’t conquer territory in the manner required to form a nation within the post-WWII rules based western order. It’s entire design has been setup to prevent that. At the same time, Zionism, if it is to be successful, requires the full subjugation or expulsion of any dissident minority people groups along with the understanding of potential antagonist entities that there are zero restraints on retaliation to attacks. 
 

I’m no student of Zionism theory and I don’t have blue and white star of David flags in my flower bed, but I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush.  

[Chucktshoes]

24 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

To be fair, the original UN plan was a two state partition and there were already quite a few Israelis living in the house.  

True, but the Jews living there weren’t enforcing an apartheid ethno-state at the time. That tends to change the dynamic a bit.  

18 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I’m no student of Zionism theory and I don’t have blue and white star of David flags in my flower bed, but I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush.  

It is a broad brush because the subject is broad. I’m not attempting to single out Israel as being especially evil or anything, simply speaking of practicalities. You just can’t set up an ethno-state in the middle of a large non-ingroup population without keeping them fully under the thumb. Look at the history of European colonization and the end of that era for example after example of how it goes. I may not support the concept of Zionism, but I don’t blame the Zionists for understanding the assignment. 
 

To bring it closer to home, look at the history of this nation as it relates to the native Americans. Native tribes had to be thoroughly subjugated to allow for the creation of what became the United States. Folks get squeamish talking about it these days, but it is empirically the truth. 
 

 

*When I refer to Zionism and Zionists, that’s not an antisemitic shorthand for “the Jews”. I’m speaking of it in the definitional terms of it as a nationalist movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Equating criticisms of Zionism or Israel with antisemitism or hatred of Jewish people as a whole is a reductive position that I think harms the ability to substantively discuss the issues involved.*

[papa61]

39 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

Ok, if y'all are finished acting like 3rd graders and stop throwing #### at each other, can we get back to the topic at hand and discuss it like rational adults?  

Greg makes a valid point. I don't remember when or how the U.S. became Globocop, but almost every time it happens it turns into a #### show. 

OTOH: Israel is our ally. They need, at the very least,  our moral support. Arguing if the nation should even exist is a moot point. They're there and they intend to stay. I fully support Israel and I do believe that they can deal with this without any help from us. If needed, I can see the U.S. providing medicine, food, etc to help the population. We might even get away with providing air support. But I greatly fear that if U.S. boots touch the ground, WW III will start. 

What we're dealing with here is a religious war. When religion is involved. no amount of facts, figures or common sense will make a bit of difference. Both sides believe God is on their side. Our best option is to just stand back and let 'em slug it out. 

Holy cow! While I was writing this at least a half dozen more posts have been made. Hot topic for sure. 

 

 

#1 - probably not
 2 - you are totally correct
 3 - any support would be providing aid and comfort to the enemy in Palistinian eyes
 4 - yes, if we align with anyone it should be for our self interest as I said before. "humanitarian" aid is for charitible orginizations.
 5 - same here. 

We need a presence and an ally in the middle east. The U.S. has gotten friendly with the Saudi government in recent times which strained U.S. Israeli relations. If we do not support Israel now it could be bad for us.
Terrorists MUST be dealt with, although England probably considered the colonists as terrorists.

[deerslayer]

12 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

True, but the Jews living there weren’t enforcing an apartheid ethno-state at the time. That tends to change the dynamic a bit.  

It is a broad brush because the subject is broad. I’m not attempting to single out Israel as being especially evil or anything, simply speaking of practicalities. You just can’t set up an ethno-state in the middle of a large non-ingroup population without keeping them fully under the thumb. Look at the history of European colonization and the end of that era for example after example of how it goes. I may not support the concept of Zionism, but I don’t blame the Zionists for understanding the assignment. 
 

To bring it closer to home, look at the history of this nation as it relates to the native Americans. Native tribes had to be thoroughly subjugated to allow for the creation of what became the United States. Folks get squeamish talking about it these days, but it is empirically the truth. 
 

 

*When I refer to Zionism and Zionists, that’s not an antisemitic shorthand for “the Jews”. I’m speaking of it in the definitional terms of it as a nationalist movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Equating criticisms of Zionism or Israel with antisemitism or hatred of Jewish people as a whole is a reductive position that I think harms the ability to substantively discuss the issues involved.*

I know you’re not antisemitic, but I feel “apartheid” state is over the top.  Israel’s security situation is unique and drives most of their policy.  They released Gaza once, only to have Hamas take control of it and here we are.  Releasing Gaza or the West Bank is suicidal for them.  Historians can cite 1000s of years of events to support their claims on whether or not the state of Israel is legit, but the bottom line is they are surrounded by people who want them dead and they have to do what they have to do if they want to stay alive.  

[papa61]

15 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

True, but the Jews living there weren’t enforcing an apartheid ethno-state at the time. That tends to change the dynamic a bit.  

It is a broad brush because the subject is broad. I’m not attempting to single out Israel as being especially evil or anything, simply speaking of practicalities. You just can’t set up an ethno-state in the middle of a large non-ingroup population without keeping them fully under the thumb. Look at the history of European colonization and the end of that era for example after example of how it goes. I may not support the concept of Zionism, but I don’t blame the Zionists for understanding the assignment. 
 

To bring it closer to home, look at the history of this nation as it relates to the native Americans. Native tribes had to be thoroughly subjugated to allow for the creation of what became the United States. Folks get squeamish talking about it these days, but it is empirically the truth. 
 

 

*When I refer to Zionism and Zionists, that’s not an antisemitic shorthand for “the Jews”. I’m speaking of it in the definitional terms of it as a nationalist movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Equating criticisms of Zionism or Israel with antisemitism or hatred of Jewish people as a whole is a reductive position that I think harms the ability to substantively discuss the issues involved.*

Growth was natural, expansion was self preservation. The Jewish nation propagated and needed more land, they also had to create buffers against radical extremists bent on driving them out.
when Ben gave the sodbusters 40 acres to farm, he didn't think about them getting bigger. when they started fencing off his range and killing his cattle he had them all hung and took his 40 acres back. Israel has gotten too big to hang and they have U.S. backing up their fences.
While it may have been bad planning to relocate the Jews back to the middle east, most of us are not old enough to remember when there was no Israel. In my opinion, it is the Palestinians who refuse to live beside the Jews. All religion aside, Israel exists, the U.S. exists, history is written by the victors and revised by those who oppose them.

[Chucktshoes]

13 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I know you’re not antisemitic, but I feel “apartheid” state is over the top.  Israel’s security situation is unique and drives most of their policy.  They released Gaza once, only to have Hamas take control of it and here we are.  Releasing Gaza or the West Bank is suicidal for them.  Historians can cite 1000s of years of events to support their claims on whether or not the state of Israel is legit, but the bottom line is they are surrounded by people who want them dead and they have to do what they have to do if they want to stay alive.  

Even Israeli human rights organizations have labeled it an apartheid state along with Amnesty Intl., the UN and basically every other human rights org on the planet. You are 100% correct that their security situation as a nation drives their policy. The name for that policy is apartheid. 

https://www.wordnik.com/words/apartheid

• noun An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
• noun A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
• noun The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

[gregintenn]

All I know is that this series of events has put a serious damper on my Columbus Day celebrations.

[papa61]

1 minute ago, gregintenn said:

All I know is that this series of events has put a serious damper on my Columbus Day celebrations.

How ironic considering the comparison of U.S. and Israeli expansion 

[crc4]

 

Israel has the right to run their country as they see fit. If the Palestinians don't like it they can leave. Problem is, no other Arab/Muslim country wants them either. If Israel can't control their borders, who comes in, and what they wish to do as a country, then the hoards of Hamas will make a cesspool of Israel.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, papa61 said:

I don't know when Israel disarmed the population, I missed that. Used to be everyone had to engage in training and were encouraged to be armed….

The last time I was there was in Haifa and area, maybe 6-7 months before the Cole attack. I recall that roughly because the Cole impacted us by canceling a forward repair visit with another Amphibious Readiness Group in Haifa again, and actually getting us on “high as heck” readiness status to go over there and serve as the repair asset in that area (we were the Med deployed repair ship, USS Emory S Land). We were busy recalling personnel and loading big plates of steel for repairs.

ANYHOW, before I departed on a sea story, I must say I didn’t see a lot of strapped civilians, but their armed and uniformed reservists were mixed in amongst the general population pretty liberally. They had armored assets on the waterways and in certain locals.

[crc4]

Just now, OMCHamlin said:

 

ANYHOW, before I departed on a sea story, I must say I didn’t see a lot of strapped civilians, but their armed and uniformed reservists were mixed in amongst the general population pretty liberally. They had armored assets on the waterways and in certain locals.

Too many Israeli citizens have become complacent, depending on the IDF to be around the corner when trouble starts.

That's like US citizens depending on the police when BLM, social justice warriors, and the other woke wankers start looting, rioting, and burning down cities.

 

 

[papa61]

3 minutes ago, OMCHamlin said:

The last time I was there was in Haifa and area, maybe 6-7 months before the Cole attack. I recall that roughly because the Cole impacted us by canceling a forward repair visit with another Amphibious Readiness Group in Haifa again, and actually getting us on “high as heck” readiness status to go over there and serve as the repair asset in that area (we were the Med deployed repair ship, USS Emory S Land). We were busy recalling personnel and loading big plates of steel for repairs.

ANYHOW, before I departed on a sea story, I must say I didn’t see a lot of strapped civilians, but their armed and uniformed reservists were mixed in amongst the general population pretty liberally. They had armored assets on the waterways and in certain locals.

@gun sane linked an article in his thread https://www.timesofisrael.com/comparing-america-to-israel-on-gun-laws-is-dishonest-and-revealing/ explaining it. I think you would see a higher level of concealed carry there than here 10-15 years ago. I knew they were required to have military training, part of their version of homeland security a generation ago.

 

[Links2k]

2 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I’m of the view that the creation of Israel as it was done in the aftermath of WWII was done with the best of intentions, but there’s a saying about that path’s destination. 
 

Attempts for Israel to be at peace will never succeed because you can’t conquer territory in the manner required to form a nation within the post-WWII rules based western order. It’s entire design has been setup to prevent that. At the same time, Zionism, if it is to be successful, requires the full subjugation or expulsion of any dissident minority people groups along with the understanding of potential antagonist entities that there are zero restraints on retaliation to attacks. 
 

In an attempt to right the wrongs committed against Jews in Europe, Europeans took land outside of Europe that had belonged to folks who weren’t guilty of those wrongs. Land they had been on for over a thousand years. I don’t see how that situation will ever work. 

Imagine if your neighbors had a family living in their home and killed half of them. Then your other neighbors went in and kicked their butts and afterwards came to your house and said, “hey, we know you didn’t have anything to do with that whole mess but these folks said they used to live here before they got evicted a long time ago. You’re gonna give up half your house to them. Then over the next few years your new housemates took over more and more of your house. 
 

As to the second half (and primary point) of your post, I don’t see how your fears are unfounded. We had 80ish years of the liberal rules based order that kept things mostly peaceful. I strongly feel as if that time is quickly passing into the history books. 

I try not to post anymore, because arguing everyday is not my idea of a peaceful retirement. That being said, I think you summed up the situation very well. 
 

When it comes to Israel, I’ve always had an issue with the formation and expansion of a nation on someone else’s land. Pretty much how I feel about the formation of our country, and the treatment of natives. 
 

I don’t have any answers, but I’ll pose this question to everyone who has an opinion about the Israeli/Palestinian and Ukraine/Russia conflicts.  How would you feel if in order to settle these conflicts, the powers that be decide they would like to carve out and give the southeastern United States to the Ukrainians or Palestinians to form a new nation?

 

Also, I’m confused by the Americans who have no problem with Israeli expansion on Palestinian soil, while at the same time screaming for border walls in our country, and being ok with people being killed or maimed by floating razor buoys while attempting to migrate here. Are Americans afraid immigrants coming from the southern border are going to do to the United States what Israel has done and the world has allowed to occur in Palestine?

 

Finally, my very basic understanding of American support for Israel is twofold. The first is biblical. I don’t have to expound on that, because those who believe already know.  Secondly, it’s a necessary strategic military alliance. This is a conflict that will go until either Israel or Palestine is destroyed.  

[E4 No More]

The ignorance displayed in this thread is just astounding. I'm out of it!

[Links2k]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

Like any other unrest in the world, this has the US hog’s fingerprints all over it.

 

I can see the U.S. intelligence has knowledge of something suspicious occurring, but my intuition points the finger at Netanyahu’s corruption scandals and the troubles of his far right government.  What better way to tap down protest and unrest in Israel than to allow an attack on Israel?  Israeli intelligence is far too proficient not to have had an inkling that Hamas was planning an attack. 

[Links2k]

1 hour ago, papa61 said:
While it may have been bad planning to relocate the Jews back to the middle east, most of us are not old enough to remember when there was no Israel. In my opinion, it is the Palestinians who refuse to live beside the Jews. 

Using this logic, people on the southern border should stop complaining about the migrants seeking to become their neighbors?

46 minutes ago, crc4 said:

 

Israel has the right to run their country as they see fit. If the Palestinians don't like it they can leave. Problem is, no other Arab/Muslim country wants them either. If Israel can't control their borders, who comes in, and what they wish to do as a country, then the hoards of Hamas will make a cesspool of Israel.

 

Look at a map of 1947 to see how much land the Jews populated and how much land they possess today, then make an informed decision on who should be forced to leave. Israel has stolen Palestinian land with the blessings and financing of the United States.

 

[gregintenn]

34 minutes ago, Links2k said:

I can see the U.S. intelligence has knowledge of something suspicious occurring, but my intuition points the finger at Netanyahu’s corruption scandals and the troubles of his far right government.  What better way to tap down protest and unrest in Israel than to allow an attack on Israel?  Israeli intelligence is far too proficient not to have had an inkling that Hamas was planning an attack. 

I have no way of proving such an assertion, but I damn sure can't disprove it! Sometimes, there just aren't any "good guys".

[crc4]

4 minutes ago, Links2k said:

Using this logic, people on the southern border should stop complaining about the migrants seeking to become their neighbors?

Look at a map of 1947 to see how much land the Jews populated and how much land they possess today, then make an informed decision on who should be forced to leave. Israel has stolen Palestinian land with the blessings and financing of the United States.

 

I'm glad that Israel has it as war bounty. Israel was attacked time and again by those Arab/Muslim countries. Israel has learned that 'fences and borders make good good security.' Violation of that security should be met with severe consequences just as it should be in America whether at the border to repel illegal aliens, or in cities to stop carjackers, rioters, looters, rapists, and murderers.

[GlockSpock]

Let’s stop talking about the American borders in this thread. Neither of them are location in the Middle East. 

[papa61]

28 minutes ago, Links2k said:

Using this logic, people on the southern border should stop complaining about the migrants seeking to become their neighbors?

Look at a map of 1947 to see how much land the Jews populated and how much land they possess today, then make an informed decision on who should be forced to leave. Israel has stolen Palestinian land with the blessings and financing of the United States.

 

I cannot see what you are quoting, but if you want to leave your house open to whomever without vetting them,,,be my guest. as far as casualties from razor buoys, if you break the law you pay a price, just like if they tried to break into your house. Whether they need to be revised or not we have laws regarding immigration, they should be enforced. If you are feeling guilty about European expansion into America, you can return your land to me. I have enough native blood to claim it.

As I said before, Israel exists, countries expand, that is the way it works and the PLO and Hamas have constantly attacked Israel. Part of the expansion has been to halt incursions into Israel by making buffer zones.

[crc4]

23 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

Let’s stop talking about the American borders in this thread. Neither of them are location in the Middle East. 

If history and events aren't relevant and only exist in a vacuum, then the lessons of history and events are lost.

You cannot allow invaders and terrorists to dictate how you should act according to their desires. Europe has paid and will continue to pay the price for illegal aliens. So has America.

If you choose not to learn and make comparisons, that's your problem.

So far, your dictates about what should or can be discussed in this thread have no power. Hit the delete button if you're triggered.

Edited October 9, 2023 by crc4

[GlockSpock]

20 minutes ago, papa61 said:

I cannot see what you are quoting, but if you want to leave your house open to whomever without vetting them,,,be my guest. as far as casualties from razor buoys, if you break the law you pay a price, just like if they tried to break into your house. Whether they need to be revised or not we have laws regarding immigration, they should be enforced. If you are feeling guilty about European expansion into America, you can return your land to me. I have enough native blood to claim it.

As I said before, Israel exists, countries expand, that is the way it works and the PLO and Hamas have constantly attacked Israel. Part of the expansion has been to halt incursions into Israel by making buffer zones.

If a mother breaks into your house and you shoot

 

2 minutes ago, crc4 said:

If history and events aren't relevant and only exist in a vacuum, then the lessons of history and events are lost.

You cannot allow invaders and terrorists to dictate how you should act according to their desires. Europe has paid and will continue to pay the price for illegal aliens. So has America.

If you choose not to learn and make comparisons, that's your problem.

So far, your dictates about what chould or can be discussed in this thread have no power. Hit the delete button if you're triggered.

Is that supposed to be could, or should?

[papa61]

12 minutes ago, GlockSpock said:

If a mother breaks into your house and you shoot

 

Is that supposed to be could, or should?

if a mother breaks in, she will be arrested. If an armed mother breaks in she will most likely be shot. Who the criminal is makes no difference. A human life is a human life. there are good and bad mothers, fathers, children, no matter what race or belief. No, I do not wish to shoot anyone, ever. 
I do however hold a hard line, if you would steal from me you would take food from my children (who are all grown and feed themselves, just reference) if you would take food from my children you have no respect for life.
I believe in fighting for what belongs to you. How hard did the Palestinians fight the Egyptians who treated them no better than the Israelis?