Israel Attacked (This will be interesting...)

[Chucktshoes]

19 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Not that anyone gives a chit what I think, but if there is going to be a ban on political discourse, it would need to be absolute in order to be successful. This thread is proof that even the moderators can't behave themselves.

To leave a thread like open and expecting everyone to tiptoe around it is just asking for trouble.

You’re right that the prohibition only completely works when the ban is complete. It always leaks in around the edges though and sometimes something gets big enough that we have to at least attempt to make space for it. I’m personally always hopeful that things remain respectful. Sadly, I’m mostly wrong. Sometimes I’m not though. I think I remember the Ukraine thread dying out instead of being closed even with some widely diverging opinions there. That was a pretty good one. 
 

You are wrong about the first part of your first sentence. Your opinion does matter here. 

[Erik88]

39 minutes ago, TGO David said:

You know, I am honestly approaching the point where making people behave here is wearing thin with me.  We get dangerously close to me just telling you all to have at it and seeing if you can really survive open discourse when you pick at "the other side" with bait memes like this.

 

Out of all the responses in this thread, many of which aren't even on topic, and clearly break the no politics rule, you are most bothered by my GIF? While ignoring the 3-4 other GIFs posted here. Be honest with yourself, you have an issue with me. You've made it extremely obvious over the years. 

You can't even moderate objectively because of it. This thread is a #### show. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Erik88

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Chucktshoes said:

You’re right that the prohibition only completely works when the ban is complete. It always leaks in around the edges though and sometimes something gets big enough that we have to at least attempt to make space for it. I’m personally always hopeful that things remain respectful. Sadly, I’m mostly wrong. Sometimes I’m not though. I think I remember the Ukraine thread dying out instead of being closed even with some widely diverging opinions there. That was a pretty good one. 
 

You are wrong about the first part of your first sentence. Your opinion does matter here. 

Sometimes from the most UNEXPECTED places...

[gregintenn]

6 minutes ago, OMCHamlin said:

Lot of words, lots of "Oh no I'm not, but what are YOU?", but at the end of the day, the perception is there, and I'm clearly not the only one that sees it. Remember, many of us perceive that Hamas terrorists attacked Israel, not that "Israel is finally getting what's coming to them."  So there you go.  not a good look, unless you're comfortable with it...

I can tell you one thing I've learned about Chuck. His opinions are not always mainstream, and I don't always agree with them, but I can't recall one that wasn't well thought out and gave me pause to look at a subject in a totally new light.

[Guest]

Just now, gregintenn said:

I can tell you one thing I've learned about Chuck. His opinions are not always mainstream, and I don't always agree with them, but I can't recall one that wasn't well thought out and gave me pause to look at a subject in a totally new light.

Good for you, you added one truth about him, and so did I...

[gregintenn]

4 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Out of all the responses in this thread, many of which aren't even on topic, and clearly break the no politics rule, you are most bothered by my GIF? While ignoring the 3-4 other GIFs posted here. Be honest with yourself, you have an issue with me. You've made it extremely obvious over the years. 

You can't even moderate objectively because of it. This thread is a #### show. 

 

 

 

 

You hold the button that will fix this thread, Erik.

Sorry! I don't know why I thought you were a moderator.

Edited October 9, 2023 by gregintenn

[papa61]

1 minute ago, gregintenn said:

I can tell you one thing I've learned about Chuck. His opinions are not always mainstream, and I don't always agree with them, but I can't recall one that wasn't well thought out and gave me pause to look at a subject in a totally new light.

I was thinking the same. Have to check his profile but he was probably a Marine. LOL

[TGO David]

2 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Out of all the responses in this thread, many of which aren't even on topic, and clearly break the no politics rule, you are most bothered by my GIF? While ignoring the 3-4 other GIFs posted here. Be honest with yourself, you have an issue with me. You've made it extremely obvious over the years. 

You can't even moderate objectively because of it. This thread is a #### show.

Does the apartment I have inside your head rent-free also come with furniture??  

[Chucktshoes]

5 minutes ago, OMCHamlin said:

Lot of words, lots of "Oh no I'm not, but what are YOU?", but at the end of the day, the perception is there, and I'm clearly not the only one that sees it. Remember, many of us perceive that Hamas terrorists attacked Israel, not that "Israel is finally getting what's coming to them."  So there you go.  not a good look, unless you're comfortable with it...

Just like those that called me a racist when I condemned the BLM riots had no sway over me, I won’t be cowed by charges of anti-semitism because I question if our alliance with the nation-state of Israel actually serves our interests. 
 

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, if you’d like to get back to making the case that supporting Israel in their military response IS in the best interests of the American people, I’d love to get back to that conversation. 

[Chucktshoes]

3 minutes ago, papa61 said:

I was thinking the same. Have to check his profile but he was probably a Marine. LOL

Air Force. Didn’t do much militarying, but I did sit around in comfortable digs thinking about stuff.

[TGO David]

I really feel that trying to moderate political threads on TGO is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.  It can't be done.

I also feel that forbidding discussion of political things is a similar proposition.  Politics are so intertwined with firearms and firearms ownership that people drawn to guns and gun forums will also always be drawn to talking about political topics.  Even if the topics seemingly have nothing to do with guns.

At a fundamental level, all political topics involve force or the threat of force once you start making laws.  Instituting a law requires the threat of repercussions if the law isn't obeyed.  The government's answer to the question, "Or else - what?" always has been that they will use force to remove you from public or even the gene pool if you fail to comply.

We could try [again] to forbid anything political being discussed on TGO, but that also means people won't be allowed to talk about current events.  This doesn't appeal to me.

Or I could just tell people to grow the #### up and be ready to receive it if you dish it out and see who's left standing.

 

I swear, though.  The absolute intolerance of other opinions makes me think some of y'all pee sitting down.

 

[TGO David]

3 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, if you’d like to get back to making the case that supporting Israel in their military response IS in the best interests of the American people, I’d love to get back to that conversation. 

I think Israel should wipe Hamas off the map but it's hard (impossible?) to kill an ideology.  At best they'll just kick the can down the road by killing a generation, but they'll create a whole new generation of zealots who are seething with an even more intense fire by doing so.

This all feels like armchair quarterbacking, though.  Spectator sport.

What worries me is that the same people who hate Israel hate America and I really don't care what their reasons are or whether we or Israel have it coming.  The reality is that governments have it coming and that citizens are collateral damage.  I don't want my kids to be someone else's collateral damage.

That said, I'm pretty convinced this #### is coming to an America near you at some future point in time.  I hope I am wrong, but if it does, it's going to be all of our problem in a much more real way than bickering about it on the Internet.

 

[crc4]

If nothing else, this invasion of Israel shows the importance of the 2nd Amendment in America. Israel does not permit private citizens to own firearms. 

Now it's time for Israel to get their own 2nd Amendment and start killing the invaders.

While this won't affect those progressives who want to disarm Americans, this is the best example yet of why private ownership of firearms and the 2nd Amendment is the supreme amendment to the Constitution. Without the 2nd, none of the other amendments matter.

Edited October 9, 2023 by crc4

[TGO David]

14 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

 

You can't even moderate objectively because of it. This thread is a #### show. 

Oh, and I forgot... moderators are people too and get to have opinions, Karen.

 

[papa61]

3 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I really feel that trying to moderate political threads on TGO is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.  It can't be done.

I also feel that forbidding discussion of political things is a similar proposition.  Politics are so intertwined with firearms and firearms ownership that people drawn to guns and gun forums will also always be drawn to talking about political topics.  Even if the topics seemingly have nothing to do with guns.

At a fundamental level, all political topics involve force or the threat of force once you start making laws.  Instituting a law requires the threat of repercussions if the law isn't obeyed.  The government's answer to the question, "Or else - what?" always has been that they will use force to remove you from public or even the gene pool if you fail to comply.

We could try [again] to forbid anything political being discussed on TGO, but that also means people won't be allowed to talk about current events.  This doesn't appeal to me.

Or I could just tell people to grow the #### up and be ready to receive it if you dish it out and see who's left standing.

 

I swear, though.  The absolute intolerance of other opinions makes me thing some of y'all pee sitting down.

 

Air Force. Didn’t do much militarying, but I did sit around in comfortable digs thinking about stuff. 

 

damn, I knew it Chuck! Recruiter used similar tactics to get me in the Air Force...told him I'd sign if I could fly jets, that put an end to it with my vision LMAO!

 

David, a recent study said that men would be better off if they sat to pee. 

Otherwise, I'm an adult, maybe a bad tempered one but I can respect others as long as I receive the same and here if I do not I just ignore it.

[Chucktshoes]

1 minute ago, TGO David said:

I think Israel should wipe Hamas off the map but it's hard (impossible?) to kill an ideology.  At best they'll just kick the can down the road by killing a generation, but they'll create a whole new generation of zealots who are seething with an even more intense fire by doing so.

This all feels like armchair quarterbacking, though.  Spectator sport.

What worries me is that the same people who hate Israel hate America and I really don't care what their reasons are or whether we or Israel have it coming.  The reality is that governments have it coming and that citizens are collateral damage.  I don't want my kids to be someone else's collateral damage.

That said, I'm pretty convinced this #### is coming to an America near you at some future point in time.  I hope I am wrong, but if it does, it's going to be all of our problem in a much more real way than bickering about it on the Internet.

 

I’m of the view that the creation of Israel as it was done in the aftermath of WWII was done with the best of intentions, but there’s a saying about that path’s destination. 
 

Attempts for Israel to be at peace will never succeed because you can’t conquer territory in the manner required to form a nation within the post-WWII rules based western order. It’s entire design has been setup to prevent that. At the same time, Zionism, if it is to be successful, requires the full subjugation or expulsion of any dissident minority people groups along with the understanding of potential antagonist entities that there are zero restraints on retaliation to attacks. 
 

In an attempt to right the wrongs committed against Jews in Europe, Europeans took land outside of Europe that had belonged to folks who weren’t guilty of those wrongs. Land they had been on for over a thousand years. I don’t see how that situation will ever work. 

Imagine if your neighbors had a family living in their home and killed half of them. Then your other neighbors went in and kicked their butts and afterwards came to your house and said, “hey, we know you didn’t have anything to do with that whole mess but these folks said they used to live here before they got evicted a long time ago. You’re gonna give up half your house to them. Then over the next few years your new housemates took over more and more of your house. 
 

As to the second half (and primary point) of your post, I don’t see how your fears are unfounded. We had 80ish years of the liberal rules based order that kept things mostly peaceful. I strongly feel as if that time is quickly passing into the history books. 

[gregintenn]

42 minutes ago, OMCHamlin said:

Good for you, you added one truth about him, and so did I...

I’ve always enjoyed your posts as well. I’m not sure why this particular topic has your knickers in a twist.

[gregintenn]

Like any other unrest in the world, this has the US hog’s fingerprints all over it.

My only point in what I posted earlier is that the entire world would be a better place if the US stayed home and attended to its own problems. Our government is not the world’s police. The world does not want them to be the world’s police. I can’t recall anything the US gov hasn’t made worse by attempting to be the world’s police.

 

They should be OUR police. A job they’ve failed miserably at lately.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I’ve always enjoyed your posts as well. I’m not sure why this particular topic has your knickers in a twist.

git, the topic does not. I am surprised at what I honestly perceive as tones saying Israel "had this coming to them", I kind of recoil at that sentiment. Yet, on the other hand, once they pull their crap together, I won't have the same revulsion at seeing the IDF flatten Hamas.  I think that may be because of some popular cultural sentiments as : "don' start 'nutin, won't BE nutin." , or even the blockbuster; "FA-FO".

I guess I don't see Israel as the root of much of the worlds evil as others do. I don't know why that is. I DO have problems with other cultures and demographics based on direct observation and life experiences and I embrace those perceptions because they mean I'm not willfully blind. But on this side show, let's maybe just accept our differances and agree to disagree, and keep track of the actual war, (which appears to be expanding), not the cultural ones that will always exist in places like this, no matter how many pillows they spread around.

Edited October 9, 2023 by OMCHamlin

[RED333]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

[papa61]

21 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Like any other unrest in the world, this has the US hog’s fingerprints all over it.

My only point in what I posted earlier is that the entire world would be a better place if the US stayed home and attended to its own problems. Our government is not the world’s police. The world does not want them to be the world’s police. I can’t recall anything the US gov hasn’t made worse by attempting to be the world’s police.

 

They should be OUR police. A job they’ve failed miserably at lately.

I disagree with only the federal government policing us. The only function our federal government should attend to is maintaining the security of OUR nation. We do not need them policing us, we have state and local government for that. Maintaining our security sometimes involves fighting foreign wars, I try to elect leaders I trust to make that decision in our best interest.
You are correct on the rest, including our governments spectacular failure lately.

[papa61]

2 minutes ago, RED333 said:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Then there's that...

[deerslayer]

44 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

In an attempt to right the wrongs committed against Jews in Europe, Europeans took land outside of Europe that had belonged to folks who weren’t guilty of those wrongs. Land they had been on for over a thousand years. I don’t see how that situation will ever work. 

Imagine if your neighbors had a family living in their home and killed half of them. Then your other neighbors went in and kicked their butts and afterwards came to your house and said, “hey, we know you didn’t have anything to do with that whole mess but these folks said they used to live here before they got evicted a long time ago. You’re gonna give up half your house to them. Then over the next few years your new housemates took over more and more of your house. 

To be fair, the original UN plan was a two state partition and there were already quite a few Israelis living in the house.  

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Like any other unrest in the world, this has the US hog’s fingerprints all over it.

My only point in what I posted earlier is that the entire world would be a better place if the US stayed home and attended to its own problems. Our government is not the world’s police. The world does not want them to be the world’s police. I can’t recall anything the US gov hasn’t made worse by attempting to be the world’s police.

 

They should be OUR police. A job they’ve failed miserably at lately.

git, holy cow, the LAST thing I want is for OUR government (at least the present mess) to overly busy themselves being OUR "police".

But on the subject of that, I only care about that we absolutely HAVE interests throughout the rest of the world, and we should tend to things abroad to the extent that failing to do so would have a negative impact on US. What the "other evil empires" (okay, China) are doing now should make that clear.

[papa61]

I don't know when Israel disarmed the population, I missed that. Used to be everyone had to engage in training and were encouraged to be armed. I believe it is one's responsibility to maintain their own personal security and contribute to the security of a free state. How many countries have invaded Afghanastan? How many have been successful?
If 20% of all people in the US were armed at all times, how would 9/11 have turned out? No one would remember the date because it would not have happened. If 20% of the attendees of the festival where all of those people were taken hostage were armed it would have turned out much differently. If the representative in D.C. were armed he would not have been so easily carjacked. 

 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." MATT 24:43 - meaning, be prepared at all times.